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Munchables
Feb 8, 2015

Ask/tell me about legal cannibalism

TheComicFiend posted:

Congrats! What's it about?

Anyone been following that dude in LA Weekly crapping on professional VAs because "they make 800 an hour how dare they demand more"?

I saw a twitter post about that yeah; somebody pointed out it's more like 800 for one day, once a month, if that. Then a guy commented saying that's still too much...

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Shemp the Stooge
Feb 23, 2001

Munchables posted:

I saw a twitter post about that yeah; somebody pointed out it's more like 800 for one day, once a month, if that. Then a guy commented saying that's still too much...

I read the article yesterday and at the time I read it there was 113 comments all of which were implying the author was an idiot. I have never seen comments so in agreement.

The writer used every disingenuous trick in the book. I think he even ended the article by mentioning most of the guild members were white.

TheComicFiend
Oct 4, 2013

Let's Survive
The best part was this exchange:
https://twitter.com/aimeecarrero/status/791537198294114304

Also John DiMaggio:
https://twitter.com/TheJohnDiMaggio/status/791541836347125760

Aaaaand one more gem:
https://twitter.com/DustyOldRoses/status/791553572966113280


The article in question:
http://www.laweekly.com/news/video-game-voice-actors-make-800-a-day-but-they-want-more-7538653

The Joe Man
Apr 7, 2007

Flirting With Apathetic Waitresses Since 1984

quote:

Still, it appears the voice actors are holding out for residual compensation, a fact of life for film and television actors but not for vocal-only talent.
If this is correct, yeah I have to agree with him that royalties are pretty retarded for VO unless you personally negotiate that with your client (which would be non-union by default).

Very special cases. One of my first giant clients was going to be a royalty deal (based on Steam sales) since neither I nor the developer really knew how successful it'd be and they came to me before it launched basically saying "this is going to be a bitch to deal with every month even though it's what we agreed upon" and I simply settled at my regular rates plus the previously agreed upon royalty percentage from the kickstarter campaign. They were totally right and we were both happy with it. If this article is legit and these big names are getting hoity-toity about their rates then honestly that's great news for not only me but the talented folks that I hire.

Speaking of which I have another gig coming up for a Kickstarter demo for a horror game. Will get more details soon. Need to find a young boy (12yrs oldish) for what seems at this time like a main part. This is just a demo though so if the kid flakes after it's done I can replace him with another. Get in touch if you have a good lead on this; I've never cast kids before. I'll throw you some bucks out of my cut if he works out/I hire him. Have a couple other parts that I'll be contacting some actors I've worked with previously about once the script is finalized (international devs; they're hiring an English writer to polish the script soon).

WarpedNaba posted:

I hope this means the death of the AAA games industry.
lol same

The Joe Man fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Oct 28, 2016

WarpedNaba
Feb 8, 2012

Being social makes me swell!
Eck, all of my little brothers are too old.

I hope this means the death of the AAA games industry.

Tlacuache
Jul 3, 2007
Cross my heart, smack me dead, stick a lobster on my head.


TheComicFiend posted:

Congrats! What's it about?

Anyone been following that dude in LA Weekly crapping on professional VAs because "they make 800 an hour how dare they demand more"?

Honestly? It's baby's first sci-fi erotica. But I did the best I could to elevate it and got a lot of accent and editing practice in. I severely undercharged for it but I learned a lot for the next one.

blinkeve1826
Jul 26, 2005

WELCOME TO THE NEW DEATH

The Joe Man posted:

If this is correct

It's not.

The Joe Man
Apr 7, 2007

Flirting With Apathetic Waitresses Since 1984
Might be holding a couple auditions soon or contacting folks directly for a smaller project. Waiting on budget confirmation.

Mihai Zetta
Aug 13, 2015

Hey, everyone!~ I've been in the shadows for a few years as a pseudo-goon and wanted to reach out and join the fun. I'm a Texas and NY/NJ-based actor and audio engineer. I started my career studying with blinkeve in NYC back in 2013, and currently work in games, animation (ADR with Media Blasters and prelay), radio plays, and ESL narration amongst other subjects. I also handle all audio production affairs for Austin, TX-based developer Team Dogpit as well as software Q.A., video production, promotions & boothbabing, and ~my first casting~ for their upcoming game Lotería del Adíos. I'm also quite fond of audio tech and engineering in general and am always happy to discuss equipment as well as production techniques with anyone seeking to learn or tweak their setup. Best wishes to all.

