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stone cold posted:Welp, discrimination is a tool, best keep revoking the civil and human rights of everybody who's not a white man! ....how does someone misread a post this badly? Absolutely nowhere in this argument, at all, have I said to stop fighting. Hell, effectronica was the one going "well if discrimination will always be possible then why bother"! And the point isnt that discrimination is a disease, its that people who need a convenient scapegoat for their actions and mistakes will use their authority to blame minority groups. This will always be possible. Who are you virtue signaling towards? khwarezm posted:
If it helps you feel better, polls show two positives that I feel may alter your opinion towards impoverished whites: 1. Poor white democrats in midwestern states didn't jump ship to Republicans, they just didn't vote at all. You may complain about the fragility of their support, but I'd argue that it speaks to the harrowing effect of living in decaying midwestern towns and hearing statquo messages like "America is Already Great". And puts to bed idea that they will suddenly jump to racists at a whim. 2. Gary Johnson peeled an incredibly number of votes from Trump, 4 million. That is to say, without racism and scandals Trump would have likely trounced Hillaty in the PV and yet further in the EV. Racism hurt his turnout. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Dec 4, 2016 |
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Dec 4, 2016 19:52
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Neurolimal posted:Who are you virtue signaling towards?  You know as much as you've been kvetching at eff to "GB24CHAN!!1!1" you sure have adopted some alt right terminology! Hmm let's see, unironically uses the phrase virtue signal, and gives whites a pass, while telling poor minorities to gently caress off because rust belt whites feel fragile, have you perhaps considered that you might want to go back to your alt-right hate-hole?
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Dec 4, 2016 20:02
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Identity politics are the political means by which rich, upper-middle class minorities and women masquerade as being 'progressive', obscure fundamental class divisions in society and their own class allegiance towards the bourgeoisie, and also extract greater privileges from the latter.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:06
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Like I said, not representative, though I kinda wonder if a portion of the whole "Demographics are destiny" crowd might not harbor similar feelings. quote:The Democratic party seems/seemed to put a lot of emphasis on identity politics, with an emphasis on politics. Less "Let's help people", more "We're so gonna win this election you guys, just look at the number of Hispanics!" To a point, but then it reminds of the way Black people used to be a major part of the Republican camp, which spent a lot of time coasting off its efforts during the Civil War and Reconstruction period. The problem was that they didn't really do anything to actually meet the current needs of that constituency and banked on being the only game in town for African American's considering how racist the Democratic party was. That complacency helped result in a change around the time of the New Deal. Now I'm not saying I expect racial minorities to vote Republican next election, I'm trying to say that Democrats have been complacent with lots of the groups that make up their coalition ATM, and that I think that's at odds with the idea that they've bought all into Idpol since that would mean actually doing stuff to advance the needs of those communities rather than just lazily pointing at the other guys ranting about Muslims and Immigrants and saying 'Yeah we probably haven't really achieved much lately but he's the only alternative'.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:11
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Upper-middle-class people aren't bourgeois. Don't use words you don't understand.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:12
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stone cold posted:
So, after hilariously misinterpreting my post, you're now going to accuse me of being a hidden conservative for using a word? How have I been telling effectronica to "GB24CHAN!!!"?
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Dec 4, 2016 20:15
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Brainiac Five posted:Upper-middle-class people aren't bourgeois. Don't use words you don't understand. They are if we're just talking about dictionary definitions here. If you're using another one you might want to point that out.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:15
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Neurolimal posted:So, after hilariously misinterpreting my post, you're now going to accuse me of being a hidden conservative for using a word? "Virtue Signalling" is a right-wing concept, moron.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:16
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Paradoxish posted:They are if we're just talking about dictionary definitions here. If you're using another one you might want to point that out. They're not, because their control of capital is extremely limited. They're a mix of proles and petit bourgeoisie.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:17
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I know there is no single answer for this question, but why are Dems so loving bad at winning and getting things done? A) They are terrible at getting their opinions across and their policies to stick? B) The party elites don't actually care about economic/social justice so nothing ever happens? C) Liberals don't actually care about addressing underlying issues of class and race? D) External forces: Gerrymandering, "fake" news, racism? E) Neoliberalism?
