|
mugrim posted:Well for one thing, it polls over half right now, and did even better right after the election. The dems went weak on it and took the public option off the table. It was a beautiful moment to do well with it and they hosed it up. A 100% chance of enacting the PPACA wasn't worth not taking the lesser chance to get actual UHC. You keep going back to pretending that all of these voters are 100% logical automatons and that rising premiums will make them automatically love single payer. Besides polls done in a vacuum that ask in the abstract, you have no data or examples to back up the idea that a majority of Americans cannot be persuaded easily to oppose single payer.
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 05:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 07:50 |
|
|
Fulchrum posted:You keep going back to pretending that all of these voters are 100% logical automatons and that rising premiums will make them automatically love single payer. Besides polls done in a vacuum that ask in the abstract, you have no data or examples to back up the idea that a majority of Americans cannot be persuaded easily to oppose single payer. This is why democrats are chickenshits. God forbid you try something that's not easy or take a risk. Can't make promises because those dumb mouth breathers who do icky things like county fairs and fish fries couldn't possibly support us or understand when we make four big promises that only one will probably come true if at all. There was a MASSIVE opportunity to do this in 2008, and we failed. There will be a massive opportunity again. Yes, voters aren't rational, but once rates get high enough they'll be crying out for anyone who will change that. Many already DID in the form of trump because they falsely assume their raising rates are just the PPACA. When that doesn't change and things get worse, there will be another opportunity. Voters respond to huge swings in quality of life and healthcare pricing most Americans out of the market, which will happen because wages aren't linear and there's less and less money to be made on the poor. Healthcare rates are rising dramatically and wages are not only not rising as fast, but actually having issues rising at all. mugrim has issued a correction as of 05:23 on Nov 30, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 05:21
|
|
|
lieberman was a dick
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 05:24
|
|
|
Fulchrum posted:You keep going back to pretending that all of these voters are 100% logical automatons and that rising premiums will make them automatically love single payer. Besides polls done in a vacuum that ask in the abstract, you have no data or examples to back up the idea that a majority of Americans cannot be persuaded easily to oppose single payer. Expecting the Dems to persuade people of things is a bridge too loving far.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 05:33
|
|
|
Fidel Cuckstro posted:Expecting the Dems to persuade people of things is a bridge too loving far. Rational arguments and doing the right thing is a harder sell than appeals to base, savage instincts, selfishness and viciousness. This is news to you?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 05:46
|
|
|
Fulchrum posted:Rational arguments and doing the right thing is a harder sell than appeals to base, savage instincts, selfishness and viciousness. This is news to you? People's base, savage instincts over healthcare finance law.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 05:49
|
|
|
A caveman stalks through the dinosaur-filled jungle. On edge. He knows he's not alone. Something is stalking him. A T-Rex? Or a Statewide healthcare exchange?
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 05:51
|
|
|
Fulchrum posted:Rational arguments and doing the right thing is a harder sell than appeals to base, savage instincts, selfishness and viciousness. This is news to you? For someone that's super confident about their knowledge of the full capabilities and absolute limits of grassroots campaigning, I wouldn't throw out lines like "This is news to you?" when you literally just discovered an hour ago that fish fries are a loving thing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 05:52
|
|
|
Fulchrum posted:Rational arguments and doing the right thing is a harder sell than appeals to base, savage instincts, selfishness and viciousness. This is news to you? u though only catholics ate fish on friday and dont know what a fish fry is dispite the name being pretty gently caress self explanitory.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 06:03
|
|
|
Don't ever forget the forgotten man and woman.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 06:12
|
|
|
Fidel Cuckstro posted:People's base, savage instincts over healthcare finance law. Yeah, the notion of "I'm not sick right now, so gently caress anyone who is, I don't want to pay to support them." It's a notion summed up by Scalia in 2010, where the simplest way to solve the obligation to help our fellow man who is sick and needs help, is to just not be obligated to do that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 06:38
|
|
|