Name: Michael A. Zekas

Specialties: Approx. 16-80-ish Age Range, Accents, Villains of Many Types, Dandies/Fops, Anger & Angst-Heavy Characters, ESL Material (Audition requests are always welcome.)

Portfolio: michaelazekas.com & Character Demo

Contact: PMs or E-mail at michael(at)michaelazekas.com

Payment: PayPal, Google Wallet, Venmo, E-Check, Other Methods upon Agreement

WarpedNaba
Feb 8, 2012

Being social makes me swell!

The Joe Man posted:

Might be holding a couple auditions soon or contacting folks directly for a smaller project. Waiting on budget confirmation.

Hot piss, lemme know.



Sup nerd, looks like you came in at a good time.

blinkeve1826
Jul 26, 2005

WELCOME TO THE NEW DEATH

:3: :3: :3:

EVERYONE be nice to this person because he is one of my favorite people in the whole entire world <3

Also it looks like I made my Disney debut this past Monday?? But I totally missed it because I was filming in the middle of nowhere. I'm a couple of characters in a cute new series. Links to come.

Slanderer
May 6, 2007
I don't do VO, but I am in the process of recording a reading of a book for a friend, so I've been trying to pick up the basics so that the end result isn't too awful. I have a couple quick questions that I'm hoping someone might be able to answer.

1. Any good strategies for reducing the noise of a keyboard (or the rustling of papers) beyond just keeping the mic close enough to me and adjusting the gain appropriately? Or is this the kind of thing that would normally be edited out by an engineer (?).

2. Is there any significant different between a side-address mic and an end-address mic for voice? Do they have significantly different polar patterns, or do the different types of condenser mic elements have other advantages/disadvantages?

3. Do you generally wear headphones while recording? If so, do you like isolated headphones or semi-open ones? Or does that not matter if you only have them on one ear?

Thanks!

blinkeve1826
Jul 26, 2005

WELCOME TO THE NEW DEATH
For both an upcoming project and recalibrating my general center of operations for LA: Who here is based in LA and/or can work as an LA local for VO? Feel free to let me know here and/or send me an email with your demo and SA username to melanieehrlichcasting at gmail.

And to quickly address these:

Slanderer posted:

1. Any good strategies for reducing the noise of a keyboard (or the rustling of papers) beyond just keeping the mic close enough to me and adjusting the gain appropriately? Or is this the kind of thing that would normally be edited out by an engineer (?).

2. Is there any significant different between a side-address mic and an end-address mic for voice? Do they have significantly different polar patterns, or do the different types of condenser mic elements have other advantages/disadvantages?

3. Do you generally wear headphones while recording? If so, do you like isolated headphones or semi-open ones? Or does that not matter if you only have them on one ear?

Thanks!

1) The sensitive mics ideal for VO will pick up any and every noise you create on mic and it's nearly impossible to edit out sound occurring at the same time as narration, so voice actors become accustomed to staying fairly still (and being careful with movement/gesticulations) while narrating and then pausing for about a full second both before AND AFTER turning pages, coughing, doing a little dance, etc. to make sure such sounds don't bleed into the narration. You can "fix it in post" to some degree, but I'm a purist in that respect and will always advocate getting clean recordings/shots the first time so you don't need to try to do that.

2) I think this is most relevant in VO with regard to condenser mics and shotgun mics, in which case though shotgun mics do generally have tighter pickup patterns, it depends on the specs of the individual mic and, in the case of the average Joe recording from home, as long as you're properly soundproofed (which you should be or it won't matter how good your mic is) it won't make much difference.

3) Depends on the type of project; if I want to be more conversational and less conscious of how I sound while I'm recording, I'll forgo them. Generally I like to wear them, though. "Them" being closed-back/circumaural headphones, always and forever. Even with those you have to be careful with sound leakage; I'd never wear semi-open headphones in the booth. If it's just a favor for a friend kinda thing, though, you'll probably be fine with just keeping the volume low.

