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Glazier posted:Maybe older people but younger people, of all races, were won by Sanders in huge numbers. You asked for demographics that preferred Clinton to Sanders. PoCs are one such demographic. I don't know what else you want me to say.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:47
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Radish posted:I'm already seeing him take credit for Ford not moving (when they said they weren't after he lied that they were) and Carrier not moving 1000 jobs before he's even sworn in. Trump will literally take credit for everything good that happens from now until 2020 and I really don't have a lot of faith in anyone calling him on any of it outside of news outlets no one cares about. I can't sit back on the sentiment of "Trump has a few months to keep blaming things on the Obama admin, but after a while people will stop accepting that". I'm sure we can go back in time and cite many examples of this happening so I understand where it comes from and why there is confidence behind it. But I also feel it is going to be one of those things that many people relying on it will find another shock when it simply never comes true. One assumption that supports that idea is that as present day ills come up, people will start blaming those in power because they will see through any bullshit they try to spin. I don't have faith that assumption will hold up any longer. I don't know if it's that spin has become that good, or if there's too much self selection happening in what news you choose to follow and what echo chambers you subscribe to, or what other factors might contribute but we're getting a president who will grift in to a donor's banquet for a charity he never gave a dime to, and when accused live on national television of tax dodging will counter with "well you let me get away with it". For a guy like that we rewarded him with our highest office, so no, right now I don't see a lot of people suddenly seeing through the bullshit during his tenure.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:47
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"Bernie couldn't have won" talk seems kind of moot at this point? He probably could have, if narrowly. I wouldn't have voted for him if I didn't think he could. It wasn't a feel-good pat on the back on my part. Sanders had a power to energize the base that Clinton lacked, however broad her coalition. She's supremely competent and qualified but her coalition didn't turn out for her, so here we are. Does anyone know if there's a thread about US politics left? This one still seems to be about arguing over which foundational pillar of liberalism we have to jettison to win next time with the occasional "smug Trumpist pretends they knew it was going to end this way the whole time" interlude. Lots of people still in Denial when I experienced the first 4 stages at around 11 PM on 11/8 and ended up at Acceptance the day after.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:48
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FAUXTON posted:All-Inclusive progressivism is a nearly impossible platform to sell because there's always going to be a bunch of resentment, either of the decadent ivory towers in the cities, or the racist bumpkins in the sticks. The best way of uniting the rural working class and the urban working class is to point that resentment at the suburbs and exurbs. For the city folks, explain that the *-urbs are fleecing them and trying to steal their sewer service and plow service without paying for it. For the rural folks, explain that the *-urbs are trying to move in on their family farm so they can build another golf course. I'm pretty sure it's clearly evident that a platform is more appealing when you give someone an enemy to swing at. I can support this, go pol pot on the mcmansions.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:48
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botany posted:You asked for demographics that preferred Clinton to Sanders. PoCs are one such demographic. I don't know what else you want me to say. Since I don't know which of you is correct, one of you using sources with numbers would be a good.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:48
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NewForumSoftware posted:The states where they didn't know who he was yet. Nobody is saying Bernie didn't have a problem with campaign outreach, but his policies resonated with minorities much more than HRCs did. i think people in California had lots of time to figure out who Sanders was
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Nov 30, 2016 18:49
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botany posted:You asked for demographics that preferred Clinton to Sanders. PoCs are one such demographic. I don't know what else you want me to say. No I asked for demographics that PREFER clinton to sanders. Not election results from a Democratic primary which happened over a year ago. paranoid randroid posted:i think people in California had lots of time to figure out who Sanders was unfortunately you can't trust people to just "figure out" things like this, a campaign was required and Bernie's came with too little and too late, despite the vast superiority his policies offered.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:49
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MacheteZombie posted:Since I don't know which of you is correct, one of you using sources with numbers would be a good. http://graphics.wsj.com/elections/2016/how-clinton-won/
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Nov 30, 2016 18:50
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NewForumSoftware posted:The states where they didn't know who he was yet. Nobody is saying Bernie didn't have a problem with campaign outreach, but his policies resonated with minorities much more than HRCs did. Oh, it picked the "right" candidate alright.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:50
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Phone posted:That's why I'm voting Cloud Strife of the AVALANCHE Party come 2020. We need a candidate with strong, blond hair. Cloud Strife: couldn't save Aeris, can't save Midgar." ~ Paid for by the Re-elect President Shinra Committee
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Nov 30, 2016 18:51
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NewForumSoftware posted:No I asked for demographics that PREFER clinton to sanders. Not election results from a Democratic primary which happened over a year ago. ... do you think this magically changed since the primaries? When Sanders recently commented on "identity politics", indicating that he still isn't able to see past economic issues?