Ego-bot posted:Good news everybody! Democrats will learn nothing from 2016. Hold up lets put a lot of stock in the opinions of a democrat who decided he was pro-choice like 5 minutes ago as he concern-trolls to the Wall Street Journal Also Pelosi is smart and good.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 06:46
|
|
|
Fulchrum's reminding me that the original reason for Democrats becoming third wayist hypocritical traitor cucks in '92 was a sense of absolute futility and despair. It's such a blast from the past.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 06:47
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:
I live in CO and volunteered the entire election, there was a huge campaign against colorado care, even liberals and Democrats were against it because of misinformation and pp not liking it because worries about the Hyde amendment, I supported it but literally had to explain what it actually was to almost every person I talked to about it. Edit: It's also important to realize Colorado is blue because of social issues, the actual breakdown of CO is 1/3rd dem 1/3rd independent 1/3 republican
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 07:08
|
|
|
I just had what is probably a dumb shower thought: set a maximum price that companies can charge for the things a person needs or is expected to have to function in society to the minimum wage. Let them engage in private sector innovation all they want, so long as they keep it cheap. Keep the overall budget for these things under some percentage of full-time minimum wage work. Full coverage health and dental and optometry and prescription (and whatever other hairsplitting different kind of doctor visit stuff there may be) insurance for oneself and dependents? That'll be X many hours of minimum wage work per month. Stuff like that. e: And if they want to raise prices, then let them lobby to raise the minimum wage. Addamere has issued a correction as of 07:13 on Nov 30, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 07:09
|
|
|
Nietzschean posted:I just had what is probably a dumb shower thought: set a maximum price that companies can charge for the things a person needs or is expected to have to function in society to the minimum wage. Let them engage in private sector innovation all they want, so long as they keep it cheap. Keep the overall budget for these things under some percentage of full-time minimum wage work. Full coverage health and dental and optometry and prescription (and whatever other hairsplitting different kind of doctor visit stuff there may be) insurance for oneself and dependents? That'll be X many hours of minimum wage work per month. Stuff like that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 07:12
|
|
|
Fulchrum posted:wouldn't that just lead to the company providing substandard care and charging a premium for quality (I. E. Useful) coverage? There are zero flaws in my transient shower thoughts, for example underwater xylophones.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 07:14
|
|
|
zegermans posted:Hold up lets put a lot of stock in the opinions of a democrat who decided he was pro-choice like 5 minutes ago as he concern-trolls to the Wall Street Journal He can be right and be a stupid shithead. See: Trump's opinion on Hamilton.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 07:17
|
|
|
Fulchrum posted:Yeah, the notion of "I'm not sick right now, so gently caress anyone who is, I don't want to pay to support them." If Dems can't be more persuasive than a dead fat man then gosh,
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 12:04
|
|
|
Nietzschean posted:I just had what is probably a dumb shower thought: set a maximum price that companies can charge for the things a person needs or is expected to have to function in society to the minimum wage. Let them engage in private sector innovation all they want, so long as they keep it cheap. Keep the overall budget for these things under some percentage of full-time minimum wage work. Full coverage health and dental and optometry and prescription (and whatever other hairsplitting different kind of doctor visit stuff there may be) insurance for oneself and dependents? That'll be X many hours of minimum wage work per month. Stuff like that. alternatively let's just update our navy once every 20 years intead of once every 10 years and use teh cost savings to just have the government pay for people to get healthcare let's also go back to building role-specific aircraft isnteadof mooshing them all together into one big general-purpose mess of gently caress and use the money we save from that to pay healthcare professionals big yearly salaries so thsoe jobs continue to be prestigious and competitive then we'd probably still have enough cash left over to make sure every american has a guaranteed income of at least $24,000/yr bing binb bonb bong so simple
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 12:15
|
|
|
"We should do single payer healthcare" "Hmm, I think I've heard about that before. It'll be expensive. And poorly run like everything the government does." "LISTEN YOU PAPIST SAVAGES, I'M TRYING TO DO SOMETHING IN YOUR BEST INTERESTS AND YOUR loving ITALIAN KING WON'T LET YOU DO IT? I HOPE YOU ALL loving DIE."
