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NewForumSoftware posted:I like that the moral realm has to play by the rules of gently caress the climate capitalism  about the end of industrial society if you want, I guess, but a moral realm that doesn't itneract with reality isn't relevant to much.edit: Like... in no way does anyone involved in DAPL protesting or even DAPL construction have the power to change the global order so idk it seems pointless to consider it in this context. wateroverfire fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 19:59
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wateroverfire posted:Even in the moral realm...
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Nov 28, 2016 20:01
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wateroverfire posted:
To judge by your posts, your idea of morality is built entirely of universal, inflexible rules with no contingent factors involved. Thus, having demonstrated you are a nitwit, your opinions on this subject would seem to be worthless.
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Nov 28, 2016 20:02
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wateroverfire posted:
honestly that's kind of how I feel about america's federal government in 2016 reality optional, profits mandatory wateroverfire posted:Like... in no way does anyone involved in DAPL protesting or even DAPL construction have the power to change the global order so idk it seems pointless to consider it in this context. congratulations, white people said this about the civil rights movement 60 years ago as well, keep fighting the good fight
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Nov 28, 2016 20:11
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twodot posted:Well, charitably either the protest believes there is an even safer means of transport whether it's a different route or different method (or even just delaying construction until other water sources can be secured), even if they may be technically wrong on safety statistics, or the protest wants to reduce or limit the US oil transport capability and this is just a convenient specific instance of a general problem. Both of those seem like supportable arguments, I couldn't comment on safety statistics, that seems like a boring technical detail I probably don't have the background for. Yeah, those seem like supportable arguments.
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Nov 28, 2016 20:16
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wateroverfire posted:Yeah, those seem like supportable arguments. Except it's already been disproven. They don't switch away from the less safe methods after completing the safer infrastructure. Their end goal is to flood the market with crude. They will use all the methods available, not the safest one. There is never been a case when, after completing a pipe run, they switch off rail or road. They utilize all three at the same, only increasing, rates.
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Nov 28, 2016 20:24
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wateroverfire posted:
You are really, really good at these false dichotomies. They're pointless bullshit, and not relevant at all to discussion, but you definitely have a talent for trotting them out. Let me blow your mind again : It is possible to have objections to certain business practices or decisions without demanding to roll back the Industrial Revolution. I didn't think the basic logic of nuance needed to be made fully explicit for you, but apparently I was incorrect.
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Nov 28, 2016 20:32
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CommieGIR posted:Two Dot knew I was using two different meanings of the word Right intentionally, and felt the need to lecture me on basic English which was frankly rather insulting. You don't get to pretend I was arguing in bad faith by saying "Oh look, you are using two different meanings of the word, you are obviously trying to obfuscate your point". The problem is that you are arguing for a right that only exists so long as you agree with the way it is exercised, which is rather contrary to the concept of a right in the first place.
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Nov 28, 2016 20:40
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Gobbeldygook posted:Let us all celebrate the Noble Savage who lived in harmony with the land and didn't need cell phones, vaccines, or antibiotics! Yeah, no, gently caress hunter-gatherers. It sounds like you have some ideas about native americans which might make you a bit biased about what side to take here.
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Nov 28, 2016 21:05
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Rodatose posted:It sounds like you have some ideas about native americans which might make you a bit biased about what side to take here. Uglycat posted:The people here belong to cultures that /remember/ what Turtle Island (what many folk call 'North America') looked like before the Bellows arrived. The Lakota were symbiotic with the Buffalo, and the white man /killed all the buffalo/, *DESTROYING* their way of life. If the buffalo had not been killed, they would have continued following them as a tribe. They had no need for gasoline with that lifestyle.
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Nov 28, 2016 21:11
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Maybe they should drop off some small pox blankets with those vaccines. I'm still surprised by people defending a bunch of fat white people who still hunger for oil despite the ever increasing demand for a clean environment. But I guess I really shouldn't. We'll all be dead of old age and heartattacks and selfishness is what will make America Great Again(tm). It's also cute a poster with a name like wateroverfire doesn't quite grasp the meaning of his username whatsoever.