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Nov 30, 2016 18:52
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Democratic primary voters who are People of Color are not People of Color as a whole, hth. botany posted:... do you think this magically changed since the primaries? When Sanders recently commented on "identity politics", indicating that he still isn't able to see past economic issues? If you think using the words "identity politics" means you can't see past economic issues you're part of the problem.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:52
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Bhaal posted:I've had a pretty dark turn of mind these past few weeks but I feel this is what we'll see. The conventional wisdom of stuff like "when you have one party congress & president, they cannot shift blame and will be held accountable" is to me part of the same category of other conventional wisdom that was tossed out the window starting with the primaries and on up to november 8th. Thanks to social media, I must sadly agree with you. I only use Facebook for sharing funny pictures and talking to family but over half the country uses it as their primary, or only, news source. Facts don't matter because fact's don't even get on people's news feed if they don't already agree with what they believe.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:53
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Counterfactuals about the primary. Still useless.Accretionist posted:blacks 
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Nov 30, 2016 18:53
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:...yeah, which states did Bernie lose again? You mean all those red states? Toward the end, polling showed Sanders ahead of Clinton with blacks in Wisconsin. And he was doing great with millenials from fairly early. He was fine. Economic issues are fine. This He's a white man for white men business is a primary campaign talking point with little basis, and it's an irritating corollary of the broader rejection of economic progressivism by centrists.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:53
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Inferior Third Season posted:"In addition to being a member of a known terrorist network, Cloud Strife has been seen dressing in drag and visiting a brothel. He has been incarcerated and escaped, only to remain in the area where he is suspected of fixing chocobo races. He has been admitted to a hospital for mental illness. He also has ties to big business and his so called Cait Sith was actually controlled by Rufus Shinra himself as revealed in the Moogleleaks emails.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:54
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botany posted:Old People of Color. Bernie did just fine with Millennial People of Color.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:54
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Accretionist posted:You mean all those red states?
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Nov 30, 2016 18:54
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Bernie's campaign sucked because he had one stump speech and he repeated it over and over again to every audience he came across. It's a good stump speech for white working class voters, but he bombed in almost every state with significant minority populations because people (rightly) considered him to be out-of-touch with anyone that didn't match Vermont's demographics. I think Bernie's message was good and important, but he wasn't the right person to act as the face of the party because he spent most of his political career in a state that is highly unrepresentative of the country at large and had trouble adapting when confronted with that. It's why I'm hopeful about Keith Ellison (or Tom Perez) because they have the same economic message as Bernie but with more experience working with diverse communities. Also Cory Booker absolutely could beat Trump. Obama and Trump have both shown that policy and political stances are irrelevant as long as you have charisma and people like you on a personal level, and Booker has poo poo-tons of charisma.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:54
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B B posted:I was a fan of Bernie's policies but always thought he was an imperfect messenger. I really hope we can find someone younger with a similar message by 2020, so that we don't end up with Cory loving Booker. I keep seeing this, and I've read a couple op-eds about why Booker is Bad and Not Good, but I haven't seen much substance to the complaint. Why does the left seem to hate Booker? He seems like a carbon copy of Obama, which doesn't seem remotely bad to me.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:54
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Accretionist posted:This He's a white man for white men business is a primary campaign talking point with little basis Yep, its just something HRC supporters repeated over and over again until it became accepted rhetoric. Meanwhile Bernie marched with MLK while Clinton campaigned for Goldwater. HorseRenoir posted:Bernie's campaign sucked because he had one stump speech and he repeated it over and over again to every audience he came across. It's a good stump speech for white working class voters, but he bombed in almost every state with significant minority populations because people (rightly) considered him to be out-of-touch with anyone that didn't match Vermont's demographics [citation needed]
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Nov 30, 2016 18:55
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NewForumSoftware posted:No I asked for demographics that PREFER clinton to sanders. Not election results from a Democratic primary which happened over a year ago. It's still true. Sorry. The difference wouldn't have been meaningful in the general, but that's not what you asked.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:55
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:lol truly a bernie bro Hey everyone, its wintertime so let's all bundle around this hot rear end take.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:55
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Accretionist posted:You mean all those red states? oh yes please lets revisit this argument whats your opinion of the McGovern-Fraiser Commission?