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 12:21
|
|
|
RedneckwithGuns posted:He can be right and be a stupid shithead. See: Trump's opinion on Hamilton. "For every Hamilton viewer we lose, we'll gain two moderate blue collar workers in the midwest. Everyone else will just stay home and not vote." Fulchrum posted:Yeah, the notion of "I'm not sick right now, so gently caress anyone who is, I don't want to pay to support them." "Grassroots campaigning has extreme limits and I am fully aware of how little they can accomplish! It can't get anything done no matter how hard you try and I know through my extensive experience. It's HUMAN NATURE. ...No I'm not aware of what one of the most popular local political fundraising and community events in the country is, why is that relevant?" A lot of the hate for democrat programs is their bullshit bureaucracy and means testing. The instant pushback is under the assumption that it'll only help those who are unemployed or make under X. No one gives a gently caress about Donald Trump's kids going to public school for free, they care that now you got some gross bureaucracy that's arbitrarily cutting lines that will screw them over. Places that got medicare expansion actually have backlash from many of the working poor because it puts them in an awful position where if they make 500 more bucks a year, they actually lose 6k a year paying for healthcare. You literally are shackling them to poverty under threat of their families health. This is a big loving deal in the midwest where wages are hyper stagnate and thousands of people worked for the PPACA, only to find out that they 'make too much'. It's so extreme I know employees who have a 'secret real wage' for employers that both have agreed to respect that they track whenever they get a bonus to ensure they don't disqualify until they're sure they'll actually end up making more money by accepting a raise. mugrim has issued a correction as of 14:07 on Nov 30, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 13:40
|
|
|
Fulchrum posted:The gently caress is a fish fry? This is approaching Three Olives levels of pomposity.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 14:29
|
|
|
Oh wow, this is where it came from ahaha also yikes at this thread quit ur whingin an blabbin about the past i got this i nominate elon musk for 2024 all yer intellectualimitizing and u couldnt com up with that bing bong bing so simple ur welcome
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 14:40
|
|
|
GlyphGryph posted:I actually like fulchrums plan of passing legislation to make insurance unsustainable and use that as an excuse to backdoor single payer. isn't this what the Cadillac tax is going to do when it kicks in 13 months (assuming Republicans don't pass anything)? I'd totally forgotten about it until recently
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 14:57
|
|
|
mastershakeman posted:isn't this what the Cadillac tax is going to do when it kicks in 13 months (assuming Republicans don't pass anything)? I'd totally forgotten about it until recently The irony of course is that the Clinton emails showed that they were going to kill those taxes to 'save the PPACA" rather than force the dems to do anything of actual substance.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 15:00
|
|
|
If you want single payer, then the best thing to do is let Trump repeal the mandate and keep the clause against per-existing conditions. Then encourage everyone to only get health insurance when they're old and or sick. Enough people still have health care through their employer which is at least passable, even though our rates and contributions are going up every year. When the rates start going up 50% a year and the entire system topples over as major health insurance companies start filing for bankruptcy, then you might get support for a public option. Essentially things have to get a lot worse before they get better.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 15:00
|
|
|
∆∆∆ yepmugrim posted:The irony of course is that the Clinton emails showed that they were going to kill those taxes to 'save the PPACA" rather than force the dems to do anything of actual substance. I'm amused by it because I was just arguing with coworkers the ppaca needed to make things worse for people with good health insurance so there wasn't a have/have not situation and then a day later was like oh right Obama actually did that it just took a decade to actually trigger. people on the exchange are pretty hosed already. I have coworkers who are going to just pay the fine because paying 350/mo premiums then a 5k+ deductible for an individual isn't worth it. there's also a rumor that the govt doesn't verify if you just say you lost employer coverage and sign up when sick my exchange plan options next year for 2 adults+ baby has a 14k deductible across nearly every plan and about a 800-1000/mo premium. if my wife went to work (and didn't get health insurance from her employer) instead of taking care of the kid and we lost the subsidies, lol bankruptcy. I'm not even sure what the point is when the deductible and oop are so high anyway mastershakeman has issued a correction as of 15:07 on Nov 30, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 15:03
|
|
|
The Nastier Nate posted:If you want single payer, then the best thing to do is let Trump repeal the mandate and keep the clause against per-existing conditions. Then encourage everyone to only get health insurance when they're old and or sick. Enough people still have health care through their employer which is at least passable, even though our rates and contributions are going up every year. Rates have gone up 50% this year in several places already, including a 116% increase in Arizona's only ensurer on the public exchange. But hey, Hillary said single payer could never happen so clearly the market will self correct in 2018 and massive rises won't occur. At current rates, the idea that single payer won't have an opportunity is absurd. mugrim has issued a correction as of 15:07 on Nov 30, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 15:04
|
|
|
