|
Speaking of Neverwinter Nights, it's free on GOG right now.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 17:54 |
|
|
# ? Jun 5, 2024 21:37 |
|
Siivola posted:Speaking of Neverwinter Nights, it's free on GOG right now. I've probably put more hours into Neverwinter Nights than any other RPG except maybe New Vegas. Oh Bioware, what happened to you?
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 17:58 |
|
SirPhoebos posted:It’s been a while, and the start of The Great Modron March review tempted me to put this on hold to review Planes of Law, but I’m committed to finishing this up. Bieeardo posted:That other poo poo they added later, imported Egyptians and an eighth grader's conception of Cortez? That wasn't history, that was stasis. And gently caress, if you really want pastiches of real world cultures, kept in temporal Tupperware for your friends to run roughshod over? The BD&D Hollow World content did it far better.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 18:01 |
|
Kurieg posted:Particularly since the original D&D had poo poo like aliens and cyborgs in it cause the governing creed was "is it fun? Sure, why not." Like, way back in Basic and 1e there were crashed spaceships and gnomish power armor and all kinds of goofy, cool things all over the place. Now it's just Forgotten Realms 24/7 and it's stuck in a kind of stasis because heaven forefend it's no longer what it was like when I was 12.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 18:03 |
|
Halloween Jack posted:Of course Mystara is better than FR in every single conceivable way. Everyone knows that. That's why Capcom used the setting for their two D&D Beat-em-Ups. Kavak posted:I've probably put more hours into Neverwinter Nights than any other RPG except maybe New Vegas. Oh Bioware, what happened to you? Since this is runs on 3.X and I have sadly not played all that much in it: How strong is the CoDzilla in it?
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 18:07 |
|
Kavak posted:I've probably put more hours into Neverwinter Nights than any other RPG except maybe New Vegas. Oh Bioware, what happened to you? Kavak posted:Yeah, I'd like to see some examples, because it doesn't sound that bad (He says, putting some salt on those words for later) They're an evil-in-all-but-name(They're basically the hyper dickish interpretation of Lawful Neutral) theocratic nation built upon the backs of Slaves. Even though they were abducted from their world to be used as slave labor and that would have given them a chance to gain some perspective, they're a pastiche of ancient egypt and everyone knows that Ancient Egypt used slaves. Also the reason why Egypt in the real world fell is because Ao allowed the Egyptian Pantheon to come to Faerun to aid their people in rebelling against their Imaskari slavers and said gods never went back. Seriosly 78% of Mulhorand's population is human slaves owned by the priest caste. Did I mention they still have a Caste system?
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 18:11 |
|
Kurieg posted:Several of them left to form Obsidian? Which made New Vegas and NWN2? (Also Mask of the Betrayer, which is the important part of NWN2) Obsidian was mostly Black Isle, I don't think they have anyone from Bioware. They had a long working relationship, though. Kurieg posted:Also the reason why Egypt in the real world fell is because Ao allowed the Egyptian Pantheon to come to Faerun to aid their people in rebelling against their Imaskari slavers and said gods never went back. Doesn't seem that bad in a vacuum (Except the slave:free ratio even Rome at its height wasn't like that), but when the nations full of dark-skinned people are awful while the free and fair lands are white people, I see what the problem is.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 18:43 |
|
Mulhorand explicitly imports slaves from Thay. The only real reason Mulhorand isn't depicted as an evil to be opposed is because Unther is worse and Mulhorand and Unther basically do nothing but oppose each other. Also they're in Southeastern Faerun and nobody cares about Southeastern Faerun. Except when you change it then it must be restored at all costs by the god of gods himself.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 18:50 |
|
Kavak posted:Doesn't seem that bad in a vacuum (Except the slave:free ratio even Rome at its height wasn't like that), but when the nations full of dark-skinned people are awful while the free and fair lands are white people, I see what the problem is. By the by, now that I think on it, I was only playing a Mulhorandi because the book said that's where almost all the aasimar come from, and I wanted to play an aasimar. I was playing a cleric of the Red Knight, so I didn't even get into the Horus stuff. Hostile V posted:ALL FLESH MUST BE EATEN Moves like Back Kick mean nothing in a system where you're never encouraged to track facing or use a battlemap. Moves like Head Butt are too situational to matter. And moves like Trip are just another move but better. (Trip is like Judo throw, but you don't have to Grab first, and it does more damage!) I can't remember if EtZ has the same problem as Conspiracy X with some punches just being better than others. The potential consequences of falling on your butt when you kick seem to matter little. If you're the dedicated Martial Artist, you get a high skill, you take Spin Kick or Jump Kick and you just don't miss. Even if you somehow do, you'll probably succeed on the roll to keep your balance. Still, it's the best framework I've seen for modeling a reality where you could be, say, a really dangerous kickboxer who's vulnerable to getting wrestlefucked. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Dec 2, 2016 |
# ? Dec 2, 2016 18:55 |
|
