There is a spectrum haunting C-SPAM. I, on the contrary,

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > There is a spectrum haunting C-SPAM. I, on the contrary,

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Fiction: Apr 28, 2011

steinrokkan posted:

Middle class are the people who have escaped the proletarian life-defining condition of being beholden to capitalist's every whim due to being under a constant threat of poverty, and the idea that they are maligned for this is just hosed up.

I think you misunderstand my point. The middle class are part of the working class, not the capitalist one. They have every right to make a good living for themselves- the aim of socialism is to ensure that everyone is given the material benefits and opportunities those of us in the "middle class" have, and more.

# ? Nov 29, 2016 00:34

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# ? May 11, 2024 23:29

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Fiction posted:

That's right, both perform labor and create value for their bosses. The computer engineer might be scarcer because of the need for education which means they're given more benefits in order to stay, but neither of them have any say in what the corporation employing them does with its capital.

Class is also defined by its consciousness, and the "minor differences" between the two mean that practically speaking they have no shared class belonging as of now. The class system is more nuanced than a simple worker - rentier dichotomy.

# ? Nov 29, 2016 00:34

Fiction: Apr 28, 2011

It's a serious stretch to say that there's no intersection of class there. Obviously boug people have different priorities due to better education and opportunity to succeed, but middle class people are just as scared of not being able to pay their mortgages or retire as poor people are of having to miss their next meal. Their needs may differ in the short term but in the long term a good, stable life is all either person wants.

# ? Nov 29, 2016 00:37

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Karl Barks posted:

the voting class in athens was tiny, what are you talking about

It was small by modern standards, but encompassed as much as 20% of the population. Once you remove women, slaves, and resident aliens (remembering that Athens had no concept of birthright citizenship), the breadth of suffrage among ~~white~~ Athenian male citizens was fairly impressive. Socrates wasn't no landed gentleman.

Characterizing the "demos" the way he did is historically ignorant, full stop. He seems to have confused "demos" with "aristos."

# ? Nov 29, 2016 00:42

ChickenOfTomorrow: Nov 11, 2012; god damn it, you've got to be kind

steinrokkan posted:

There's no difference between a computer engineer and a burger flipper, duly noted.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h9nBmYhmkmI

# ? Nov 29, 2016 00:42

DOCTOR ZIMBARDO: May 8, 2006

Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:

It was small by modern standards, but encompassed as much as 20% of the population. Once you remove women, slaves, and resident aliens (remembering that Athens had no concept of birthright citizenship), the breadth of suffrage among ~~white~~ Athenian male citizens was fairly impressive. Socrates wasn't no landed gentleman.

Characterizing the "demos" the way he did is historically ignorant, full stop. He seems to have confused "demos" with "aristos."

Once you remove [a majority of overall people, who were all systematically excluded] the system is broadly representative!

# ? Nov 29, 2016 00:44

Karl Barks: Jan 21, 1981

Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:

It was small by modern standards, but encompassed as much as 20% of the population. Once you remove women, slaves, and resident aliens (remembering that Athens had no concept of birthright citizenship), the breadth of suffrage among ~~white~~ Athenian male citizens was fairly impressive. Socrates wasn't no landed gentleman.

Characterizing the "demos" the way he did is historically ignorant, full stop. He seems to have confused "demos" with "aristos."

do you see why these semantics matter to no one but yourself

# ? Nov 29, 2016 00:46

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Homework Explainer posted:

liberal democracy, or bourgeois democracy, is a system by which the working class is allowed to choose which members of the capitalist class will oppress them. political participation is functionally limited to such elections, and the amount of influence workers have on policy is negligible as access isn't given to the vast majority of people. if a member of the working class wants to participate they need capital, which by its very nature is difficult to acquire for workers, for obvious reasons. even if by some miracle a worker gets to a level of government where they might enact any kind of meaningful change, institutional inertia and the deep state � all of which are allayed against the working class and for the capitalist class � will logjam them.

now consider socialist democracy. in most cases there is one political party, though in pretty much every socialist country i can think of there are minority parties that function like interest groups for various constituences, like the chondoist party in the dprk or the sept. 3 society in the prc. where that ruling party differs from bourgeois parties is that the party is designed from the ground up to be a party of the workers, accessible to everyone and in practice something between what we picture as a typical political party and a meritocratic organization for social climbing. this is in addition to various mass organizations and unions workers can enter to make their voices heard either at the local level, the workplace level or the national level if the organization is high-profile enough. the tippy top of the party's food chain does often include high ranking bureaucrats and administrators, but that kind of formation doesn't seem particularly unique to socialist countries. governing in the modern era does require a certain level of experience within the machinery of the state (lol trump) and i'm not too bothered by the party structure essentially picking and choosing the right people to move upward in the executive ladder. the american myth is that "anyone" can grow up to be president, something we all have come to understand is a fiction. "anyone can grow up to join the politburo standing committee" might not roll off the tongue as nicely, but it's actually true. liu yunshan, for instance, was born to a family of farmers.