So obviously the situation regarding PPACA is hosed and we would like it to be an opportunity to push for a single payer system, but just for a thought experiment, what other options could we possibly see floated instead, first? I'm 1000% behind America becoming single payer, but god knows we never do the right thing the first time, or even the second time usually, so we probably should think about what other ideas may be tried before it eventually leads to just single payer. Depending on who would be at the reins in designing it, if measures aren't taken before insurance companies start going under I could see a bailout + price controls implemented first. It seems the most centrist and milquetoast of solutions and would probably be floated first due to its similarities to the 2008 bailout strategy and legislators hoping that public support for 2008 measures extends to these. RedneckwithGuns has issued a correction as of 15:24 on Nov 30, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 15:19
|
|
|
RedneckwithGuns posted:So obviously the situation regarding PPACA is hosed and we would like it to be an opportunity to push for a single payer system, but just for a thought experiment, what other options could we possibly see floated instead? I'm 1000% behind America becoming single payer, but god knows we never do the right thing the first time, or even the second time usually, so we probably should think about what other ideas may be tried before it eventually leads to just single payer. I mean, likely scenarios for bandaids are tweaking medicaid expansion to drastically raise the income limit, allowing a straight up medicaid/medicare buy in, and outright price setting (ie Japan). Edit: also forgot, allowing massive deregulation for non-profit providers but that comes with a crazy amount of challenges legally. Edit 2: I live in a state without expansion, and we're already seeing local solutions. Some hospitals now have health insurance plans that cover any and all services used in the hospital with a super reasonable copay. They're having both legal and financial problems due to it. mugrim has issued a correction as of 15:26 on Nov 30, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 15:22
|
|
|
mugrim posted:Edit 2: I live in a state without expansion, and we're already seeing local solutions. Some hospitals now have health insurance plans that cover any and all services used in the hospital with a super reasonable copay. They're having both legal and financial problems due to it. So this time it's the democrats that actually took us back in time, to the paradigm of the first health insurance plans when they first started in 1929.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 15:30
|
|
|
RedneckwithGuns posted:So this time it's the democrats that actually took us back in time, to the paradigm of the first health insurance plans when they first started in 1929. Yeeeeeeeep. They're literally doing OG Kaiser poo poo. Unions are unironically getting in on it too. Between that and the environment of open racism, you'd swear you were in a 30's era ship yard.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 15:37
|
|
|
mugrim posted:Rates have gone up 50% this year in several places already, including a 116% increase in Arizona's only ensurer on the public exchange. Crazy rate increases are the first step but all that means is that insurance companies are making out like bandits. Like with the bank failure, nothing is going to happen until a major insurance company files for bankruptcy. We saw a few pull out of the exchanges, which is the start of saying that the affordable care act, and the insurance industry as a whole is unsustainable.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 15:40
|
|
|
willa rogers was right about everything lol
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 15:47
|
|
|
Karl Barks posted:willa rogers was right about everything lol I did not see the posts, but would like to
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 15:52
|
|
|
i dunno if she even posts here anymore, but she basically called everything that's happening with the ACA when she was posting from like 2008-2012
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 16:09
|
|
|
The Nastier Nate posted:Crazy rate increases are the first step but all that means is that insurance companies are making out like bandits. Like with the bank failure, nothing is going to happen until a major insurance company files for bankruptcy. We saw a few pull out of the exchanges, which is the start of saying that the affordable care act, and the insurance industry as a whole is unsustainable. The build up to the banking failures was relatively silent to normal rear end people. If rates get unsustainably high, you will see organization around it and you will see it become an issue. That doesn't mean Single payer is a shoe in or even likely, but SOMETHING will happen. The entire american workforce losing an extra 300 bucks a person a month over the course of a couple of years is not something that'll go unnoticed, especially because they actually SEE it every two weeks. There will be kicking and screaming over it, and arguably there already IS. The PPACA is listed as one of the top reasons people voted Trump, because contrary to liberal think tanks at best you can say it made a tiny dent for a year or two in prices and helped tons of hyper poor people, but the bread and butter working poor and middle class are totally hosed by it in most places. So now you get huge class resentment between the abject poverty poor and the working poor. If the mandate goes but pre-existing conditions are kept as well as medicaid expansion, the fallout will be hilarious/dark for anyone watching because prices will jump to absurd levels over night. mugrim has issued a correction as of 16:29 on Nov 30, 2016 |
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 16:24
|
|
|
We need to run a guy who can verifiably out deal the art of the deal Cheeto man. Wayne Brady 2020
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 16:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 07:50 |
|
|
Lord of Pie posted:We need to run a guy who can verifiably out deal the art of the deal Cheeto man. I know people think I'm joking, but Al Franken is pretty much purpose built for the job of defeating Trump. He's got years of dealing with similar personas (people who take themselves too seriously who are dumb) and making them look like morons. He can do this while being a senator with real experience, making the midwest happy as they love him, and making a real case for progressive causes. I can genuinely see him getting Trump to start taking swings at him.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2016 16:48
|
|