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Nov 30, 2016 18:55
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NewForumSoftware posted:Democratic primary voters who are People of Color are not People of Color as a whole, hth.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:55
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:It's still true. Sorry. Honestly if you want to break down demographics to "People of Color who voted in the Democratic primary" then you'll win that argument. I'm talking about the general election. Who was going to vote for Trump that would have voted for HRC but didn't because Bernie was just too radical. Do these people even exist outside of corporate board rooms? botany posted:Clinton did better than Sanders with PoCs during the primaries. There is no reason to believe that has changed. Your question has been answered. gently caress off. Sure there is, the 2016 election. Look if all you have is primary election results I think we can just safely say you have no evidence for the claim that People of Color as a whole preferred HRC to Bernie.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:56
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:I keep seeing this, and I've read a couple op-eds about why Booker is Bad and Not Good, but I haven't seen much substance to the complaint. Why does the left seem to hate Booker? He seems like a carbon copy of Obama, which doesn't seem remotely bad to me. Seems like he's in bed with finance but at this point
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Nov 30, 2016 18:58
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NewForumSoftware posted:Democratic primary voters who are People of Color are not People of Color as a whole, hth. Democratic primary voters who are Young People are not Young People as a whole either. The point is: If someone was a minority, they were more likely to be a Hillary voter in the primary. And if someone was younger, they were more likely to be a Bernie voter. Both of those things can be true.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:58
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NewForumSoftware posted:Honestly if you want to break down demographics to "People of Color who voted in the Democratic primary" then you'll win that argument. I'm talking about the general election. Who was going to vote for Trump that would have voted for HRC but didn't because Bernie was just too radical. Do these people even exist outside of corporate board rooms? No, but future candidates still have to win the loving primary, and that requires engaging with All Of The People Who Vote In The Democratic Primary.
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Nov 30, 2016 18:58
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NewForumSoftware posted:Look if all you have is primary election results I think we can just safely say you have no evidence for the claim that People of Color as a whole preferred HRC to Bernie. You mean other than the evidence that they voted for Clinton more than Sanders? Are you high or something?
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Nov 30, 2016 18:59
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So Seema Verma seems to be in charge of Medicaid and Medicare. She was the one that worked with Pence in Indiana for the expansion of Medicaid and Medicare. Here are his picks also I stole all this bio from Hannity website. Apparently she has some ethical conflicts of course. Senator Jeff Sessions Bio: Jefferson Beauregard "Jeff" Sessions III currently serves as U.S. Senator from Alabama. Prior to his career in the U.S. Senate, Sessions was the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Alabama, having been appointed by then-President Ronald Reagen. Sessions was elected Attorney General of Alabama in 1994 before being elected to the United States Senate in 1996. Secretary of the Treasury Steven Mnuchin Bio: Steven "Steve" Mnuchin is a successful banker. Prior to being tapped to lead the U.S. Treasury, Mnuchin was chief executive of Dune Capital Management, a privately owned hedge fund, and was a partner at Goldman-Sachs for 17-years. Mnuchin served as the Trump campaign finance chairman Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross Bio: Wilbur Ross is a successful American investor and business man. Ross is known as a "turnaround artist" who has acquired failing businesses and made them profitable. Although a registered Democrat, Ross an early supporter of Donald Trump's presidential campaign. National Security Advisor Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn Bio: Retired Lt. General Michael Flynn served as the 18th Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency under President Barack Obama. Flynn began his career in the U.S. Army in 1981 as a second lieutenant in military intelligence. General Flynn retired on April 7, 2014, and became an advisor to the Trump campaign in February of 2016. Deputy National Security Advisor KT McFarland Bio: Donald Trump announced that he would tap Fox News contributor and national security analyst Kathleen Troia "KT" McFarland to be Deputy National Security Advisor on November 25th. KT McFarland brings a considerable amount of experience to the position having held national security posts in the administrations of presidents Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford and Ronald Reagan. CIA Director Mike Pompeo Bio:Congressman Michael "Mike" Pompeo has served as the U.S. Representative for Kansas's 4th congressional district since 2011. A graduate of West Point Military Academy and Harvard Law, Pompeo served in the United Staes Army from 1986-1991, retiring at the rank of captain. U.S. Ambassador To The United Nations Governor Nikki Haley Bio: Nimrata "Nikki" Haley was elected the 116th Governor of the state of South Carolina in 2010, and took office in 2011. Prior to serving as governor, Haley was a ember of the South Carolina House of Representatives, serving the Palmetto state's 87th district. Prior to her political career, Haley was a successful business woman, helping to grow her family clothing business into a multimillion-dollar company Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos Bio: Betsy DeVos is the chairwoman of American Federation for Children which, according to the organization's website seeks "to improve our nation’s K-12 education by advancing systemic and sustainable public policy that empowers parents, particularly those in low-income families, to choose the education they determine is best for their children." Secretary of Health and Human Services Tom Price Bio:Congressman Tom Price has represented Georgia's 6th congressional district since 2005. Before serving in the House of Representatives, Price was an orthopedic surgeon. Price has been instrumental in crafting legislation to replace the Affordable Care Act, and implementing such legislation would likely be amongst his first tasks as Secretary of Health and Human Services. Secretary of Transportation Elaine Chao Bio: Before being chosen to serve as Donald Trump's Secretary of Transportation, Elaine Chao served as Secretary of Labor under President George W. Bush from 2001 through 2009, the first Asian-American woman to serve in a Cabinet position. Chao has been married to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell since 1993 Administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services Seema Verma Bio: According to her official biography, "Seema Verma is the President, CEO and founder of SVC, Inc., a national health policy consulting company. Verma has worked extensively on a variety of policy and strategic projects involving Medicaid, insurance, and public health, working with Governor's offices, State Medicaid agencies, State Health Departments, State Departments of Insurance, as well as the federal government, private companies and foundations.