Halloween Jack posted:This is a very odd thing I keep seeing in fantasy, like how in the Wilderlands of High Fantasy the dark-skinned race are the slavers. and it's not even slavery as it was in Roman or some of the pre-colonial empires of Africa, but it's often straight up modeled after the Chattel Slavery in the Americas and European-owned colonies, making it more puzzling.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:04 |
|
Halloween Jack posted:This is a very odd thing I keep seeing in fantasy, like how in the Wilderlands of High Fantasy the dark-skinned race are the slavers. drow are just incomprehensible, I don't understand how you go "well okay so the evil elves are the dark skinned ones" and think this remotely a good idea (in forgotten realms iirc they are actually dark skinned because they are evil which is like holy poo poo) the fact that they live underground is just icing on the cake e: there's also a 4e paragon path where you get to be reborn as a white elf
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:18 |
|
One of the nice things about the Warhams Fantasy Dark Elves? They're just, uh, they're assholes. That's it. They're not even a separate race. They're just one side of an ancient succession struggle and massive slaving dicks.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:20 |
|
Jeb Bush 2012 posted:drow are just incomprehensible, I don't understand how you go "well okay so the evil elves are the dark skinned ones" and think this remotely a good idea (in forgotten realms iirc they are actually dark skinned because they are evil which is like holy poo poo) Yeah, I keep going around in circles trying to reinvent the drow to wipe out that implication (made worse that some official art don't depict them with pitch-black or blue-back skin, but dark brown-ish real skin tones), and felt like honestly the best solution is just toss them out completely and start over.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:20 |
|
I can't remember if it's forgotten realms or pathfinder. But in one of those it's literally impossible to be an evil elf if you aren't a Drow. The taint of your sin turns their skin black. The opposite requires that you prove that you're "One of the good ones" and literal divine intervention. This is why I thought having the underdark crushed and free Drow moving to the surface was a good thing. But Ao, wall of the faithless himself, disagrees.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:23 |
|
Kurieg posted:I can't remember if it's forgotten realms or pathfinder. But in one of those it's literally impossible to be an evil elf if you aren't a Drow. The taint of your sin turns their skin black. One of the 3.5 adventure paths for pathfinder had it that If an elf goes evil enough, they can spontaneously transform into a drow; the big bad of the adventure was a former elf Drowhunter who became a Drow in the midst of arguing for a final solution to the dark elf problem and decided that since she was now what she hated, might as well go whole hog and try to destroy the world/and or blot out the sun. Whether this is still part of Golarion's 'lore' is open to question. (I don't think it's 'elves can't be evil at all without going drow, there's plenty of evil elves who don't, it's just 'there's a random chance of it'.) unseenlibrarian fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Dec 2, 2016 |
# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:27 |
|
1. Elves are chameleon-like and adapt their features to their environment. 2. Drow live underground, have dark skin to hide among rocks and shadows. There, non-racist Drow origin. As for their society, uh...
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:28 |
|
How the hell do game writers keep slamming face first into the Drow and not go 'Hey man maybe this is a bad idea and sorta hosed up'
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:28 |
|
Kavak posted:1. Elves are chameleon-like and adapt their features to their environment. That is explicitly how Elves work in Golarion..... with the added caveat that if they turn evil their skin turns black to match their soul.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:32 |
|
The funniest, silliest, stupidest, best thing about Good Drow is still Eilistraee, the drow goddess who dances naked in the moonlight because of loving course, Ed Greenwood. The only take on "becoming drow" I like is Malcolm Sheppard's; I remember him saying something about his AD&D game where drow are elves who drink nanite-infused water to drive themselves insane. Because you have to be insane to live in underground cities full of spiders and Lovecraftian monsters. FMguru posted:That 1978 Poul Anderson essay On Thud And Blunder captures the mindset pretty well. The idea that there's a concrete, consistent, concrete foundation underlying your favorite stories that you can engage with is a really seductive part of fantasy worldbuilding. Evil Mastermind posted:That "On Thud and Blunder" article is some pure-strain loving grog. It's like the "contractors on the Death Star" joke from Clerks but dead serious. But of course he sounds very silly when he starts making pronouncements on the precise details of knife-fighting and sword-forging.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:33 |
|
Kurieg posted:That is explicitly how Elves work in Golarion..... with the added caveat that if they turn evil their skin turns black to match their soul. That's like...taking two steps forward, then running back the way you came screaming.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:36 |
|
Because Drow were made in a simpler (read: more racist) time, and people then didn't know any better. Now it's a big part of the lore of D&D, especially with the existence of Drizzt. A lot of gamers remember it fondly, without thinking about the imlications. Nerds are terrible about identifying with their media, so when you call drow racist, they become very defensive. If they even acknowledge that it could possibly be racist, they try to "fix" the concept, when it's not really fixable without changing it entirely (either drow aren't more evil than other elves, or they aren't dark skinned).