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Nov 28, 2016 21:13
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Gobbeldygook posted:Maybe you should read the post I was responding to That's an interesting interpretation of that post.
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Nov 28, 2016 21:14
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Gobbeldygook posted:Maybe you should read the post I was responding to I read the post, as other people have, it just seems that you have some preexisting ideas about native americans that are getting tangled up in your view of what's happening/what other people are saying.
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Nov 28, 2016 21:20
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Hundreds of citizens from the 92% white city of Bismarck, ND - who were spared from early DAPL route plans by the Army Corps of Engineers - came out to show their support for military and law enforcement officials who are forcing the DAPL on natives. http://www.twincities.com/2016/11/26/hundreds-turn-out-in-bismarck-n-d-to-support-law-enforcement/
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Nov 28, 2016 21:40
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CommieGIR posted:Did it occur to you that was on purpose? Yeah it did, because you're arguing in bad faith and jumping between moral and legal constructs as a means to dodge any attempt to make you stick to a consistent position that can be engaged with. Disagree with you on the moral underpinnings of the protest? You fascist don't you understand these people have rights! Attempt to engage the legal backing of claimed rights that are supposedly being violated? You fascist don't you understand legal doesn't mean just! Jarmak fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 21:47
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Fansy posted:Hundreds of citizens from the 92% white city of Bismarck, ND - who were spared from early DAPL route plans by the Army Corps of Engineers - came out to show their support for military and law enforcement officials who are forcing the DAPL on natives. quote:Later into the assembly, Bismarck Police Chief Dan Donlin mingled with participants and shook hands as people left the rally, expressing his appreciation of the gesture. quote:"to take their Saturday off" 
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Nov 28, 2016 21:54
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Fansy posted:False. The route was originally set to cross the Missouri River just north of the 92% white city of Bismarck. which still doesn't involve ~white~ NIMBYs succeeding at complaining where natives wouldn't
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Nov 28, 2016 22:11
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Fansy posted:False. The route was originally set to cross the Missouri River just north of the 92% white city of Bismarck. Where does that document support that assertion? It shows the proposed pipeline in it's current location and I can't find any mention of a previous plan. Or did you think you could just throw up a 100+ page report and get away with claiming whatever you want because no one would actually read it to check?
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Nov 28, 2016 22:15
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Buckwheat Sings posted:I'm still surprised by people defending a bunch of fat white people who still hunger for oil despite the ever increasing demand for a clean environment. But I guess I really shouldn't. We'll all be dead of old age and heartattacks and selfishness is what will make America Great Again(tm). Holding the position that properly approved things get built even if someone gets real mad and goes protesting after failing to make a case during the planning process, for instance, to also disregard stupid loving NIMBY objections about a nuclear power plant or solar farm going up in sight of their lovely plot of land. suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 22:21
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In all my years I'll never understand why white people hate Native Americans so much. Y'all are arguing over the definition of the word "right" while people are getting amputations over access to clean water. Who gives a single flying gently caress if they didn't dot every i and cross every t on the "please don't poison our water" form 133-A? If this was a town of white people, would the posters in this thread arguing against #NODAPL be as vehement in their condemnation? I sincerely loving doubt it.
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Nov 28, 2016 22:25
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Poland Spring posted:In all my years I'll never understand why white people hate Native Americans so much. Y'all are arguing over the definition of the word "right" while people are getting amputations over access to clean water. Who gives a single flying gently caress if they didn't dot every i and cross every t on the "please don't poison our water" form 133-A? If this was a town of white people, would the posters in this thread arguing against #NODAPL be as vehement in their condemnation? I sincerely loving doubt it. I, for one, would happily see rich white landowner NIMBYs arrested over the same poo poo. Also actively refusing to even deal with the approval process beyond making patently unrealistic and ill-defined claims is way beyond not quite dotting every i and crossing every t.
