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I noticed there actually can be a significant vassalization/annex AE difference sometimes. And it can be handy in the short term if you're low on adm points to core that poo poo.
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Dec 2, 2016 23:41
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Straight up vassaling is v good in the early game when having an extra buffer state and a few more troops can seriously swing a war.
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Dec 2, 2016 23:50
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literally all of you are misunderstanding my last post, which probably means that i wrote it really clearly
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Dec 2, 2016 23:52
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It would be cool if they made force vassalizing more viable in general, because "catch and release" feels a little too gamey for me. Like if you could forge a claim of overlordship on someone, or something like that. It sucks that the vassalization CB is only from rare events and missions.
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Dec 2, 2016 23:59
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TO CLARIFY option a: declare war on poor schmuck, occupy them, select the 'vassalize' option from the peace menu option b: declare war on poor schmuck, occupy them, select the 'annex' option from the peace menu, then release them as a vassal. don't core them, don't sit around, just release 'em my post was saying: (b) is generally better than (a). there are exceptions, and it looks like Baronjutter is right about AE being higher for conquest (at least sometimes), which is potentially important to keep in mind! but nothing i was writing suggested using admin points to core things, or waiting for cooldown timers, or not having a vassal, or anything like that. Fister Roboto posted:It would be cool if they made force vassalizing more viable in general, because "catch and release" feels a little too gamey for me. Like if you could forge a claim of overlordship on someone, or something like that. It sucks that the vassalization CB is only from rare events and missions. yeah, i really miss peace deals that weren't just "take land and cash and sometimes annul treaties". in eu3 and launch eu4, it was really useful to release countries to weaken enemies. the diplo cost means it's almost never useful these days, and i kinda miss it!
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Dec 2, 2016 23:59
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Ithle01 posted:Nice opening, but the real trick with Novgorod is not to annex their territory, but to wait until Novgorod is under 100% war score then vassalize them and declare war on Muscovy to return the very good cores they have. Then eventually annex Novgorod once you've fed them enough land and liberty desire goes too high. If you do this it practically guarantees that Muscovy will be substantially weaker going through the game because the AI is dumb and won't change its trade capital despite making less than 30% of the money from all the trade it's redirecting to you - thus financially crippling Muscovy while funneling cash into your coffers in the Baltic. Just keep this in mind if Muscovy takes the rest of Novgorod you can release them and get them back that way, although some of the less valuable Eastern cores may disappear by then. You're forgetting one of the best examples of this, Persia. Ming can be very, very good as well if they explode and get overrun. I realize those don't really matter to Sweden, just saying.
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Dec 3, 2016 00:12
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PleasingFungus posted:in eu3 and launch eu4, it was really useful to release countries to weaken enemies. the diplo cost means it's almost never useful these days, and i kinda miss it! In EU3 I always used to take the national idea that gave you the Liberation CB to make it easier to release countries in peace deals. I wish EU4 had something similar.
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Dec 3, 2016 00:23
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It would be interesting if it were easier to gain subjects but harder to annex them. Like you had three stages: 1.) Protectorate 2.) Vassal 3.) Puppet Everything you get starts out as a protectorate and has to be moved up the stages by various means as you strip away their independence. Only puppets could be diploannexed. Protectorates could break away relatively easily, vassals less so, puppets barely at all. Protectorates could be fairly easy-come-easy-go.
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Dec 3, 2016 00:30
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vassals/PU stuff should have different mechanics around independence, almost like the current local autonomy system it would be cool if you could just steadily reduce independence and have a variety of mechanics associated with that, and when you hit 0 the vassal/pu is automatically inherited
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Dec 3, 2016 00:33
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Tsyni posted:I realize those don't really matter to Sweden, just saying. only if you're being some lame half assed sweden
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Dec 3, 2016 00:33
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PleasingFungus posted:TO CLARIFY I don't think that I have ever been in a situation where the AE was lower for total annexation than for forced vassalization. Maybe if you have a reconquest CB. And if you Release then they get all of their cores, even if you also already have a core in those provinces, which can be a huge downside. E: I didn't read your previous post until now but it looks like you hit on my only big complaint. But I am pretty certain that the AE for force vassalization is lower than annexation, possibly at a 75 percent discount? QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Dec 3, 2016 |
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Dec 3, 2016 01:05
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Fister Roboto posted:It would be cool if they made force vassalizing more viable in general, because "catch and release" feels a little too gamey for me. Like if you could forge a claim of overlordship on someone, or something like that. It sucks that the vassalization CB is only from rare events and missions. Not only that but they nerfed those missions over and over to make it so that you can never get a subjugation CB when it's actually more than vaguely useful (which is why Poland almost never vassals TO any more, since TO never ends up weak enough to allow that mission to fire and then they just get annexed instead) I would like it a lot if the game had more expansion through various different types of influencing foreign states rather than just straight up annexing poo poo.