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:38 |
|
Which is why 4e changed it. The drow culture is the way it is because Lloth is a goddamn demon spider who wants everyone to suffer maximally. Absent her being a cosmic slumlord and presented with an opportunity for escape several drow did, they're still angry dour people but they aren't "Always Chaotic Evil".
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:50 |
|
Kurieg posted:Which is why 4e changed it. The drow culture is the way it is because Lloth is a goddamn demon spider who wants everyone to suffer maximally. Absent her being a cosmic slumlord and presented with an opportunity for escape several drow did, they're still angry dour people but they aren't "Always Chaotic Evil". right, except they also have an epic destiny where the reward is to be reborn as a good [light-skinned] elf
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 19:58 |
|
They were generally less lovely in 4e, but yeah, there were still lovely things.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:05 |
|
On the one hand, it's literally reborn, as in once you die your soul get put into an infant elf just born somewhere in the world with absolutely no memory of your previous life. The idea being that FR Lloth literally has a claim on every drow's soul and regardless of what you do you're doomed to a life of damnation, it's just that most PC caliber drow don't give a gently caress and would rather spend their lives doing something other than servitude to her. On the other hand this is the tag line quote:You have ever struggled to rise above the darkness clouding your heart, but now you have the chance to prove to the world that you are different from all the rest. nyeeeggghhhhh JackMann posted:They were generally less lovely in 4e, but yeah, there were still lovely things. Basically this, they did a lot to move FR forward in 4e but some of the poo poo still stuck to their boots. FWIW I looked it up and that was written by Robert J. Schwalb and it was also like their.. fourth ever dragon magazine? The entire article goes on about how they are literally cursed and doomed by Lloth and Corellion. Which is true. Even Ellistrae is cursed for all eternity because she was caught on the wrong side of the Elven Godswar. And Forgotten Realms being what it is, evil gods need worshippers so their followers were brought down with them. And the Drow are forced to worship their pantheon because to not do so would curse them to a fate that's somehow worse than eternal damnation. What I'm getting at here is that Forgotten Realms is terrible and more people should play Eberron. Kurieg fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Dec 2, 2016 |
# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:07 |
|
Kurieg posted:On the one hand, it's literally reborn, as in once you die your soul get put into an infant elf just born somewhere in the world with absolutely no memory of your previous life. The idea being that FR Lloth literally has a claim on every drow's soul and regardless of what you do you're doomed to a life of damnation,
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:22 |
|
Halloween Jack posted:At least this is well in keeping with D&D's cosmology, where Evil is a particle (or maybe a protein). I think it's one of those wave-particle dualities. It's definitely an energy sometimes so that detect evil can pick up 'evil auras'.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:30 |
|
"Detect Evil" is literally just a Geiger counter.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:32 |
|
While I think that Drow tend to be garbage, considering them to be racist caricatures is a bit reaching. I mean, we've classically associated the colour black with evil stuff in general, so going: "When evil, paint it black" or "When he turns evil, he puts on a black cloak." doesn't necessarily associate it with any minorities. And secondly, the black is the only thing they'd have in common with any minorities. It's not like they're known for their spider tacos or their rap songs worshipping Lolth.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:35 |
|
Not a legit solution since race change effects in general are a bad plan but I played a campaign where normal elves are pitch black because, well sun god, and the punishment for losing the sun gods favor was losing the protection from the sun until you basically became super Irish and avoided sunlight purely due to skin irritation. Ways to lose the sun gods favor included things like marrying outside the faith, leaving the forest, etc so these people still weren't evil they just weren't orthodox elves.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:39 |
|
PurpleXVI posted:While I think that Drow tend to be garbage, considering them to be racist caricatures is a bit reaching. I mean, we've classically associated the colour black with evil stuff in general, so going: "When evil, paint it black" or "When he turns evil, he puts on a black cloak." doesn't necessarily associate it with any minorities. And secondly, the black is the only thing they'd have in common with any minorities. It's not like they're known for their spider tacos or their rap songs worshipping Lolth. their skin is black. because they are evil. that is almost exactly identical to one of the traditional racist myths about black people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Ham but hey, as long as they aren't a one-for-one mapping of every racist thing anyone has ever said then it must be fine, right?