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Nov 28, 2016 22:29
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Poland Spring posted:In all my years I'll never understand why white people hate Native Americans so much. Y'all are arguing over the definition of the word "right" while people are getting amputations over access to clean water. Who gives a single flying gently caress if they didn't dot every i and cross every t on the "please don't poison our water" form 133-A? If this was a town of white people, would the posters in this thread arguing against #NODAPL be as vehement in their condemnation? I sincerely loving doubt it.
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Nov 28, 2016 22:30
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Poland Spring posted:In all my years I'll never understand why white people hate Native Americans so much. Y'all are arguing over the definition of the word "right" while people are getting amputations over access to clean water. Who gives a single flying gently caress if they didn't dot every i and cross every t on the "please don't poison our water" form 133-A? If this was a town of white people, would the posters in this thread arguing against #NODAPL be as vehement in their condemnation? I sincerely loving doubt it. Yeah accept their water isn't getting poisoned, it's actually getting relocated and improved.
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Nov 28, 2016 22:31
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CommieGIR posted:No. They were not. Specifically, the DPL construction group hid/delayed discover of multiple sites. [citation loving needed]
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Nov 28, 2016 22:33
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Jarmak posted:Where does that document support that assertion? It shows the proposed pipeline in it's current location and I can't find any mention of a previous plan. Look at the picture on page 22. http://www.psc.nd.gov/database/documents/14-0842/001-030.pdf If you prefer secondary sources, you can also check out Wikipedia, ABC, or any mainstream news source reporting on the reroute. But this is their source. Jarmak posted:Or did you think you could just throw up a 100+ page report and get away with claiming whatever you want because no one would actually read it to check? I don't have a reason to make up news. Fansy fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 22:36
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Fansy posted:Look at the picture on page 22. The one that shows the pipeline going south of Bismarck like it currently is?
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Nov 28, 2016 22:38
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It's interesting to note that the idea of negotiating is completely foregone in the minds of Jarmak, blowjob, etc. The Lakota must stand aside or be ground into hamburger by cops and DAPL bulldozers. We must follow proper procedure, and if that procedure leads to us massacring elderly people in the name of oil, so much the better.
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Nov 28, 2016 22:42
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Fansy posted:Look at the picture on page 22. That does not count as a plan - it's literally the initial "let's make a bunch of candidate routes" stage. There wasn't a proposal to actually build the route upstream of Bismarck that was withdrawn and replaced by a proposal to build the route upstream of Standing Rock.
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Nov 28, 2016 22:42
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Poland Spring posted:In all my years I'll never understand why white people hate Native Americans so much. Y'all are arguing over the definition of the word "right" while people are getting amputations over access to clean water. Who gives a single flying gently caress if they didn't dot every i and cross every t on the "please don't poison our water" form 133-A? If this was a town of white people, would the posters in this thread arguing against #NODAPL be as vehement in their condemnation? I sincerely loving doubt it. NIMBYs are terrible no matter who they are. Probably the backlash in this thread would be stronger if they weren't Native Americans. For example, the people who oppose development and infrastructure under the guise of environmentalism but really to protect their property values ('California Liberals') are really terrible people. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 22:43
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Jarmak posted:The one that shows the pipeline going south of Bismarck like it currently is? It's very difficult to get people to accept a well known fact in this forum. Nobody to my knowledge is disputing that an initial route was planned north of Bismarck. It's widely reported on ABC, Wikipedia, and Dakota Access's own pdf:  It was shot down by the COE for environmental reasons. None of this is disputed, unless you're discussing it on the Something Awful forums.
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Nov 28, 2016 22:43
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Fansy posted:It's very difficult to get people to accept a well known fact in this forum. blowfish posted:That does not count as a plan - it's literally the initial "let's make a bunch of candidate routes" stage. There wasn't a proposal to actually build the route upstream of Bismarck that was withdrawn and replaced by a proposal to build the route upstream of Standing Rock.
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Nov 28, 2016 22:44
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silence_kit posted:NIMBYs are terrible no matter who they are. Probably the backlash in this thread would be stronger if they weren't Native Americans. People who oppose development and infrastructure under the guise of environmentalism but really to protect their property values are really terrible people. 'California Liberals' Thank you for admitting you have no soul.
