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Potato Salad posted:On what basis? It's very hard to get a huge unconstitutional program through congress. comingafteryouall posted:Jewish conservatives have been OK with the apartheid state in Israel for a while now. No big shock that they think the model could work in the USA, too. This isn't antisemitism. It's just true.
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Nov 16, 2016 20:57
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fits my needs posted:Israel is all onboard as they are already moving to legalize the illegal settlements built on Palestinian land under the Trump administration. I think they figure since his daughter and grandchildren are Jewish he is going to be a stalwart ally. That bill isn't going to become law, it's their version of the 40th attempt to repeal Obamacare. It's optics, rallying the base for Jewish Home. Netanyahu is against it and the Israeli Supreme Court has ruled it unconstitutional in the past.
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Nov 16, 2016 20:58
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Washington Post and The NY Times are going to be the best sources of consistent investigative reporting you will find in US media. The Post tends to do better on political reporting but the Times has shown a nearly supernatural ability to root through intentionally obfuscated business dealings. If you have an amazon prime subscription you can get six months of the Post online for free and a reduced rate thereafter.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:01
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Isnt Pence the one who tried to do the registry thing in his state and had it shot down in the courts?
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Nov 16, 2016 21:02
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greatn posted:Senate filibuster, courts, 1st, 4th, and 5th amendments.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:03
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Furnaceface posted:Isnt Pence the one who tried to do the registry thing in his state and had it shot down in the courts? Yes, but now Donald owns the courts. God help us all.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:04
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fits my needs posted:Israel is all onboard as they are already moving to legalize the illegal settlements built on Palestinian land under the Trump administration. I think they figure since his daughter and grandchildren are Jewish he is going to be a stalwart ally. I saw a tweet from several pages ago talking about how the Israeli government was uneasy about Bannon's appointment. Seems Breitbart's reputation precedes itself, even there. Israel has a lot of problems but I do not think being Trump fanboys will be one of them.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:05
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Former Everything posted:You didn't address the second part of my question at all, which is "How should Democrats frame their messaging to these selected white working class members in the face of blatant lies by Republican candidates, including that their dreams will come true (among many, many others), in such a way that their policy-heavy messages won't be tuned out by the sort of person who can be convinced to vote for Donald Trump (e.g.) based solely on the strength of whatever nebulous lie has been told to them?" I don't know. I'm not the expert. But there should be a way of doing it. Otherwise you are arguing that Democrats simply have nothing to do anymore and should just accept they will lose all elections because Republicans have discovered the magic of lying. quote:Also, how did you get from "appeal to everyone" which I put in quotes because you said it to "appeal to whatever part of the white working class that used to vote for Democrats." How do you reconcile shaping a message to a group of voters who voted for Donald loving Trump (lol) while also maintaining the rest of your voter coalition? Some people who supported Trump also apparently supported Obama, so it's not impossible. Unless you are arguing that it's impossible to get people to vote for Trump AND people in the Democratic Coalition with the same message. In which case, the Democrats should pack their bags, since they won't be winning any more elections.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:05
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mcmagic posted:This isn't antisemitism. It's just true. Wow. Wow. Do you know this is exactly what *all* racists say about the object of their hate? No-one says "I hate black people because I'm an rear end in a top hat" - they say "I hate black people because they are criminals and lazy. Look up the crime and unemployment facts anytime. It's just true."
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Nov 16, 2016 21:07
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BarbarianElephant posted:Wow. Wow. Do you know this is exactly what *all* racists say about the object of their hate? No-one says "I hate black people because I'm an rear end in a top hat" - they say "I hate black people because they are criminals and lazy. Look up the crime and unemployment facts anytime. It's just true." Please bold perceived anti-semitism.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:08
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Ravenfood posted:That continuing to exist going forward remains in doubt, and Trump will have at least one SCOTUS nom, possibly more, plus over 100 more to spread out over the lower courts. They exist, sure, but I'm not sure your faith in them is well-founded. The Republicans aren't getting rid of the filibuster, mainly so that they are not held accountable to any of their promises. Even Scalia and Thomas would rule against a religious registration program.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:09
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greatn posted:Senate filibuster, courts, 1st, 4th, and 5th amendments. Courts and constitutional amendments work only so long as the government continues to operate in good faith and believes that the public will (or can) hold it accountable if it does not. The Senate filibuster works only so long as the Republican majority doesn't invoke the nuclear option and kill the filibuster, which I have no doubt they'd do if they had some reason to be confident they'd always be in the majority going forward. I should clarify that I don't necessarily think any of the above will happen, but just pointing out that we're putting a lot of faith in the government playing by the established rules to save us from the worst of Trumpism. With any luck, it'll end up being important that Trump got a smaller share of the popular vote, by percentage, than Romney did in 2012, meaning that the Republican government doesn't have the massive mandate it seems to think it does and is vulnerable to being roundly toppled in 2020 (probably not 2018, sadly). Of course, if you listen to the grimmest forecasters on Twitter, they'll tell you that it'll be too late by 2020, because Trump will have gotten the media under his control and most of America will believe the narrative that either a) everything is going fine, or b) everything that's going wrong is because of immigrants/people of color and if we can just get rid of them we'd be prosperous again, plus increased voter suppression efforts, etc., etc. But I keep coming back to that popular vote figure for comfort: it isn't necessarily true that the majority of the country is down with Trumpism, nor is it necessarily true that they'd be drawn in quite so wholly by a media trying to stay on Trump's good side.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:09
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BarbarianElephant posted:Wow. Wow. Do you know this is exactly what *all* racists say about the object of their hate? No-one says "I hate black people because I'm an rear end in a top hat" - they say "I hate black people because they are criminals and lazy. Look up the crime and unemployment facts anytime. It's just true." Are Jewish Conservatives not OK with Israeli apartheid?