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:51 |
|
There's a fabled thread on Stormfront where people were assuring this one racist D&D player that it's okay to be a fan of Drizzt, he's one of the good ones. So even if Drow are not intended to be racist caricatures, racists take them as such.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 20:57 |
|
I find the skin color of drow weird anyways, regardless of possible racist implications. I mean, I'm probably falling into the already mentioned trap of applying too much realism and stuff, but they live underground. They should be near-blind albinoes at best and a Pan's-Labyrinth version of Morlocks at worst. Night10194 posted:One of the nice things about the Warhams Fantasy Dark Elves? They're just, uh, they're assholes. That's it. They're not even a separate race. They're just one side of an ancient succession struggle and massive slaving dicks. This is how you should do this kind of thing. It always gets me when human nations can have any alignment under the sun, but dwarves and elves need a whole different sub-race for every possible alignment, terrain, average temperature and humidity. Considering that it's always the humans that are the short-lived and highly adaptable species, it should be they who have splintered off into thousands of sub-races. Humans in your typical fantasy world should be an entire race of the most special of snowflakes, with about the same variety in body shapes and sizes as One Piece. (Though this does give me a weird idea about a possible Heartbreaker where there are only elves. And every elves is its own sub-race. The metaplot will make sure that all the popular ones are already taken.) PurpleXVI posted:While I think that Drow tend to be garbage, considering them to be racist caricatures is a bit reaching. I mean, we've classically associated the colour black with evil stuff in general, so going: "When evil, paint it black" or "When he turns evil, he puts on a black cloak." doesn't necessarily associate it with any minorities. And secondly, the black is the only thing they'd have in common with any minorities. It's not like they're known for their spider tacos or their rap songs worshipping Lolth. You know how you can do the whole "black is the evil color" with style? Give the bad guys black armor. Preferably with spikes. Oh, and has anyone heard of 50 Copper and Ludi'drizz't before? Doresh fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Dec 2, 2016 |
# ? Dec 2, 2016 21:01 |
|
Doresh posted:You know how you can do the whole "black is the evil color" with style? Give the bad guys black armor. Preferably with spikes.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 21:07 |
|
Halloween Jack posted:Dig these fuckin' Paladins of Lolth: Now that's a Prestige Class I can get behind. I bet they can pull off a Smiting Shoulder Bash.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 21:10 |
|
Doresh posted:You know how you can do the whole "black is the evil color" with style? Give the bad guys black armor. Preferably with spikes. Hence why Drow are stupid and hamfisted, but not necessarily racist by design. The fact that some weirdo nazi fucks see something racist in them is an entirely different matter. They'd probably see a call to power for proud aryans in a box of cornflakes.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 21:11 |
|
PurpleXVI posted:Hence why Drow are stupid and hamfisted, but not necessarily racist by design. The fact that some weirdo nazi fucks see something racist in them is an entirely different matter. They'd probably see a call to power for proud aryans in a box of cornflakes. Basically like those religious nutjobs who can't look at any piece of popular media without scanning it for potential satanic symbolism?
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 21:15 |
|
Doresh posted:Now that's a Prestige Class I can get behind. I bet they can pull off a Smiting Shoulder Bash.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 21:15 |
|
Doresh posted:Now that's a Prestige Class I can get behind. I bet they can pull off a Smiting Shoulder Bash.
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 21:17 |
|
|
# ? Jun 5, 2024 21:37 |
|
The only drows I liked were the Eberron ones. Although if I ever play in the Forgotten Realms setting again, I have a concept for "Snowdrift" (real name unpronounceable), the most annoyingly cheerful optimistic and good natured Drow ever. No angst for this guy, he dashes in to the rescues and is completely oblivious to everyone reacting with fear to his arrival. Probably a Paladin, although a Cleric of the Sun God works too. I also want to play a Mind-FLayer Paladin one of these days. You see, he only eats the brains of really evil people, and only as a last resort!
|
# ? Dec 2, 2016 21:23 |