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Dec 3, 2016 01:06
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Speaking of vassals, i'm chugging along in my Ottoman game and have added about 15 provinces so far. However I seem to have a significant penalty on trying to peacefully make anyone a vassal for my economic base? I'm the number 1 ranked power in the world and have a strong economy (I think). I haven't done a ton of increasing development of my provinces however (about 15 times total). How is this mechanism meant to work and what do I do about it? I kinda like the idea of having some vassals at least for a while.
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Dec 3, 2016 02:07
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jpparker55 posted:Speaking of vassals, i'm chugging along in my Ottoman game and have added about 15 provinces so far. However I seem to have a significant penalty on trying to peacefully make anyone a vassal for my economic base? I'm the number 1 ranked power in the world and have a strong economy (I think). I haven't done a ton of increasing development of my provinces however (about 15 times total). That penalty is effectively the negative modifier for how much development the ones you're trying to annex have. It means they have 40 development, you are going to have to try hard to get them to submit. It'll also go down the bigger you become. Also know that diplo-vassalizing is pretty drat hard to do in general.
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Dec 3, 2016 02:34
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Pellisworth posted:I'm doing a Sweden run and you really have to watch your AE. There's a lot more development and provinces in Denmark and you don't start with cores on Skane anymore so it's going to take a few wars and letting your AE cool down with northern Germany. I just took the Renaissance hitting as a reason to develop Dalaskogen. Copper is a good trade good and boosts your pitiful income and the rest of Sweden's development is so terrible that embracing the Renaissance is incredibly cheap once it's present there. Even cheaper if you wait for Stockholm to get it. Unrelated, but for the devs posting here there's a slight UI bug/error in the Malay cultural group where "madagascan" (all lower case) is listed as part of the group and the actual cultures present there aren't part of my culture group. GEORGE W BUSHI fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Dec 3, 2016 |
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Dec 3, 2016 03:58
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jpparker55 posted:Speaking of vassals, i'm chugging along in my Ottoman game and have added about 15 provinces so far. However I seem to have a significant penalty on trying to peacefully make anyone a vassal for my economic base? I'm the number 1 ranked power in the world and have a strong economy (I think). I haven't done a ton of increasing development of my provinces however (about 15 times total). Diplomatic vassalization is mostly likely to work on one-province nations that share a border, religion, and I think culture with you, assuming you are a pretty large nation. The more provinces, the less likely they are to submit. If they have more than 100 total development don't bother trying, you are never going to get that to happen even if you are ruling half the world so just beat them up and force vassalize/catch and release them.
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Dec 3, 2016 04:27
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What is the release part of catch and release? Like, which specific screeens/buttons do you click to get the right result? E: rad thanks, I was always looking at 'release client state' or 'return core to vassal' and could never find it. Just out of curiosity, what religion do they get released with? Forcing religion on vassals is always a huge pain awesmoe fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Dec 3, 2016 |
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Dec 3, 2016 04:34
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awesmoe posted:What is the release part of catch and release? Like, which specific screeens/buttons do you click to get the right result? When viewing your own country on the diplomacy screen, there should be a little flag button at the bottom right. Clicking that should give you a list of all the countries you can release.
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Dec 3, 2016 04:37
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Wow I just triggered a world war, absolutely fantastic! I've played a ton of Civ and one thing I always wished was for the possibility of world wars. Currently 1492, I got a mission to take Caffa from Genoa who were allied with France and some smaller powers. Had a look at my strength relatives to Frances and I'm a lot stronger so said screw it and declared. No one has dented the turks so far. Suddenly I was at war with 15 different nations! Including Castille, England, Austria, Scotland, Venice and Aragon (clearly I'm the nazis in this world war...). I just have my vassals Wallachia and Syria to help me, when suddenly I get a message the great power Burgundy has decided to aid me (not sure why I totally deserve a beat down but hey I appreciate it) and they bring all their buddies. We're still about 100k men down in strength but I figure Burgundy will take the beat down for me while I smash individual armies coming for my territories. What a fantastic game!
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Dec 3, 2016 05:27
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Bold Robot posted:Yeah I have definitely pulled this move in the past after winning the league war when I just want to stay emperor and don't care about IA. Unclear if his AI is being clever and playing like a human or just glitching. My bet would be its unwilling to make someone an elector who wouldn't vote for them, and no one who qualifies would.