the point being, in a single party society rank and file citizens have a lot more opportunities to join the political process at all levels, and the party facilitates that. you can look at the membership of ruling socialist parties by occupation to see this borne out. even in market socialist china, rural peasants and industrial workers combined make up nearly half of all party membership. compare this to the united states. is some guy working the fields in california or on the assembly line in michigan ever going to have that kind of opportunity? will he ever really have a sniff at decision-making or input at any level? theoretically, he's supposed to. but in practice, no.

is there democracy in the united states, in the capitalist countries of the west? technically yeah. but democracy for whom? who really feels satisfied about their government at the end of the day? that's a key component of actually existing socialism, and it's something people in the former ussr cite as being a major factor in why they want a return to soviet power: besides the things like free cradle to grave health care and education, housing guarantees and the like, people remember a sense of community, a belief that they were personally involved in something greater than themselves and were active participants in it. east germans remember the stasi, sure. we can confidently say we don't want a return to that bit of actually existing socialism. but they also remember a time when they could ask the government to help them get a house for their families and within a month were given materials and instructions free of charge, and everyone in the neighborhood got together to build a new house for one of their friends.

This is literally all I wanted. Thank you.

Your analysis of liberal democracy is shallow and excludes America's rich history of direct democracy. But whatever. Contra you and PK, I do not reject socialist democracy out of hand. I acknowledge the value of the benefits you mention in your third and fourth paragraphs. It's a genuine shame that so far it has always come at the expense of a free press, free thought, free expression, and the general free flow of information. We'll have to agree to disagree on how we stack our hierarchy of values.

# ? Nov 29, 2016 01:03

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Karl Barks posted:

do you see why these semantics matter to no one but yourself

Did Nothing Wrong

# ? Nov 29, 2016 01:06

SSJ_naruto_2003: Oct 12, 2012

Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:

This is literally all I wanted. Thank you.

Your analysis of liberal democracy is shallow and excludes America's rich history of direct democracy. But whatever. Contra you and PK, I do not reject socialist democracy out of hand. I acknowledge the value of the benefits you mention in your third and fourth paragraphs. It's a genuine shame that so far it has always come at the expense of a free press, free thought, free expression, and the general free flow of information. We'll have to agree to disagree on how we stack our hierarchy of values.

hey you know i'd happily take one party having absolute power over the country if it meant i didn't have to toil away 60 hours a week trying to provide for myself.

namaste

# ? Nov 29, 2016 01:08

Peel: Dec 3, 2007

Minty posted:

also lol at "North Korea support,"

in hexplainer's anti-imperialism thread he got a guy heckling him for loving juche for posting an article from liberal north korea academics about how his favourite Wacky Foreigner tabloid story was made-up lol

some people will toss basic media sense if they think the alternative is being a 'tankie'

# ? Nov 29, 2016 01:15

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:

Your analysis of liberal democracy is shallow and excludes America's rich history of direct democracy.

The Founding Fathers created a constitutional system designed to suppress that direct democratic tradition so...

steinrokkan posted:

Class is also defined by its consciousness, and the "minor differences" between the two mean that practically speaking they have no shared class belonging as of now. The class system is more nuanced than a simple worker - rentier dichotomy.

Right now the "middle class" is - depending on who you ask - anywhere between roughly above the poverty line and a millionaire. So maybe middle class consciousness is poorly defined, fake, and stupid. Nobody is arguing that it doesn't exist, but we call it a false consciousness for a reason.

# ? Nov 29, 2016 01:25

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:

hey you know i'd happily take one party having absolute power over the country if it meant i didn't have to toil away 60 hours a week trying to provide for myself.

namaste

Well, maybe Donald Trump will help immiserate enough of the population over the next four years that the class of people who feel likewise will swell to the point where you can have your wish. Fingers crossed, eh?

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

The Founding Fathers created a constitutional system designed to suppress that direct democratic tradition so...

And they failed, clearly.