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Nov 28, 2016 22:45
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blowfish posted:I, for one, would happily see rich white landowner NIMBYs arrested over the same poo poo. Also actively refusing to even deal with the approval process beyond making patently unrealistic and ill-defined claims is way beyond not quite dotting every i and crossing every t. Who gives a poo poo, there's people crippled for life over this and it looks very much like people are going to die in the next couple weeks, which shouldn't have to happen in the first place. There's procedures in place for ensuring safety and health in both sides of a protest that are blatantly not being followed. Even if the pipeline is "legal" their defense of it is not, and serious consideration must be made about the precedents things like this will set. I don't want how they handled this to become the standard for suppression of protests, especially considering how frequent and ubiquitous protests are becoming.
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Nov 28, 2016 22:46
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Fansy posted:It's very difficult to get people to accept a well known fact in this forum. ahh I was looking at the PDF page numbers not the page numbers printed on the document. Page 22 according to adobe was a map of the current pipeline.... because it's what's being proposed in the document. That still isn't showing what you claimed it did, and it's expressly not what wikipedia claims it is (and it's what wiki cites).... which kind of makes your "but wikipedia" claim kind of worthless.
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Nov 28, 2016 22:48
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And now there's some grudging acceptance of the fact there was a plan to route the pipeline north of the 92% white city of Bismarck (shot down by the Army Corps of Engineers) but the Something Awful forums now want to dispute the definition of "plan".
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Nov 28, 2016 22:48
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Poland Spring posted:Who gives a poo poo, there's people crippled for life over this and it looks very much like people are going to die in the next couple weeks, which shouldn't have happened in the first place. There's procedures in place for ensuring safety and health in both sides of a protest that are blatantly not being followed. Even if the pipeline is "legal" their defense of it is not, and serious consideration must be made about the precedents things like this will set. I don't want how they handled this to become the standard for suppression of protests, especially considering how frequent and ubiquitous protests are becoming.  "they just didn't dot every i and cross every t, you can't hold this minor thing against them" "actually they were being completely obstinate and unreasonable" "nevermind then, dotting every i and crossing every t isn't important according to my newly-shifted goalposts, what really counts is that my side are the good guys"also simultaneously holding the belief that american levels of police brutality are bad and that the protestors are dumb and wrong is possible. like ideally the police would just cordon off the camp and park a food cart at the way out, so that eventually the protestors will get hungry and leave to get to the food cart after which they get sent home/arrested/whatever, but the protest is still stupid and bad suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 22:50
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Fansy posted:And now there's some grudging acceptance of the fact there was a plan to route the pipeline north of the 92% white city of Bismarck (shot down by the Army Corps of Engineers) but the Something Awful forums now want to dispute the definition of "plan". No, uhh, that's not what that document shows at all. That wasn't grudging acceptance it was more like "well I can see how you could misunderstand this if you've never in your entire life read a project proposal, you're still wrong but I believe you weren't purposely trying to lie"
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Nov 28, 2016 22:53
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blowfish posted:
My goalpost was "who gives a poo poo about paperwork" so just keep on moving yours It's also possible to simultaneously jerk yourself off while posting apparently Edit: "I disagree with your posting!" "I am an excellent poster and am also very smart." "WHAT!? I DISAGREE WITH YOU AND AM NOW A RAVING LUNATIC! "Sigh, I am cool and calm about this. I am the better man." "NOT ME! I'M SO DUMB AND GODDAMN CRAZY!"I can do it too Poland Spring fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 22:53
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Jarmak posted:No, uhh, that's not what that document shows at all. drat, you're a lawyer, cop, and civil/enviromental engineer. You got a doctorate in forestry too?
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Nov 28, 2016 22:56
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Poland Spring posted:My goalpost was "who gives a poo poo about paperwork" so just keep on moving yours This guy in your post must have an extremely high opinion of himself.
suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Nov 28, 2016 |
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Nov 28, 2016 23:00
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