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Dec 3, 2016 05:59
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awesmoe posted:E: rad thanks, I was always looking at 'release client state' or 'return core to vassal' and could never find it. I believe it's the the majority religion based on provinces they have cores in. If it's someone tiny and you have all their cores you can just convert most of them and they should be your religion. It often doesn't go that way, because you're releasing them to get at their other cores, usually. Forcing religion when they are small is pretty easy, as long as you have some prestige to throw at them and lower their liberty desire.
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Dec 3, 2016 07:39
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Tsyni posted:I believe it's the the majority religion based on provinces they have cores in. It is, but I think based on Development totals rather than province count.
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Dec 3, 2016 07:41
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Tsyni posted:You're forgetting one of the best examples of this, Persia. Ming can be very, very good as well if they explode and get overrun. I realize those don't really matter to Sweden, just saying. Yeah, both of those are great although the problem with Ming is that they end up with so many cores you can't keep them loyal. Persia sometimes falls into this, but overall good choice for a vassal. Mamluks/Syria/Iraq are another great set in that area. PleasingFungus posted:It's not very useful to vassalize countries in peace deals, these days. Unless you have the Vassalization CB, I don't think there's any AE or diplo point discount for vassalizing - it tends to cost more diplo to vassalize, actually - and the vassalized country will have a large negative relations penalty with you for forcibly vassalizing them. As for catch and release, yup it works great I didn't really think to specify that so oops, my mistake. It can matter for religion, but usually that's not important. Anyway, Atreidan is already all over this, at the time I thought he was a new player.
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Dec 3, 2016 08:41
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Ithle01 posted:Yeah, both of those are great although the problem with Ming is that they end up with so many cores you can't keep them loyal. Persia sometimes falls into this, but overall good choice for a vassal. Mamluks/Syria/Iraq are another great set in that area. Oh, totally. Persia is a wild beast. Unless I am massive I try and integrate them as soon as possible and get all those juicy cores. There's definitely a very fine line. I don't know if I'd recommend it to new players, unless they are beastly and no one will support Persia's independence. Especially now that if a province defects from someone else to your vassal they get a ton of liberty desire. Once you have Persia you need to break Timurids immediately or get ready for like 300% liberty desire when all of Persia breaks free of them. I am playing an Ottoman game right now and placating them from 100 prestige to -20, they are sitting at 40 liberty desire, with about 2/3 of their provinces, and only two small provinces defected.
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Dec 3, 2016 08:55
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jpparker55 posted:Wow I just triggered a world war, absolutely fantastic! I've played a ton of Civ and one thing I always wished was for the possibility of world wars. You call that a world war? Come back when you have 50k+ troops fighting on every continent at the same time.
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Dec 3, 2016 15:41
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PittTheElder posted:It is, but I think based on Development totals rather than province count. It is development, but the original religion gets double the weight.
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Dec 3, 2016 16:21
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Atreiden posted:Cool didn't know that. In my +1000 hours playing this game, the AI have offered me a province exactly one time Elotana posted:Is there a way to demand provinces from your vassals/lesser union partners? I would be perfectly happy cutting Spain loose if they'd give me their three African provinces and Mauritius. Otherwise I'm gonna need to burn a century of diplo points to paint the entirety of Africa.
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Dec 3, 2016 17:08
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:The Ruler Personalities is one of the new features in Rights of Man. You can seize a province from a protectorate but I don't think you can take one from a vassal even if you have a claim without an event making it happen.
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Dec 3, 2016 17:21
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I need a little help figuring out when to pick return core or cede province in a peace deal. Scotland got beat up by England and was reduced to three provinces. I vassalize Scotland and declare on England with a reconquest CB. However at the peace deal it seems that it's better for me to have England cede provinces to Sctoland, rather than having them return cores.  I have the occupation of the provinces and tell England to give the cores back to Scotland. It costs more in the peace deal, I get 15 AE and a pitiful amount of PP.  I give the occupation to Scotland and tell England to cede the provinces. It costs less in the peace deal, I get 10 AE, and way more PP. All in all it looks like ceding provinces is way better than returning cores, so what excactly is the deal with returning cores? When does it become the better choice? Also in regards on how to Sweden and vassalizing Novgorod, how do you guys keep Novgorod happy? I got them vassalized as Denmark, and even after eating Norway and Sweden, Novgorod is still sitting at 50-60% liberty desire. I think it's only my solid alliance with Poland-Lithuania that's keeping people from supporting Novgorod's independence.
