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Alot of people here seem to be feeling more apocalyptic than last week for some reason. If there's a lack of rational or hopeful thought then I don't know what to think. Grouchio fucked around with this message at 07:36 on Nov 24, 2016 |
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Nov 24, 2016 07:33
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Trabisnikof posted:It reminds me of 2000. It doesn't matter that Gore should have won, Bush won even if unfairly and against the will of the people. Same with Trump. Yeah nothing will happen and no one cares. Its just ridiculous that this has happened twice in my lifetime. Although I think 2000 Bush has made this a much easier pill to swallow. I think of Bush as lube now for the loving I got this year.
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Nov 24, 2016 07:37
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Trabisnikof posted:Podesta was not the only hack and even the IC publicity stated it was Russia. I agree the jump to "they also hacked the voting machines" is a huge leap. But we shouldn't underplay the scale of hacks. Weeks after the DIA swore it was a state level attack it was revealed that no, John Podesta clicked on a phishing email. I'm going to say that accusing the Russians of hacking scantron machines in Wisconsin and Michigan that simply scan paper ballots and aren't network connected is a bit more than a "huge leap".
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Nov 24, 2016 07:40
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Grouchio posted:Alot of people here seem to be feeling more apocalyptic than last week for some reason. Optimism about the next few years is not rational at the moment.
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Nov 24, 2016 07:41
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Grouchio posted:Alot of people here seem to be feeling more apocalyptic than last week for some reason. One week of Trump repeatedly announcing that terrible person X will be appointed to important position Y will do that.
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Nov 24, 2016 07:42
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John_A_Tallon posted:The failsafe is that the national guard has more time to shoot down a plane that gets hijacked on the runway. Communication can be legitimately lost mid-flight. It's much more rare for it to happen on the ground. Also they close the doors before pushback, and you can't push back without the ground crew. quote:Weeks after the DIA swore it was a state level attack it was revealed that no, John Podesta clicked on a phishing email. Why do you think state level threats can't/don't phish? They do it all the time, since it's usually the easiest way to gain access to something.
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Nov 24, 2016 07:57
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Joementum posted:Weeks after the DIA swore it was a state level attack it was revealed that no, John Podesta clicked on a phishing email. Phishing emails are state level attacks. As is dumpster diving, if a state actor is involved in it. Just because a common vector was used doesn't make the attack and the other hacks not state actions. Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Nov 24, 2016 |
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Nov 24, 2016 08:03
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Paradoxish posted:Optimism about the next few years is not rational at the moment.
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Nov 24, 2016 08:06
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Grouchio posted:Even though I could possibly expect to go about my daily life regardless of whatever's going on in the White House? I still doubt that we'll start a trade war with China, which would make the upcoming recession therefore bearable? Am I no longer allowed to feel joy in my life and forced submit to fatalistic nihilism? NO There is a certain recognized ethical value in not being a delusional putz.
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Nov 24, 2016 08:08
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TildeATH posted:There is a certain recognized ethical value in not being a delusional putz. Agreed. What's our plan for taking down the Arpaio Duck Dynasty Death Camps?
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Nov 24, 2016 08:10
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Grouchio posted:Even though I could possibly expect to go about my daily life regardless of whatever's going on in the White House? I still doubt that we'll start a trade war with China, which would make the upcoming recession therefore bearable? Am I no longer allowed to feel joy in my life and forced submit to fatalistic nihilism? NO The fact that my life as a reasonably well off white male might not become literally unlivable is not cause for optimism imo edit- People in this thread are upset because a Trump administration and Republican controlled government is going to have very real and very negative effects on people's lives. I've made posts in these threads before about how much I hate the "most important election of our lives!" narrative that liberals love to trot out, but this poo poo does matter. People are going to die as a result of policy decisions made in the next four years.
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Nov 24, 2016 08:12
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Those election machines aren't secure, even if they never connect to the web themselves. I read somewhere that election officials have to plug in USB drives, etc to get them up and running. That's not to say that I don't think this is anything other than a wild goose chase.
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Nov 24, 2016 08:22
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Sir Tonk posted:We had to elect Trump to get the Dem to stop being terrible. Time will tell if it was worth it. No. The kind of destruction the next four to eight years are going to do to our democracy, to the lives of the vulnerable, to the state of public discourse, and to the climate aren't worth whatever sick sense of smug vindication some people are deriving from it.
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Nov 24, 2016 08:23
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Quorum posted:No. The kind of destruction the next four to eight years are going to do to our democracy, to the lives of the vulnerable, to the state of public discourse, and to the climate aren't worth whatever sick sense of smug vindication some people are deriving from it.