I type all this knowing there's a 50/50 chance my buddy Mihai up there will pop in extolling the virtues of his treasured IEMs and geeking out over polar patterns and mic specs shortly after I post this :3:

Slanderer
May 6, 2007
Thanks a lot for the response!

blinkeve1826 posted:

1) The sensitive mics ideal for VO will pick up any and every noise you create on mic and it's nearly impossible to edit out sound occurring at the same time as narration, so voice actors become accustomed to staying fairly still (and being careful with movement/gesticulations) while narrating and then pausing for about a full second both before AND AFTER turning pages, coughing, doing a little dance, etc. to make sure such sounds don't bleed into the narration. You can "fix it in post" to some degree, but I'm a purist in that respect and will always advocate getting clean recordings/shots the first time so you don't need to try to do that.

Yeah, this is a skill that I'm quickly realizing is crucial. I'm especially bad at fidgeting, which sucks when the sound of my hand brushing my knee is clearly picked up. I've settled for recording from my couch, which makes me comfortable enough to fidget less, even though it affects my breathing somewhat. Adding deliberate delays to make editting easier is something I'm barely starting to come to grips with, but hopefully I can start doing that after i gently caress up, or need to go to the next page. I've started using the shortcut for adding a label in audacity during recording to I can mark my fuckups for removal but IDK if there is an easier or better way to do it (I tried stopping, deleting the mistake, and restarting, but it messes me up half the time)

quote:

I think this is most relevant in VO with regard to condenser mics and shotgun mics, in which case though shotgun mics do generally have tighter pickup patterns, it depends on the specs of the individual mic and, in the case of the average Joe recording from home, as long as you're properly soundproofed (which you should be or it won't matter how good your mic is) it won't make much difference.

Ah, cool, thanks. I got worried that I had bought the completely wrong kind of mic or something, but I guess my side-address mic is just fine.

quote:

3) Depends on the type of project; if I want to be more conversational and less conscious of how I sound while I'm recording, I'll forgo them. Generally I like to wear them, though. "Them" being closed-back/circumaural headphones, always and forever. Even with those you have to be careful with sound leakage; I'd never wear semi-open headphones in the booth. If it's just a favor for a friend kinda thing, though, you'll probably be fine with just keeping the volume low.

Haha I feel like a moron for not realizing that my semi-closed headphones could be picked up (and they are, just barely). But since I'm only recording a single track,and my headphones are connected to the monitor output on my mic, I guess the net effect is that my recording might have some tiny amount of reverb? If so, I think I can live with that (my untrained-ear can't hear it in the recordings, but I'm also self-consciously focused on my dumb idiot voice, so who knows if it's there).

Grand Prize Winner
Feb 19, 2007


Hey all! A couple months back I recorded a little something, a kind of bad guy rant based on an old joke from the Kill Six Billion Demons thread in BSS. I just remembered this thread existed so here it is in two versions, one with effects and one without:

with effects: http://vocaroo.com/i/s19PdwKlZiNN
without: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0q5HQ23ROYm

I guess I'm looking for two different types of commentary. First, what do you think of the VO itself and how an I improve it? Second, how do you like the effects/what are they? Audition crashed after I exported the effects version but before I saved the project file, so all I've got are the original recording and the one with effects.

e: recorded on Adobe Audition with an SM58 clone with a pop shield. I/O was through a mixer with USB I/O.

Grand Prize Winner fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Nov 29, 2016

The Joe Man
Apr 7, 2007

Flirting With Apathetic Waitresses Since 1984

The Joe Man posted:

Might be holding a couple auditions soon or contacting folks directly for a smaller project. Waiting on budget confirmation.
PROJECT UPDATE
Price was apparently too high for them and they decided to go with a different option. Cut as many corners as possible too for my personal work while still budgeting $100 minimum for each required actor.

I refuse to underpay anyone so oh well!

JossiRossi
Jul 28, 2008

A little EQ, a touch of reverb, slap on some compression and there. That'll get your dickbutt jiggling.

The Joe Man posted:

PROJECT UPDATE
Price was apparently too high for them and they decided to go with a different option. Cut as many corners as possible too for my personal work while still budgeting $100 minimum for each required actor.

I refuse to underpay anyone so oh well!

Not like voice acting is all that important anyway :v: I'm sure the cheapest possible option is just as good as what you can pay for, right?



Right?