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Nov 16, 2016 21:09
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Jewish people vote 3 for 1 to Democrats and all they get for it is this vile conspiracy stuff? Yuck.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:10
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Al-Saqr posted:Really America? A national registry? Really ?? You're really going allow them to place the groundwork for an actual nazi style registry and database? Really? The groundwork is already there, bud :/
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Nov 16, 2016 21:11
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BarbarianElephant posted:Jewish people vote 3 for 1 to Democrats and all they get for it is this vile conspiracy stuff? Yuck. There is no conspiracy. Jewish CONSERVATIVES (not Jews in general of which I am one) have proven themselves to be perfectly OK with Israel's crimes against humanity. That is just a fact.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:13
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mcmagic posted:It's very hard to get a huge unconstitutional program through congress. My understanding is we already basically have a registry. So....rule of law will suddenly start to apply? (This is less confrontational than I'm typing it)
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Nov 16, 2016 21:13
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BarbarianElephant posted:Jewish people vote 3 for 1 to Democrats and all they get for it is this vile conspiracy stuff? Yuck. You're purposely misrepresenting what's being said.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:14
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Potato Salad posted:My understanding is we already basically have a registry. So....rule of law will suddenly start to apply? There is a registry based on nationality, which is (broadly speaking) constitutional. A new registry explicitly based on religion would be examined under a much stricter test, and would almost certainly be ruled unconstitutional, and it's only "almost" certain because apparently we live in a post-certainty world.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:15
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Angry_Ed posted:So he dismantles it and in 2012 Romney/Huckabee/JEB!/Perry/Gingrich (pick your favorite) is elected on the wave of "The Muslim Hordes are infiltrating this country and we need to re-establish the PATRIOT Act", what now? Like do you honestly believe Democrats would win a messaging war about how the PATRIOT Act and Warrantless Wiretapping were bad? You could sell this country that getting stabbed through the eye with a needle every day would prevent terrorism and people would gladly do it. Wait you actually think the PATRIOT act is such a critically important issue that Obama could have lost if he tried to dismantle it? It has absolutely gently caress-all impact on an average person's life, I'm highly skeptical that the average person really cares about it at all.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:16
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BarbarianElephant posted:Wow, that went from 0 to anti-semitic surprisingly fast. Jesus Christ bud. In case you didnt know Israel is an apartheid, murderous state propped up by America's military technology. Lmao if you think saying the truth about Israel is anti-semitic.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:17
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mcmagic posted:Jewish CONSERVATIVES have proven themselves to be perfectly OK with Israel's crimes against humanity. That is just a fact. Nice anti-semitism you nazi 
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Nov 16, 2016 21:19
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DeathSandwich posted:You're purposely misrepresenting what's being said. If Trump said "I'll put all Muslims on a list, unless they are members of the Republican party" would you think he was being pretty fair?
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Nov 16, 2016 21:19
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Otherwise you are arguing that Democrats simply have nothing to do anymore and should just accept they will lose all elections because Republicans have discovered the magic of lying. Pedro De Heredia posted:In which case, the Democrats should pack their bags, since they won't be winning any more elections.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:20
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Covok posted:Yes, but now Donald owns the courts. Well, on the bright side that might qualify people for refugee status to get into Canada.  The down side is that we are also dumb up here and usually 10 years behind the US, so they get a decade of peace before we elect our own Trump. 