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Nov 24, 2016 08:25
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Grouchio posted:Were these same kinds of rhetoric spoken after the 2000 elections? Or is the radicalism of it all something worse than that? At least Bush wasn't an actual Fascist, just a neocon.
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Nov 24, 2016 08:27
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Grouchio posted:Were these same kinds of rhetoric spoken after the 2000 elections? Or is the radicalism of it all something worse than that? A lot of people thought it was bullshit that governor Bush won after some questionable poo poo in FL but not "oh gently caress the fascists are taking over" because everyone had an idea of where Bush was coming from and he laid out some actual policy.
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Nov 24, 2016 08:27
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Grouchio posted:Were these same kinds of rhetoric spoken after the 2000 elections? Or is the radicalism of it all something worse than that? Please compare the rhetoric of Donald Trump, appointer of white supremacists to cabinet-level positions, with the rhetoric of George W. Bush, he of "we are not at war with Islam" fame, and then get back to me. Bush was a disaster, and I'd argue that the smug vindication derived by... whoever after the 2000 elections wasn't worth the pain he put our country through over the eight years that followed. And Donald Trump is worse, and surrounding himself with worse people. It is bad and will continue to be bad. e: like, to forestall any accusations of doomsaying, it's not the apocalypse. The country and the world will still be here in four years, and probably even in eight years. But the longer Donald Trump and a unifiedish Republican Party control the levers of federal power, the more suffering and pain there will be in it, and the harder it will be to recover. Quorum fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Nov 24, 2016 |
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Nov 24, 2016 08:28
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Let's not forget the foreign death toll, we made a ton of corpses in Iraq.
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Nov 24, 2016 08:39
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Grouchio posted:Were these same kinds of rhetoric spoken after the 2000 elections? Or is the radicalism of it all something worse than that? Bush was more or less considered a moderate and you didn't get a lot of panic from the left until 2004, when most of the worst damage had already been done. Lots of people were rightfully upset at Gore essentially having the election stolen from him, but that's it. Trump is something different and the political landscape of 2016 is a lot different from 2000. People weren't freaked out about Bush winning in 2000, just like I don't think people would have been completely freaked out about Romney winning in 2012.
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Nov 24, 2016 08:46
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the green party should end up feeling pretty good about their publicity stunt, already pretty much funded and still a lot of time to go to really make some fuckin bank
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Nov 24, 2016 08:49
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It's good and logical to be worried about the next four years, but the amount of doomsaying in this thread is staggering.
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Nov 24, 2016 08:52
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 So that's happening then, I guess. Onward to a recount in the three states.
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Nov 24, 2016 08:52
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Grouchio posted:Even though I could possibly expect to go about my daily life regardless of whatever's going on in the White House? This isn't true for a significant (majority?) amount of people who voted for Hillary/against Trump.
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Nov 24, 2016 08:55
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Joe the Strummer posted:It's good and logical to be worried about the next four years, but the amount of doomsaying in this thread is staggering.
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Nov 24, 2016 08:57
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Joementum posted:Pretty funny that we went from "Donald Trump is threatening democracy itself by refusing to say he'd accept the results of the election" to "the Russians hacked the scantron machines in Wisconsin that aren't network connected". That would be funny if it were true yeah. I don't really get the impression any substantial number of people think anything is going to come of this or that the Russians are directly responsible for the election outcome. You'd be some kind of moron to suggest they didn't ATTEMPT to influence the election though.
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Nov 24, 2016 09:03
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King of Solomon posted:
I mean let's be honest is the margin small enough so that this recount even makes a lock of difference in any oft hose three?
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Nov 24, 2016 09:05
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Quorum posted:e: like, to forestall any accusations of doomsaying, it's not the apocalypse.
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Nov 24, 2016 09:06
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Grouchio posted:Even though I could possibly expect to go about my daily life regardless of whatever's going on in the White House? Are you eight years old, because how could anyone live through the 2008 recession and come out of it saying "oh gee whatever's going on in the White House doesn't affect me lol"
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Nov 24, 2016 09:24
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Captain Oblivious posted:That would be funny if it were true yeah. I don't really get the impression any substantial number of people think anything is going to come of this or that the Russians are directly responsible for the election outcome. I do think it's kind of funny that the last time everybody was freaking out this much about Russian influence in our elections was around the time of LBJ. With Tricky Dick and J. Edna Hoover looking for commie spies in every corner. At this point the reincarnation of Joseph McCarthy would easily get at least an internship in the DNC helping to hunt down those dirty Russian spies.
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Nov 24, 2016 09:25
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VitalSigns posted:Are you eight years old, because how could anyone live through the 2008 recession and come out of it saying "oh gee whatever's going on in the White House doesn't affect me lol" Some people will weather it far better than others, it's not weird to both understand that and also know where someone may stand in that context. It's wierd to openly talk about it though.