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Dec 3, 2016 17:36
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Cede Province is superior in this case because they're Scottish cores and you used the Reconquest CB.
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Dec 3, 2016 17:51
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I've seen some weird situations with the reconquest-for-vassal CB. Whether returning cores or ceding relevant provinces are cheaper seems completely inconsistent -- sometimes it's one, sometimes the other. I have no idea what makes it happen or why. My best guess is autonomy factors into one and not the other, as returning cores was cheaper when I was a horde fighting another horde, but  Also iirc the ceding provinces part of the reconquest CB only scopes to the specific vassal whose core you chose as the wargoal, so if you're trying to feed two at once from the same target you'll either have to return cores for the second or eat diplo points for ceding provinces Allyn fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Dec 3, 2016 |
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Dec 3, 2016 18:12
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Return core doesn't require the guy you want to return the core to to be involved in the war at all. Use it if you want to strengthen an enemy's neighbors at their expense. Useful in the HRE sometimes but rarely otherwise.
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Dec 3, 2016 19:45
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Returning cores is useful if you want prettier borders.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:44
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AnoHito posted:You call that a world war? Come back when you have 50k+ troops fighting on every continent at the same time. 50k on every continent what is that 300k at most? Several patches ago I fielded an army of about 800 000 as Revolotionary France, supported by my client states Republican Spain and Italy who each provided about 150 000 troops, and I thought a coalition of mostly Germans and Eastern European countries who had about 800 000 troops total as well. Ended up losing the pivotal battle in Pfalz though as my client states wouldn't loving reinforce me and I had penalties for attacking. That was a pretty insane one.
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Dec 3, 2016 20:50
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Creed Reunion Tour posted:Also in regards on how to Sweden and vassalizing Novgorod, how do you guys keep Novgorod happy? I got them vassalized as Denmark, and even after eating Norway and Sweden, Novgorod is still sitting at 50-60% liberty desire. I think it's only my solid alliance with Poland-Lithuania that's keeping people from supporting Novgorod's independence. First, try having a larger army so that your vassal's liberty desire goes down. Although I'm guessing you've already tried this so we'll go onto other options. You can placate them but that burns prestige you need to keep your PUs over Sweden and Norway so maybe not the best idea unless you have enormous amounts of prestige. A third option that is to boost your dip rep, but that's probably not going to happen. Lastly, there's a new option if you bought Rights of Man and that's to develop in them. Each time you develop you temporarily subtract 5 liberty desire. If you're going to annex them anyway just think of it as a small tax in dip points to keep a vassal happy while you eat them.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:26
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Creed Reunion Tour posted:All in all it looks like ceding provinces is way better than returning cores, so what excactly is the deal with returning cores? When does it become the better choice? Return Core is for returning cores to countries that you don't control, otherwise it's equivalent to taking those provinces with a slightly discounted Conquest CB (in terms of AE). When you're using a Reconquest CB, you definitely don't want to use Return Core to give provinces to your vassals; you want to transfer ownership of those provinces to whatever vassal owns the core, and then demand those provinces normally. Return Core is there to let you force your opponent to cede provinces to some other nation. Allyn posted:I've seen some weird situations with the reconquest-for-vassal CB. Whether returning cores or ceding relevant provinces are cheaper seems completely inconsistent -- sometimes it's one, sometimes the other. I have no idea what makes it happen or why. My best guess is autonomy factors into one and not the other, as returning cores was cheaper when I was a horde fighting another horde, but 1) You need to be sure that you declare with the Reconquest CB. It's easy to misclick and use the wrong CB, such as Conquest or Holy War, in which case you don't get the AE benefits of Reconquest (see the countless people in this thread complaining about how easy it is to accidentally declare with the Humiliate CB) 2) You need to be sure that you transfer occupation ownership to the vassal that owns the core before demanding it on the peace deal screen. This is extremely important. Also, don't use Return Core as that doesn't give you the benefits of Reconquest. If a Reconquest CB has been used, then everyone with cores gets 25% AE when demanding them during a peace deal, include all of your vassals, including any allies that you bring along, and including yourself. But this is only true if ownership of the province in question has been transferred to the core owner. Using Return Core does not ever give you the 25% AE benefit. You can use your country's Reconquest CB or your vassals', it doesn't matter so long as you make sure that provinces are being returned