# ? Nov 29, 2016 01:28

Fiction: Apr 28, 2011

We literally just had a minority-party-vote executive elected.

# ? Nov 29, 2016 01:36

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:

And they failed, clearly.

The revolutionary period was marked by the radical formation of revolutionary councils, which administrated their own communities through direct patriotic participation. After independence was won, those councils were dissolved in favor of a republican system of governors, mayorships, and congresses. Who was eligible for those positions was strictly controlled, and who could elect people for those positions was also severely restricted. The franchise may have been slowly expanded over a couple centuries, but the republican superstructure is still in place. You might be able to vote on a referendum every few years, but when was the last time you participated in any kind of town hall meeting? When was the last time your town hall held a direct vote on anything?

# ? Nov 29, 2016 01:39

Tacky-Ass Rococco: Sep 7, 2010; by R. Guyovich

Fiction posted:

We literally just had a minority-party-vote executive elected.

Oh, sure, nationally we're still hosed. I meant that in the sense that a great majority of the Framer's work of suppressing democracy has been undone in the last two centuries. Particularly at a state level the Progressive legacy remains powerfully felt. Again, in my state, most significant legislation gets passed through direct democracy these days. State level politics is a pretty major part of the American political experience.

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

When was the last time your town hall held a direct vote on anything?

Half a million people live in this town. Yearly ballot measures seem more practical than constructing the world's largest hall.

Tacky-Ass Rococco fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Nov 29, 2016

# ? Nov 29, 2016 01:41

deadgoon: Dec 4, 2014; by FactsAreUseless

Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:

a free press, free thought, free expression, and the general free flow of information

~30 years of unrestricted speech from the extreme right wing have culminated in the election of donald trump

maybe, just maybe, it was a mistake to fetishize free speech to the point that it was allowed to be used as a weapon against the institutions that american democracy as we know it depends on

maybe the communists... were on to something...

# ? Nov 29, 2016 02:01

Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3: Nov 15, 2003

Fiction posted:

It's a serious stretch to say that there's no intersection of class there. Obviously boug people have different priorities due to better education and opportunity to succeed, but middle class people are just as scared of not being able to pay their mortgages or retire as poor people are of having to miss their next meal. Their needs may differ in the short term but in the long term a good, stable life is all either person wants.

I'll suggest to you that proper "middle class" (upper middle class actually but Americans don't want to admit how fall they have fallen) people have no debt or debt at rates lower than the returns on their other investments.

Middle class people still have to work to meet their needs but have enough money to make long term investments in the market.

Those people are distinct from working class, who have no investments.

# ? Nov 29, 2016 03:44

Aeolius: Jul 16, 2003; Simon Templeman Fanclub

Homework Explainer posted:

liberal democracy, or bourgeois democracy, is a system by which...

i'm really glad someone took the time to break the cycle of peeps talking past one another.

i was planning to attempt it myself by focusing on (and extensively excerpting) this article I linked earlier, but my commute is many hours long in each direction because [capitalism lol]

the article's title is, to its detriment, incredibly misleading; one might get the impression that Levins is setting up to talk about etiquette and sightseeing on a visit to Cuba. one would be dead wrong, though; what results is a long but incredibly insightful and fruitful meditation on the particularities and generalities of building a revolutionary democratic society — primarily focused on cuba but with occasional reference to other examples. its scope is broad, but with due deference to specifics; his eye is both to the structure and to the human. (at a fair few points, I might add, it almost seems like it was written to respond specifically to someone thinking along the lines of Rococo)

like, i'm a big fan of MR on the whole and have read a lot of what they've put out over some years, and this article definitely makes my short list for overall reading recommendations from it

# ? Nov 29, 2016 04:17

Larry Parrish: Jul 9, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:

lol what is this

The United States is a democratic republic. The fact one of the authors of the Federalist Papers decided to shorten "representative republic" to "republic" and "Athenian-style direct democracy" to "democracy" and argue for the former over the latter does not come close to negating this. What it demonstrates is your extremely shallow understanding of political organization. (Athens was itself a republic, by definition of the term.)

Nor does the fact that America was founded as an explicitly oligarchic republic. I live in a part of the country where citizens take part in direct democracy on a regular basis, and indeed, for better or for worse, where the electorate effectively serves as the actual legislature. But no, I agree, American democracy is a lie, and furthermore: nothing is true, everything is permitted.