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Nov 24, 2016 09:29
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Would a standard recount even do anything if (hypothetically) the electronic voting machines themselves were programmed or tampered with in a way that selectively dropped a small percentage of votes, with no hard copy record? It seems like the only way to detect that would be to verify that the software on the machines is legit, and that the voting machines are working properly. After an election like this, I'd hope that there would be some routine testing procedure where voting machines are checked to make sure that their output is correct. I.e. you have volunteers or whatever under controlled conditions run like 500 test votes on a machine, and make sure the machine-tabulated output results matches the independently recorded inputs of the test voters.
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Nov 24, 2016 09:37
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Jill's current goal.
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Nov 24, 2016 09:43
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Spacebump posted:Jill's current goal. what a tremendous waste of money
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Nov 24, 2016 09:50
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Spacebump posted:Jill's current goal.
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Nov 24, 2016 09:51
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To the fatalism/nihilism conversation: "Hope is a longing for a future condition over which you have no agency; it means you are essentially powerless." I read this in an article by Derrick Jensen about environmentalism, but it rings true across all subjects, I think. https://orionmagazine.org/article/beyond-hope/ Hope all you want, but recognize that if that's all you do, you're giving up any philosophical right to bitch about the results. Put another way: Hope is what remains when action has failed. If you still think there's something you can do to avoid the negative outcomes you dread, go do it. Otherwise you'll have to get comfortable with whatever those in power decide to do with it. Note that I'm a terrible hypocrite and will probably do exactly what I've decried above, but that doesn't negate the underlying point at all.
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Nov 24, 2016 09:52
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Number_6 posted:Would a standard recount even do anything if (hypothetically) the electronic voting machines themselves were programmed or tampered with in a way that selectively dropped a small percentage of votes, with no hard copy record? It seems like the only way to detect that would be to verify that the software on the machines is legit, and that the voting machines are working properly. After an election like this, I'd hope that there would be some routine testing procedure where voting machines are checked to make sure that their output is correct. I.e. you have volunteers or whatever under controlled conditions run like 500 test votes on a machine, and make sure the machine-tabulated output results matches the independently recorded inputs of the test voters. Nate Silver put up an article explaining that once you adjust for demographic differences, the election results come out the same http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/demographics-not-hacking-explain-the-election-results/ There is no evidince of fraud. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Nov 24, 2016 |
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Nov 24, 2016 10:03
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Al-Saqr posted:I mean let's be honest is the margin small enough so that this recount even makes a lock of difference in any oft hose three? Clinton getting Wisconsin and Michigan would put it at 258-280 for Trump, meaning they'd need to snag 12 faithless electors. That number of faithless electors in the modern era is unprecedented, but so are a lot of other things this election. I think faithless electors are more likely this election than normal due to Hillary's overwhelming popular vote win, and the amount of crazy that Trump promises to bring. Preventing someone like Trump from becoming President was the initial intent of the electoral college in the first place, after all. But it's still a tiny chance to get both Wisconsin and Michigan, and a tiny chance on top of that to get 12 faithless electors. But the chance is not zero. Well worth $7 million to pursue, especially if it's Jill Stein spending it. I think we learned in 2000 that no goodwill or favor is gained by the Democrats being the "adults" and accepting defeat gracefully.
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Nov 24, 2016 10:46
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This is probably a really dumb question but given the gap between poll data and election results, have all poll nerds and statisticians been lined up and shot? Or rather, has a postmortem happened on how virtually every independent model was so wrong? I get that it's an extremely dodgy science but from said science angle has any coherent reason of "how we missed this" arisen? I've heard the shame effect of people who were voting trump but didn't want to say so, and that "hillary's firewall" states weren't scrutinized as much in the final weeks, and that implicit biases wormed their way in somehow perhaps due to this being such an unconventional election. I just don't know of that how much of it is people just floating reasons and how much has turned up as "yeah, this is where we went wrong with our polling model". Also there's of course the mountain of hot takes about how the obama-voting whites in the rust belt flipping because of jobs. I totally get that argument, but how was it not noticed nor coming up in the numbers in, say, october?
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Nov 24, 2016 11:06
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Bhaal posted:This is probably a really dumb question but given the gap between poll data and election results, have all poll nerds and statisticians been lined up and shot? Well Sam Wang of PEC did eat a bug live, so I guess there's that.
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Nov 24, 2016 11:16
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Hello, I'm a totally unbiasiad reporter, but if you tell the truth about starving kids, then you're rice gets cut in half.
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Nov 24, 2016 11:21
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