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Serf posted:I see it happen with nerd arguments all the time. Guess I shouldn't be surprised it happens in politics too. e: bernie porn
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Dec 4, 2016 02:22
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logikv9 posted:are canadian politics this awful or are you still busy drooling over your male model prime minister still? we've actually taken a step up recently, now we're just "bad" instead of "extremely bad"
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Dec 4, 2016 02:26
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GlyphGryph posted:I skipped a couple of pages. I couldnt read anymore. Some of you people actually, legitmately disgust me, to the point where if I did not genuinely believe the party could be saved from you and people like you, I would despair. well, sorry, but i think you really fundamentally misunderstand my viewpoint. i've dedicated my adult life to improving the lives and standards of the working poor and the middle class. my actual career is democratic politics. i don't make a lot of money, i've worked in 8 states in the past 5 years. i'm unemployed for 3-4 months a year and scrape by until i get my next gig. and i do that because i really believe what i do is worthwhile, and that i do it a lot better than most other people in equivalent jobs. and as a matter of fact i've spent the last 6 months in a deep red state running a statewide gotv program to make sure a whole lot of people don't lose access to medicaid. and we achieved very high turnout and succeeded by the narrowest of margins, so tens of thousands of people won't lose access to their healthcare for at least another 4 years. so i am, in a way, deeply vested in the democratic party's fate. i want it to be better - make bold proposals that inspire people, to stand for something and not just be the guys that aren't republicans. obviously i don't think we should "abandon people to terrible fates," but my point has been that we should not make insane, radical promises that aren't true because it wins elections. this is what trump did when he promised that coal jobs will come back to west virginia. they aren't. that doesn't mean the democratic party should abandon the people of west virginia to their fates - in fact, we have a moral obligation to help them. it is a national disgrace that the richest nation on earth has a region as poor as the appalachians. so when it comes to bold proposals to invest deeply in that region of the country, i'm in favor of it. i think it's fair to say that hillary did not go far enough there. but i also think it's fair to say that even the most ambitious plan to re-develop those areas is going to take a very long time because it's poor for a reason - it sucks at basically everything except coal. i'm in favor of any plan to lessen the impact there, but i don't think we should lie. nor should we be under any delusion that the democratic party's policies haven't made life significantly worse in that region and won't continue to do so as long as we are fighting to preserve the climate. quote:You act as if have a problem with words, fundamentally. As if you dont understand how people actually communicate. I dont think thats true anymore - I think its intentional. This focus on post truth politics by so many is a red herring - in reality, it is anger that people are ignoring your simple facts and actually understanding the underlying message you do not want to communicate. i never said "these people cannot truly be helped," but rather argued that we should be realistic as to what life there is going to be like. that we ignored decades of opportunities to invest there and now we have to deal with the fact that there are no quick and easy solutions now that king coal is dying. and yes, i do think hillary wanted to genuinely help the people there. it's a state very similar to arkansas, and she did a lot of work there as first lady of arkansas to help poor whites and especially women & children. none of these ideas are contradictory. quote:So let me write it out, as clear as I can: You make me ashamed to call myself a Democrat. Do your part to save the party by disappearing into the wilderness for the next four years. If all you have to offer is opposition instead of alternatives, you dont have anything to offer at all, so gently caress off. how about : no. the party is going to have people who disagree with you. as a party we stand for the idea that government is a force for good that can achieve a more just and equitable society. anyone who shares that ideology ought to be have a place in the party. there are too many people who apply an absurd reductionist policy of "everyone who disagrees with X issue is a corrupt wall streeter," and that's pretty hosed up and incredibly destructive.
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Dec 4, 2016 02:27
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i, anime schoolgirl, of the new california republic state of dayglow, decree that democratic party discussion thread snipes must now be christened with the phrase "bernie porn"
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Dec 4, 2016 02:29
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Can it be Bernie and Biden porn?
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Dec 4, 2016 02:37
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fyi if you're arguing policy you're already falling into the Democratic Wonk Dork's trap people don't give a gently caress about specific policy they want charismatic populists who will throw bricks at the establishment learn your lessons, stop paying attention to the Very Smart Serious People, smh
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Dec 4, 2016 02:38
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LinYutang posted:fyi if you're arguing policy you're already falling into the Democratic Wonk Dork's trap well people keep saying this but it doesn't seem to be true except on presidential level, and even then by a decided minority
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Dec 4, 2016 02:39
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imo Very Serious Liberals showed their true colors throughout the election, even after this massive failing they're not actually serious about the business of politics and building a coalition so much as ego stroking
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Dec 4, 2016 02:46
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Concerned Citizen posted:it doesn't seem to be true except on presidential level "the tea party revolution was built on a mastery of policy detail and number crunching", says Introspective Liberal after third straight losing election
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Dec 4, 2016 02:54
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Concerned Citizen posted:i think it's fair to say that hillary did not go far enough there. but i also think it's fair to say that even the most ambitious plan to re-develop those areas is going to take a very long time because it's poor for a reason - it sucks at basically everything except coal. i'm in favor of any plan to lessen the impact there, but i don't think we should lie. nor should we be under any delusion that the democratic party's policies haven't made life significantly worse in that region and won't continue to do so as long as we are fighting to preserve the climate. Couldn't the Dems promise make work programs? Or even useful stuff like eco tourism developments, environmental reclamation, basic infrastructure. It wouldn't pass but it's not literally impossible nor does it hurt the climate.