If you're talking about California personally all my experience with directer democracy has done is convince me that the tyranny of the majority is real

# ? Nov 29, 2016 06:23

mike12345: Jul 14, 2008; "Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to answer that. It's one of the great mysteries."

anyone heard if @pisspiggranddad is still alive? just received news that another american volunteer died during an offensive, with details being released... today, or something.

# ? Nov 29, 2016 08:20

Scrabble Tournament: May 17, 2006; MY OLD-ASS AVATAR URL BROKE THE ADMIN PANEL, THANKS RADIUM

mike12345 posted:

anyone heard if @pisspiggranddad is still alive? just received news that another american volunteer died during an offensive, with details being released... today, or something.

https://twitter.com/ArmyStrang/status/803443788119232512

# ? Nov 29, 2016 08:23

mike12345: Jul 14, 2008; "Whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras, I'm not sure we'll ever be able to answer that. It's one of the great mysteries."

ok stay safe pisspig

e: and rip to the unknown volunteer

# ? Nov 29, 2016 08:25

Deimus: Aug 17, 2012

# ? Nov 29, 2016 12:46

deadgoon: Dec 4, 2014; by FactsAreUseless

are there any good introductions to Jeb! Thought

# ? Nov 29, 2016 12:56

Darkman Fanpage: Jul 4, 2012

deadgoon posted:

are there any good introductions to Jeb! Thought

Please Clap: A Meditation om Third-World Jeb!ism

# ? Nov 29, 2016 13:12

burnishedfume: Mar 8, 2011; You really are a louse...

deadgoon posted:

are there any good introductions to Jeb! Thought

Start with The Tortoise and the Hare: Protracted People's War in the 21st Century.

# ? Nov 29, 2016 14:58

Victory Position: Mar 16, 2004

and I was going to post about Jeb! Thought :smith:

oh well, hegel hegel hegel hegel hegel hegel hegel hegel hegel hegel

# ? Nov 29, 2016 16:10

Ruzihm: Aug 11, 2010; Group up and push mid, proletariat!

free market babyyy

# ? Nov 29, 2016 17:00

Top City Homo: Oct 15, 2014; Ramrod XTreme

Cyber Monday needs a dialectic analysis

# ? Nov 29, 2016 17:39

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

mike12345 posted:

anyone heard if @pisspiggranddad is still alive? just received news that another american volunteer died during an offensive, with details being released... today, or something.

https://twitter.com/PissPigGranddad/status/803599657247133696

I'm the guy who's mad about liking PissPigGranddad before he became a peoples' hero.

# ? Nov 29, 2016 20:25

Karl Barks: Jan 21, 1981

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

https://twitter.com/PissPigGranddad/status/803599657247133696

I'm the guy who's mad about liking PissPigGranddad before he became a peoples' hero.

tfw the irony boys are at war

# ? Nov 29, 2016 20:41

R. Guyovich: Dec 25, 1991

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

https://twitter.com/PissPigGranddad/status/803599657247133696

I'm the guy who's mad about liking PissPigGranddad before he became a peoples' hero.

hes gonna get a book deal lmao

# ? Nov 29, 2016 20:41

MizPiz: May 29, 2013; by Athanatos

Homework Explainer posted:

hes gonna get a book deal lmao

You say that like he doesn't deserve it. :colbert:

# ? Nov 29, 2016 20:47

Victory Position: Mar 16, 2004

Homework Explainer posted:

hes gonna get a book deal lmao

I'm managing a warehouse like a sucker :smith:

and I'm the only person who works in the warehouse, so I'm managing myself :unsmith:

# ? Nov 29, 2016 20:49

Dreddout: Oct 1, 2015; You must stay drunk on writing so reality cannot destroy you.

MizPiz posted:

You say that like he doesn't deserve it.

I can't wait till we get to call him a sellout!

# ? Nov 29, 2016 21:55

R. Guyovich: Dec 25, 1991

MizPiz posted:

You say that like he doesn't deserve it.

i didn't say that it's just gonna be funny to see the premier insider account of the ypg having to detail how he came by the twitter handle of "piss pig granddad"

# ? Nov 29, 2016 22:21

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Who would win in a fight, PPG or Caro

# ? Nov 29, 2016 22:23

Darkman Fanpage: Jul 4, 2012

Caro before he was tortured or after?

# ? Nov 30, 2016 00:47

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# ? May 11, 2024 23:29

SSJ_naruto_2003: Oct 12, 2012

PPG is a real irony boy I'm betting on him.

# ? Nov 30, 2016 01:42

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > The Goodmine > There is a spectrum haunting C-SPAM. I, on the contrary,

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