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Nov 30, 2016 19:00
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:He seems like a carbon copy of Obama, which doesn't seem remotely bad to me.  DC Murderverse posted:Democratic primary voters who are Young People are not Young People as a whole either. I never claimed they were. All I'm saying is that if you took a demographic that participate in the general election, there's absolutely no evidence that Bernie would have done worse than HRC against Trump on election day outside of rich upper class people.
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Nov 30, 2016 19:00
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NewForumSoftware posted:Honestly if you want to break down demographics to "People of Color who voted in the Democratic primary" then you'll win that argument. I'm talking about the general election. Who was going to vote for Trump that would have voted for HRC but didn't because Bernie was just too radical. Do these people even exist outside of corporate board rooms? You seem to be angling for "Bernie is now more popular than HRC because she lost the general and he did not" which is possibly true but also trivial and tedious and why the gently caress does it matter?
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Nov 30, 2016 18:59
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Fojar38 posted:It's true that I have no direct military experience and have to glean what I can from open source internet poo poo but I would ask why there are so few actual military people posting in this thread in the first place. (It's probably because like half of the regular posters are hostile towards the military or the idea of US foreign policy in general) I was in the US military a few years ago, what do you want to know? I also don't really post here because this thread is awful and full of people making stupid statements back and forth to each other.
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Nov 30, 2016 19:00
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:I keep seeing this, and I've read a couple op-eds about why Booker is Bad and Not Good, but I haven't seen much substance to the complaint. Why does the left seem to hate Booker? He seems like a carbon copy of Obama, which doesn't seem remotely bad to me. Booker has not-progressive stances on charter schools and Wall Street banks (both of these stances are because he's from Newark, NJ). I don't think he would push too hard on them if the rest of the party told him no, and he has enough personal charisma for this stuff to not matter in an election anyways. NewForumSoftware posted:Yep, its just something HRC supporters repeated over and over again until it became accepted rhetoric. Clinton started her career going undercover to enforce civil rights laws in the South and spent decades building bonds with the black community while Sanders spent most of his time in office holed up in one of the whitest states in the nation.
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Nov 30, 2016 19:01
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Nevvy Z posted:You seem to be angling for "Bernie is now more popular than HRC because she lost the general and he did not" which is possibly true but also trivial and tedious and why the gently caress does it matter? Bernie was always more popular, his likability has dominated the field for a long time now. It matters because the next time the Democratic establishment comes with there more "electable" "demographic friendly" candidate that refuses to take on wall street we need to reject them wholesale. HorseRenoir posted:Clinton started her career going undercover to enforce civil rights laws in the South and spent decades building bonds with the black community while Sanders spent most of his time in office holed up in one of the whitest states in the nation. Superpredators, DOMA, etc.
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Nov 30, 2016 19:01
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lol at people asking, hey Corey Booker is a copy of Obama why do the left hate him? Hmmm, look at what Obama's administration has wrought and you will have the answer to that question.
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Nov 30, 2016 19:01
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DC Murderverse posted:Both of those things can be true. Visual aid: 
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Nov 30, 2016 19:01
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NewForumSoftware posted:Look if all you have is primary election results I think we can just safely say you have no evidence for the claim that People of Color as a whole preferred HRC to Bernie. Do you have evidence?
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Nov 30, 2016 19:01
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Dr. Fishopolis posted:I keep seeing this, and I've read a couple op-eds about why Booker is Bad and Not Good, but I haven't seen much substance to the complaint. Why does the left seem to hate Booker? He seems like a carbon copy of Obama, which doesn't seem remotely bad to me. Obama was actually pretty bad in a lot of areas if you look at his actions rather than his rhetoric. That aside the main complaint I've seen against Booker is that he's taken more money from the financial industry than any other Democrat, which is legitimately troubling if true.
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Nov 30, 2016 19:02
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