WarpedNaba
Feb 8, 2012

Being social makes me swell!
You'd think that with animated and non-visual productions (Movies, vidya, audiobooks) taking off, there'd be more demand for VAs, not less.

Cubemario
Apr 3, 2009
There's just an awful lot of us.

WarpedNaba
Feb 8, 2012

Being social makes me swell!
Talented VAs, then. Scott McNeil and Kath Soucie are gods, but not omnipresent ones.

The Joe Man
Apr 7, 2007

Flirting With Apathetic Waitresses Since 1984

WarpedNaba posted:

You'd think that with animated and non-visual productions (Movies, vidya, audiobooks) taking off, there'd be more demand for VAs, not less.
There's more demand from those who don't have any idea what professional-quality work is actually worth. To perfectly complement their ignorance, you have a flood of amateurs willing to work for pennies on poo poo like fiverr which negatively skews client expectations going forth.

It's a perfect storm of "ugh."

WarpedNaba
Feb 8, 2012

Being social makes me swell!
Oh. I mean, I did some work for exposure back in the day (For all the good that did me) but...

King Lou
Jun 3, 2004
They say the fittest shall survive, yet the unfit may live

When I was doing some spots for Spotify, the company that hired me was paying like $150 for a Spotify spot. The owner of the company caught wind of this and flipped out saying that we should get paid $50 a spot. He saw no value in actually using professional VO people. My friend, who was the producer of the spots, refused to cheap out. He quit there shortly after.

blinkeve1826
Jul 26, 2005

WELCOME TO THE NEW DEATH

King Lou posted:

When I was doing some spots for Spotify, the company that hired me was paying like $150 for a Spotify spot. The owner of the company caught wind of this and flipped out saying that we should get paid $50 a spot. He saw no value in actually using professional VO people. My friend, who was the producer of the spots, refused to cheap out. He quit there shortly after.

If that's who I think it is (if it's the person to whom you introduced me) then that does not surprise me. Our communication was brief but even from that I could tell he was a good dude.

blinkeve1826
Jul 26, 2005

WELCOME TO THE NEW DEATH
http://watchdisneyjunior.go.com/p-king-duckling/video/vdka3512036/01/08-barnyard-ballyhoo-three-friends-and-a-baby

You gotta log in with your parents' cable info like I do but check out Beverly Bison 4:08-6:36 :3:

SwitchbladeKult
Apr 4, 2012



"The warmth of life has entered my tomb!"

King Lou posted:

When I was doing some spots for Spotify, the company that hired me was paying like $150 for a Spotify spot. The owner of the company caught wind of this and flipped out saying that we should get paid $50 a spot. He saw no value in actually using professional VO people. My friend, who was the producer of the spots, refused to cheap out. He quit there shortly after.

My wife recently encouraged me to push harder on trying to make VO a career but I'm scared of poo poo like this. How common are situations like this?

WarpedNaba
Feb 8, 2012

Being social makes me swell!

SwitchbladeKult posted:

My wife recently encouraged me to push harder on trying to make VO a career but I'm scared of poo poo like this. How common are situations like this?

Common enough that the Union in the States went on strike recently. Tara Strong, Scott McNeil, all the big names get poo poo pay and benefits.

SwitchbladeKult
Apr 4, 2012



"The warmth of life has entered my tomb!"

WarpedNaba posted:

Common enough that the Union in the States went on strike recently. Tara Strong, Scott McNeil, all the big names get poo poo pay and benefits.

That's unfortunate.

I've got a lot of time to myself coming up next week and I think I'm ready to record a demo. Do any goons have any advice to share on recording demos? I've been reading articles about it on the Internet but I want to hear about you guys' experiences with demos.

SwitchbladeKult fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Dec 17, 2016

King Lou
Jun 3, 2004
They say the fittest shall survive, yet the unfit may live

I worked with a VO agent to make my demo. He helped me pick copy that he thought could show off my range. Then we went to a small audio studio and he sat with me while I did a bunch of takes until he & the engineer decided that they had good takes. The engineer pulls some stock music to play under the tracks and everyone signs off on them. Then they edit & deliver you an MP3 (maybe they still give you a CD?). You may have to pay extra to get a copy of the recording session backup.

I had to go back and request tweaks because the engineer left in some weird mouth sounds and bad music levels that were covering words. Remember that often (most) engineers literally don't care about more than making the most basic edits to your demo. Nor will they give you any direction. That isn't their job and they just want to be finished. That is just my experience. You may luck out and find someone who is willing to offer opinions or work with you to make it sound killer.