to the correct core owners. Any provinces that you demand without transferring to a core owner suffer the normal 100% AE cost, as though you declared with a Conquest CB. This includes transferring to the wrong vassal; if Hungary actually owns a core but you transfer ownership to Austria, you simply won't benefit from the AE reduction even if they're both your vassals/lesser partner in PU/etc. Any provinces that you demand from non-belligerents do not benefit from the Reconquest CB and suffer the normal 150% AE cost. Following the rules above, I always get the 25% AE benefit for taking back cored provinces. Apparently the rules changed sometime in the last year, and you should always use Return Core. I ran some tests with the following setup Burgundy with Vassals Dauphine (located in Lyonnais) and Champagne (located in Nemours) Dauphine has core on province Dauphine, owned by France Champagne has core on province Champagne, owned by France Burgundy has core on province Bourbon, owned by France If Burgundy declares a reconquest war for Bourbon and transfers occupation ownership of Dauphine and Champagne, AE costs are Champagne - 20 Dauphine - 14 Bourbon - 4 Return Core Champagne - 5 Return Core Dauphine - 3 If Burgundy declares a reconquest war for Champagne, AE costs are: Champagne - 5 Dauphine - 14 Bourbon - 4 Return Core Champagne - 5 Return Core Dauphine - 3 This is different than how things used to work, so I guess the current rules are just 1) Declare a Reconquest CB, using either your own Reconquest CB or a vassal's 2) Use Return Core for your vassals' cores It's certainly a lot easier doing things this way than having to mess around with transferring ownership (which you still need to make effective use of a vassal's claims, I'm pretty sure) QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Dec 4, 2016 |
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Dec 3, 2016 21:45
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Ithle01 posted:First, try having a larger army so that your vassal's liberty desire goes down. Although I'm guessing you've already tried this so we'll go onto other options. You can placate them but that burns prestige you need to keep your PUs over Sweden and Norway so maybe not the best idea unless you have enormous amounts of prestige. A third option that is to boost your dip rep, but that's probably not going to happen. Lastly, there's a new option if you bought Rights of Man and that's to develop in them. Each time you develop you temporarily subtract 5 liberty desire. If you're going to annex them anyway just think of it as a small tax in dip points to keep a vassal happy while you eat them. Prestige actually doesn't effect whether you lose the PU anymore. Negative prestige does increase liberty desire, but the PU won't end if you have negative prestige. It's based on whether they have a positive opinion of you, so if your leader dies and they have a negative opinion of you, the PU ends.
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Dec 3, 2016 21:57
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QuarkJets posted:Return Core is for returning cores to countries that you don't control, otherwise it's equivalent to taking those provinces with a slightly discounted Conquest CB (in terms of AE). When you're using a Reconquest CB, you definitely don't want to use Return Core to give provinces to your vassals; you want to transfer ownership of those provinces to whatever vassal owns the core, and then demand those provinces normally. None of your conclusions are true for the vassal reconquest CB. Here I'm playing as QQ. Tabarestan and Ardalan are my vassals. (I consoled to set it up.) I declare war on Timurids, occupy them, transfer occupations to the appropriate vassals (Golestan and Kirmanshah respectively), and here's the peace screen:  Kirmanshah is the wargoal. It costs 0 dip to go to Ardalan. Golestan costs 21 and about 3 AE to go to Tabarestan. And yet they have a core on it. Here's the return core screen:  Where both cost 0 dip, and Golestan now gives 1 AE. (I didn't get a screenshot of it but Kermanshah's so low dev that it would've given < 1 AE on its own.) The vassal reconquest CB is absolutely tied to the whomever's core is the wargoal; any others are unjustified demands. Maybe it's different if you use a request CB for your own core but it's not exactly common that you'll be able to do that.
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Dec 3, 2016 22:11
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Allyn posted:None of your conclusions are true for the vassal reconquest CB. Here I'm playing as QQ. Tabarestan and Ardalan are my vassals. (I consoled to set it up.) I declare war on Timurids, occupy them, transfer occupations to the appropriate vassals (Golestan and Kirmanshah respectively), and here's the peace screen: I suspect that's a recent change, since I very clearly remember Return Core costing diplo even during a relevant reconquest war. Good to know, though!
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Dec 3, 2016 22:38
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Tsyni posted:Prestige actually doesn't effect whether you lose the PU anymore. Negative prestige does increase liberty desire, but the PU won't end if you have negative prestige. It's based on whether they have a positive opinion of you, so if your leader dies and they have a negative opinion of you, the PU ends. wow, completely missed that change and I just finished a Denmark game too. Thanks, I must've missed that in the patch notes from way back when, guess I can't cheese the Poland-Lithuania split by beating the hell out of Poland in a war or two anymore.
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Dec 3, 2016 22:53
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