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Dec 4, 2016 02:55
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LinYutang posted:"the tea party revolution was built on a mastery of policy detail and number crunching", says Introspective Liberal after third straight losing election Ted loving Cruz is part of the tea party. You cannot bring the word Charismatic anywhere close to that poo poo.
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Dec 4, 2016 02:57
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Fulchrum posted:Ted loving Cruz is part of the tea party. You cannot bring the word Charismatic anywhere close to that poo poo. He's got some sort of thing going for him considering he had the 2nd best GOP primary campaign Mind control?
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Dec 4, 2016 02:58
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Pollyanna posted:How about we just loving talk to the people in question like mugrim proposes? plenty of people already have, you all are just too busy pushing your own theories about the noble savages of coal country to notice
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Dec 4, 2016 03:00
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Fulchrum posted:Can it be Bernie and Biden porn? I think it has to be one or the other. I motion that a poll is created so users can vote on which one it should be. I do believe this can be amicably decided.
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Dec 4, 2016 03:29
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Does either man have to be made aware it is happening?
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Dec 4, 2016 03:43
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Main Paineframe posted:plenty of people already have, you all are just too busy pushing your own theories about the noble savages of coal country to notice Its always weird to me that people have such difficulty believing other people are fundamentally like them and have to make up condescending 'noble savage' narratives. They're people, not a bizarre sub-human offshoot species. Yinlock posted:i've kind of turned to the point where I don't automatically yell RACISM at anyone who disagrees but still feel racism is a serious problem that needs to be addressed, and not just in a "but fixing the economy will make racism less bad" way Of course racism is a serious problem, and of course economic assistance isn't a cure-all. But part of the racism is in circling the wagons against outsiders while their communities burn down. Its basic in group/out group. poo poo sucks, someone's to blame, that guy doesn't look like me. Also its difficult to understand or properly direct anger at vast macroeconomic trends, whereas its real easy to assume some 'welfare queen' is siphoning off all of your tax dollars and/or jobs programs because you never see any activity on your hollowed out Main Street while you keep reading on loving Breitbart about endless floods of immigrants. If you start injecting some *visible* money into communities it can help defuse tensions from economic distress so you can start working on the tensions from generations of cultural values. One way that *definitely* will not work though is blaming them for their own situations and telling them they should feel shame for being white. Shame is not a tool for positive change. LinYutang posted:"the tea party revolution was built on a mastery of policy detail and number crunching", says Introspective Liberal after third straight losing election The Tea Party was also built on dudes wearing silly hats and hearkening back to 'historical events' as justifying their dumb ideas. The Tea Party looked like *fun* to join, and it was organized around the principle of 'gently caress those other guys, tell them to stop stealing your stuff!' which is always going to find an audience. Mirthless posted:i think the only thing more tiring than tatum girlparts is people posting about tatum girlparts god yes.
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Dec 4, 2016 03:43
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No-one is saying that we need to shame these people for being white and racist. Just that this whiteness and racism is a massive obstacle that makes it a lot harder than just "have the democrats go door to door and hand people money". We need to acknowledge that, for lack of a better phrasing, entrenched views and attitudes held among them make them very hard to save since they do oppose straightforward measures to fix their most pressing problems. And of course someone is going to take this as proof that I think we need to murder them all and I dunno, eat their cats.
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Dec 4, 2016 03:52
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would be easier to just murder them tia
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Dec 4, 2016 03:53
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We can't solve all our problems by just killing any who oppose us. One of the survivors might grow to despise us and lead a one woman charge to destroy us and everything we stand for, using some hitherto unforseen plot device. Also, you know, dignity and ethics and human rights and stuff.
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Dec 4, 2016 03:56
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do we have to eat their cats?
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Dec 4, 2016 03:57
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This thread is good when it's cheerleading good Dem decisions and kibitzing over bad Dem decisions; this thread is bad when it's a huge slapfight between bad posters of opposing clans that said GlyphGryph's meltdown ruled, would read again fake-edit: I would go so far as to call it "nice"
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Dec 4, 2016 04:00
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Tatum Girlparts posted:but if we're going down the 'but I don't think anyone said this' path, is there literally anyone but idiots who no one cares about 'excluding economic factors' because it feels like this is one endless loop of neither side ACTUALLY saying to ignore the other, but deciding that unless the other side properly cushions their statements they clearly must want to Hilary and the DemE literally want to exclude economic issues, but idiots like you don't see it. On the contrary you embrace it!
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Dec 4, 2016 04:03
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Atrocious Joe posted:Couldn't the Dems promise make work programs? Or even useful stuff like eco tourism developments, environmental reclamation, basic infrastructure. Reminder that the last Make Work program was the TSA, and that was under Dubya Bush.