I learned ProTools/Audacity/Garageband so I could go back in and edit out the parts of my recordings that bother me the most.

I don't recall how much I spent either time...

blinkeve1826
Jul 26, 2005

WELCOME TO THE NEW DEATH
Merry Christmas, ya filthy animals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MbZsjHlIDI

Happy to share this animation, Zombie Christmas. I voice all female characters (the female zombie, mother and daughter).

It's just slightly overshadowed by my Netflix debut this week (about 17:15 into Ep. 4 of The OA if you're interested) among my IRL family and friends but hopefully this thread will enjoy it :banjo:

Kingtheninja
Jul 29, 2004

"You're the best looking guy here."

King Lou posted:

I worked with a VO agent to make my demo. He helped me pick copy that he thought could show off my range. Then we went to a small audio studio and he sat with me while I did a bunch of takes until he & the engineer decided that they had good takes. The engineer pulls some stock music to play under the tracks and everyone signs off on them. Then they edit & deliver you an MP3 (maybe they still give you a CD?). You may have to pay extra to get a copy of the recording session backup.

I had to go back and request tweaks because the engineer left in some weird mouth sounds and bad music levels that were covering words. Remember that often (most) engineers literally don't care about more than making the most basic edits to your demo. Nor will they give you any direction. That isn't their job and they just want to be finished. That is just my experience. You may luck out and find someone who is willing to offer opinions or work with you to make it sound killer.

I learned ProTools/Audacity/Garageband so I could go back in and edit out the parts of my recordings that bother me the most.

I don't recall how much I spent either time...

This convinced me to look up recording studios in my area, and I'm considering going in to record a demo reel. I haven't yet checked on agents, but what I've wondered how to best decide what scripts or what dialogue to record yourself speaking. Like if I have a "transatlantic accent" character, does it make a difference if I just read a few lines out of a book vs something more typical (like 1950's announcer)?

WarpedNaba
Feb 8, 2012

Being social makes me swell!
Best to do both - although if you have enough differences you might want to make several reels. Character, Commercial, Call-messages, so forth.

ATwoSlotToaster
Nov 6, 2004

You're toast!
I just took a step in the right direction for finalizing the publication of a short children's book I wrote. I was always hoping I could release it with an audiobook attached somehow!

I've posted here several times in the past for certain needs and I am ALWAYS impressed with the results. I love this thread and I just want to let you all know how great you guys are here!

So, the book is about a drum that joins marching band and tries out a bunch of the instruments before deciding to play the drums. (Yes, the book is about a drum that plays the drums in marching band.)

I would like to have someone with a fun voice read through the book. The text has a LOT of sounds involved and I'd really like them to be over the top for the audiobook. Anyone reading the book can make the fun sounds, I'm hoping someone here can make them come to life in a very wacky way! I would like all sounds to be made by voice, any creative way you want to do that is fine, without digital effects.

Length: However long it takes to read through the book with zany sounds.

Notes: Try the sounds a few ways. Start normal, very dry, basically just read the words monotone. Then keep bumping it up a notch until its insanely over the top and way too much. The idea is that I'll have options on which take to use for each page. Also, the sounds you read can be over and beyond what's written, especially at the end.

Script: "For Luca. Drummy Drum Joins Marchy Band. Written by Patrick R. F. Blakley. Illustrated by Emily Hogan. Illustrated by Caitlyn Nepka. This is Drummy. He’s a drum. Today Drummy Drum is joining the marchy band! But Drummy doesn’t know what instrument to play. What instrument should Drummy try? Drummy tries the Saxy-phone. Woop Woop Wop Wop SQUEEK! Now Drummy is trying the Clary-net. Beep Beep Bip Bip SKWAK! Drummy tries to play the Frenchy-horn. Honk Honk Honk Honk CLUNK! Drummy puts on the big Sousy-phone. He can barely lift it over his head! Boop Boop Bop Bop TOOT! These instruments are not for Drummy Drum, he doesn't feel like he fits in at all. Do you know what instrument Drummy could try? What's that banging pounding thumping bumping? Bang Bang Tom Tom Pow-wow! It's drums! Drummy can't wait to try the drums! Crack Crack, Dom Dom, Ratta-tat, Crash, Badoom Tish! Drummy loves drums! Drummy is going to play drums in the marchy band! Woop Woop Beep Beep Honk Honk Boop Boop, Bang Bang Thud Bash Bash Pow Tish Tosh Crash! Doop Doop Wallawoop Shoobidoo. Ting Tang Wallop Pow Zing Tash. Clap Clap Clap Clap!"