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Nov 16, 2016 21:20
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BarbarianElephant posted:Jewish people vote 3 for 1 to Democrats and all they get for it is this vile conspiracy stuff? Yuck. Are you real? I swear to god I'm not trying to backseat mod or tell anyone how to do their jobs (and frankly i know much of my posting is utter poo poo) but I've gotten month-long probations for posting content that is less lovely than this.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:21
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Jesus Christ bud. No, I don't like that either. There are many innocent people in Israel who don't agree politically with their leaders, including many Muslims remember. I don't want to drat a whole country. There are many countries with horrible leadership in the world, but people seem to be able to understand that say, not all North Koreans or Saudi Arabians love their government. With Israel, everything starts getting really weird really fast. If I was Jewish I'd feel that people who start frothing at the mouth about "Israel" and Israel only (when there are many terrible governments in the world) are probably not very far from getting pretty weird about Jews in general.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:23
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Harrow posted:With any luck, it'll end up being important that Trump got a smaller share of the popular vote, by percentage, than Romney did in 2012, meaning that the Republican government doesn't have the massive mandate it seems to think it does and is vulnerable to being roundly toppled in 2020 (probably not 2018, sadly). I don't think they care if they got a mandate or not. At any rate, they're just gearing up for 2018 where they have a decent shot at getting a supermajority in the senate. Most of the horrible poo poo is gonna happen after 2018.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:24
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MaxxBot posted:Wait you actually think the PATRIOT act is such a critically important issue that Obama could have lost if he tried to dismantle it? It has absolutely gently caress-all impact on an average person's life, I'm highly skeptical that the average person really cares about it at all. I was admittedly conflating warrantless wiretapping etc. all into the PATRIOT Act which was probably a bad decision on my part. Either way I felt that at least in 2008 people still thought that poo poo was fine. Hell even as recent as 2013 more people were in favor of the NSA's shenanigans than not. There is probably a decent chance by now that, in theory, we could roll some of that poo poo back, but it doesn't matter if the average person does care or not, because again the GOP would probably frame the messaging on it as "well now we're completely undefended against a sneak attack". It's basically the "tough on crime" paradox as applied to a national level. And the only reason I think the GOP would be able to do that is because I know several people who think that ISIS is somehow this uber-powerful group that is constantly infiltrating us, een though that isn't true.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:24
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BarbarianElephant posted:No, I don't like that either. There are many innocent people in Israel who don't agree politically with their leaders, including many Muslims remember. I don't want to drat a whole country.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:25
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Pedro De Heredia posted:I don't know. I'm not the expert. Lots of Hillbots liked to criticize some of Bernie's policies as unrealistic or using overly optimistic projections, some of their criticisms actually had some merit. Looking back though, Bernie's hyperbole is exactly what we need. You have to offer voters big, bold ideas and solutions that resonate with them, you have to give them some sort of hope for major change. Maybe those ideas will have to be pared down a bit to actually pass congress but if you start out pushing the compromise deal that will go through congress you're not going to excite anyone.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:25
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Tight Booty Shorts posted:Nice anti-semitism you nazi Ashkenazi
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Nov 16, 2016 21:26
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BarbarianElephant posted:Wow. Wow. Do you know this is exactly what *all* racists say about the object of their hate? No-one says "I hate black people because I'm an rear end in a top hat" - they say "I hate black people because they are criminals and lazy. Look up the crime and unemployment facts anytime. It's just true." Reconcile the continued discrimination of the Mizrahi and the Sephardi in a supposedly Jewish state tia
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Nov 16, 2016 21:27
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Do you think he knows what those are?
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Nov 16, 2016 21:28
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greatn posted:Do you think he knows what those are? No but I also don't think he's posting earnestly I'm trying to own myself the best I can
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Nov 16, 2016 21:30
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MaxxBot posted:Lots of Hillbots liked to criticize some of Bernie's policies as unrealistic or using overly optimistic projections, some of their criticisms actually had some merit. Looking back though, Bernie's hyperbole is exactly what we need. You have to offer voters big, bold ideas and solutions that resonate with them, you have to give them some sort of hope for major change. Maybe those ideas will have to be pared down a bit to actually pass congress but if you start out pushing the compromise deal that will go through congress you're not going to excite anyone. Honestly this was one of my biggest gripes with Obama. He had big ideas too but he gave away the farm seemingly at the beginning of any policy negotiation with the opposition so that any big bill he had instantly lost its core appeal before anything even got started legislatively. Aim high, that way what you end up with is closer to what you wanted originally. This is why I thought he should have just came out for single payer healthcare.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:30
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https://twitter.com/PeterAlexander/status/798986221703794688 LOL He's just throwing names of people he's seen on Fox News before against the wall.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:31
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VH4Ever posted:Honestly this was one of my biggest gripes with Obama. He had big ideas too but he gave away the farm seemingly at the beginning of any policy negotiation with the opposition so that any big bill he had instantly lost its core appeal before anything even got started legislatively. Aim high, that way what you end up with is closer to what you wanted originally. This is why I thought he should have just came out for single payer healthcare. Turns out people eventually figured out that he wasn't actually for these policies in any substantive way and they called Hillary's bluff when she tried to do the same thing Edit: Hillary calls bernies policies ridiculous and unrealistic, then almost loses the primary and magically adopts his entire platform. She took leftists for granted even though everyone on both sides knew it was bullshit. Turns out tepid incrementalism doesn't pan out when the opposing party gets seized by yahoos and conspiracy theorists and the establishment is made to bend the knee Business Gorillas fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Nov 16, 2016 |
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Nov 16, 2016 21:32
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Here's my question for Trump's transition team. Why won't anybody call Sean Hannity? Call Sean Hannity!
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Nov 16, 2016 21:32
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mcmagic posted:https://twitter.com/PeterAlexander/status/798986221703794688 I love that Rick Perry was one of the first established politicians to be pro-Trump and Trump still won't give him anything.
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Nov 16, 2016 21:33
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