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Dec 4, 2016 04:04
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Dec 4, 2016 04:05
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Is that legal?
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Dec 4, 2016 04:09
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Fulchrum posted:No-one is saying that we need to shame these people for being white and racist. Just that this whiteness and racism is a massive obstacle that makes it a lot harder than just "have the democrats go door to door and hand people money". We need to acknowledge that, for lack of a better phrasing, entrenched views and attitudes held among them make them very hard to save since they do oppose straightforward measures to fix their most pressing problems. Have you, perhaps, never actually read literally anything from D&D? Or your own posts? Screeching about white privilege is the number one pastime of a certain kind of person. Yes it exists, no it is not in any way relevant to the people you are trying to reach or helpful to the discussions you need to have. Find another avenue.
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Dec 4, 2016 04:10
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multiple people in my news feed changed their facebook display names to something HRC-themed and/or posted about dressing up in pantsuits to vote on that most historic of election days why yes I do live in the bluest of all states LegoPirateNinja posted:Is that legal? It's certainly not hygienic
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Dec 4, 2016 04:14
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loquacius posted:multiple people in my news feed changed their facebook display names to something HRC-themed and/or posted about dressing up in pantsuits to vote on that most historic of election days Pretend I posted the the irony/prodromal thing but about pantsuits.
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Dec 4, 2016 04:21
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Phi230 posted:would be easier to just murder them tia Yeah this seems p easy
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Dec 4, 2016 04:22
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Not a Step posted:Have you, perhaps, never actually read literally anything from D&D? Or your own posts? Screeching about white privilege is the number one pastime of a certain kind of person. Yes it exists, no it is not in any way relevant to the people you are trying to reach or helpful to the discussions you need to have. Find another avenue. Are you seriously claiming that racism doesn't have a single solitary influence on the difficulty in getting people in these areas to accept and welcome stuff like heavily expanded welfare or even a gmi? We don't talk about in talks to them, but it's still an elephant in the room that must be acknowledged. We cannot just pretend we live in a post racial society and that these rust belt workers will look at city-based groups of African Americans also getting a living wage from the government and all think "good for them, they need it just as much as me". Fulchrum has issued a correction as of 04:25 on Dec 4, 2016 |
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Dec 4, 2016 04:23
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we'll make diamonds from their ashes
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Dec 4, 2016 04:30
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Drunkboxer posted:Yeah this seems p easy yeah dude death by guillotine lol done bye whitey
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Dec 4, 2016 04:30
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typical democrat voter fraud
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Dec 4, 2016 04:32
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Fulchrum posted:Are you seriously claiming that racism doesn't have a single solitary influence on the difficulty in getting people in these areas to accept and welcome stuff like heavily expanded welfare or even a gmi? We don't talk about in talks to them, but it's still an elephant in the room that must be acknowledged. We cannot just pretend we live in a post racial society and that these rust belt workers will look at city-based groups of African Americans also getting a living wage from the government and all think "good for them, they need it just as much as me". Yes, it exists. No, it is not in any way relevant to the people you are trying to reach, or helpful to the discussions you need to have. Find another avenue. E: When I say relevant, I mean relevant *to their way of thought*, not to their situation. Yes privilege is relevant to their situation, but trying to bring it up in discussion with them isn't going to get you anywhere because they don't feel privileged and you're not going to convince them otherwise. Talking about 'privilege' with under-privileged rust belters (or anyone) who happens to be white is sure to shut down any productive conversation immediately. Keep it to academia and circle jerks. Nix Panicus has issued a correction as of 04:35 on Dec 4, 2016 |
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Dec 4, 2016 04:32
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Not a Step posted:Yes, it exists. No, it is not in any way relevant to the people you are trying to reach, or helpful to the discussions you need to have. Find another avenue. I just loving said that we don't bring it up while talking to them you idiot. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 4, 2016 04:35
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Breitbart posted:PROOF OF VOTER FRAUD: CLINTON SUPPORTER ADMITS TO USING DEAD RELATIVES TO ARTIFICIALLY INFLATE CLINTON'S VOTES!
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Dec 4, 2016 04:40
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The dems need to focus on the working class over the next 4 years, affordable housing, single Payer/universal healthcare, increasing the minimum wage, tuition free public college/university, raising corporate taxes and closing loopholes to generate revenue, infrastructure improvement projects that train and hire unskilled workers etc.
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Dec 4, 2016 05:00
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Fulchrum posted:Can it be Bernie and Biden porn? Bernie MRA Bidet porn
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Dec 4, 2016 05:03
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There's a huge chunk of the populace that just doesn't vote, campaigning on issues that directly affect people and get them excited can turnout enough new voters to compensate the socially liberal and economically conservative voters that have hijacked the party and might drift over to Trump, most of these issues tend to poll well with independents.
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Dec 4, 2016 05:04
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Zoran posted:I understand this argument, but I really think you guys are overstating the impact this would have. If the change was made three years out from a presidential election, like in 2017, there would probably be a few weeks of controversy before everyone shrugs and forgets about it. 2020 candidates will start pressing flesh at fish fries next spring. Iowa would notice.
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Dec 4, 2016 05:04
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