Pay: I'd like to pay up to $100 for a quality read that hits on all of my notes above.

I'll probably have some followup work soon too because I'll probably include an About the Author and About the Illustrator section that can be included in the audiobook. Once we get the ball rolling we can chat along the way.

Thanks everyone, I hope this is as fun to read as it was to write!

ATwoSlotToaster fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Jan 4, 2017

The Joe Man
Apr 7, 2007

Flirting With Apathetic Waitresses Since 1984
This is definitely not my forte but I can't wait to hear the finished result.


Thanks for posting the job; I'm positive you'll get some great submissions.


EDIT: Giving it a few shots but I keep ending up as Louis Armstrong during the ending drum vocals. Ehhh might post a submission later. I've had a super minor yet lingering cold/lung thing so I've had to hold off on currents projects for a bit.

The Joe Man fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Jan 4, 2017

Edward Mass
Sep 14, 2011

𝅘𝅥𝅮 I wanna go home with the armadillo
Good country music from Amarillo and Abilene
Friendliest people and the prettiest women you've ever seen
𝅘𝅥𝅮
Why would a drum PLAY the drums? That seems a bit odd. Anyway, I took a stab.

ATwoSlotToaster
Nov 6, 2004

You're toast!

all-Rush mixtape posted:

Why would a drum PLAY the drums? That seems a bit odd. Anyway, I took a stab.



Thanks for the read! I love the energy towards the end for sure! Overall, seems a little muffled. If this was a bit more clear it would definitely be on the right track.

Especially the drum sounds at the end, that's great!

ATwoSlotToaster
Nov 6, 2004

You're toast!
I just wanted to give an update: I got a lot of PMs with reads on this, very much appreciated! I'm taking the next steps with someone right now and I'll be sure to post the results once I'm done with the edits. Thanks again everyone, I didn't expect so many submissions, very much appreciated!

ATwoSlotToaster
Nov 6, 2004

You're toast!
Just finished editing the audiobook. Check it out here:

https://soundcloud.com/atwoslottoaster/drummy-drum-joins-marchy-band

Let me know what you think!

The Joe Man
Apr 7, 2007

Flirting With Apathetic Waitresses Since 1984

ATwoSlotToaster posted:

Just finished editing the audiobook. Check it out here:

https://soundcloud.com/atwoslottoaster/drummy-drum-joins-marchy-band

Let me know what you think!

1. He sounds drunk
2. The amount of popping is ridiculous
3. Spitmouth
4. Some of the "sound effects" are extremely grating to the ear and unpleasant, especially towards the end

He has potential but this honestly isn't very good and I wouldn't publish it in it's current form.

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The Bible
May 8, 2010

First post in the thread, but I've been following awhile.

I live long-term in Korea. Thanks to my visa, I have the option to work outside of English teaching if I can find anything, so about a year and a half ago, I saw an audition ad on CL, so I replied with a phone recorded voice sample.

A year passed with no reply after the audition, so I just figured "whatever, I tried". Out of the blue though, I got a call-back. Apparently, the company hosting the audition is very picky and there were a ton of auditions to sort through, and they eventually selected me. I've been recording for about 6 months now.

The pay is moderate, considering how long a video can take to record (lectures, 30 minute videos I knock out in about an hour or two, hour long videos can take anywhere from 3 to 4 hours), but they have over 500 videos that they insist are voiced by the same person every time (the speaker is always the same, so they want a consistent voice for him, I have a contract that also gives pay raises at every set number of videos), at a rate of about 5/month. Today I also was offered payment for revising the scripts I read from (the translation is good, but not great quality), at the same pay per script as I get for videos.

Not trying to brag here, just excited, and wanted to thank the regulars here. I doubt I would have even entertained the notion of getting into this work if I hadn't curiously clicked this thread, and I've discovered itnis something I really enjoy doing.

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