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Dec 4, 2016 20:17
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Brainiac Five posted:"Virtue Signalling" is a right-wing concept, moron. It's a concept. One that I having interacted, helped, and supported various modern movements put some validity in. I do believe that there are people who go out of their way to misinterpret statements and actions to declare themselves virtuous. That doesn't mean "don't support good things", it means "dont use every post of yours in a thread to feign outrage at invisible sexist racists" like stone cold has done. I think I'm entirely justified in using it when someone intentionally misreads a post to mean the exact opposite just so they can feign shock and outrage.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:20
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Brainiac Five posted:They're not, because their control of capital is extremely limited. They're a mix of proles and petit bourgeoisie. I understand how the term is used in Marxism, but "bourgeois" is very commonly used (uh, at least in so far as it's used at all) in the US to refer to the middle and upper-middle class. I'm honestly not trying to veer off into some pedantic debate about Marxist terminology here, this just feels an awful lot like making GBS threads on someone for using the US-centric definition of "liberal" as a leftist.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:21
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Frijolero posted:I know there is no single answer for this question, but why are Dems so loving bad at winning and getting things done? The party of "no ideas" means that they don't actually do anything, while the party of "bad ideas" does things that are completely stupid and awful. That means one is technically more active and engaged than the other.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:22
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Neurolimal posted:It's a concept. One that I having interacted, helped, and supported various modern movements put some validity in. I do believe that there are people who go out of their way to misinterpret statements and actions to declare themselves virtuous. That doesn't mean "don't support good things", it means "dont use every post of yours in a thread to feign outrage at invisible sexist racists" like stone cold has done. See, why this is a right-wing concept is because it's about insisting that all left-wing displays of emotion are phony and calculated. In any case, you should stop feigning stupidity. Paradoxish posted:I understand how the term is used in Marxism, but "bourgeois" is very commonly used (uh, at least in so far as it's used at all) in the US to refer to the middle and upper-middle class. I'm honestly not trying to veer off into some pedantic debate about Marxist terminology here, this just feels an awful lot like making GBS threads on someone for using the US-centric definition of "liberal." The term when used in that fashion exists solely to split the working class.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:23
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Frijolero posted:I know there is no single answer for this question, but why are Dems so loving bad at winning and getting things done? Their whole rhetorical style is to run up the score in a political system where no one actually gives a poo poo about debate club.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:23
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"bourgeois" is also understood as a set of social/cultural values, and in that sense many middle class are bourgeois even though they own no capital at all
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Dec 4, 2016 20:25
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Brainiac Five posted:See, why this is a right-wing concept is because it's about insisting that all left-wing displays of emotion are phony and calculated. In any case, you should stop feigning stupidity. Actually, its bad to confirm alt-right suspicions of tribal mentality by rabidly defending any and all expressions of outrage no matter how unjustified. If we become terrified of self-reflection and using appropriate words then the Alt-Right have already won. The AR are capable of saying LGBT without hissing and dissolving into flames, are we weaker than the AR?
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Dec 4, 2016 20:27
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Neurolimal posted:Actually, its bad to confirm alt-right suspicions of tribal mentality by rabidly defending any and all expressions of outrage no matter how unjustified. If we become terrified of self-reflection and using appropriate words then the Alt-Right have already won. The AR are capable of saying LGBT without hissing and dissolving into flames, are we weaker than the AR? Oh no, the Nazis might think badly of us. How terrible, they'll look down on us as we crack their skulls like an egg with a baseball bat. How will we ever live without their good regard. Bash the loving fash you idiot liberal.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:29
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Brainiac Five posted:Oh no, the Nazis might think badly of us. How terrible, they'll look down on us as we crack their skulls like an egg with a baseball bat. How will we ever live without their good regard. Bash the loving fash you idiot liberal. Where did I say anything about what they would think about us? Do you think there's nobody outside us and them that might find you hollering at anyone who dares question bizarre unjustified bouts of outrage terrible? This only lends credence to the concept; you took a post that only referenced the alt-right and used it to show how much of a badass nazi-basher you are instead of addressing the post. It's not even a concept that can only be applied to situations like this; theres plenty of bizarre and sad instances where someone would troll a thread, then go to another forum and point to their post to show how hard a troll they were. It was equally strange there as it is now.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:34
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Neurolimal posted:Where did I say anything about what they would think about us? Do you think there's nobody outside us and them that might find you hollering at anyone who dares question bizarre unjustified bouts of outrage terrible? The alt-right are Nazis, dumbass. Your respectability politics won't keep you out of the loving gas chambers, no matter how much of a quisling you are.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:37
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Neurolimal posted:Actually, its bad to confirm alt-right suspicions of tribal mentality by rabidly defending any and all expressions of outrage no matter how unjustified. If we become terrified of self-reflection and using appropriate words then the Alt-Right have already won. The AR are capable of saying LGBT without hissing and dissolving into flames, are we weaker than the AR? I too agree that pointing out bigotry is a worthless exercise and all minorities should lick the boots of their rich white cishet masters! Yep. Also, y'all certainly haven't exhibited a tribal mentality when it comes to defending bigoted whites at all, nope! 
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Dec 4, 2016 20:38
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Freddie deBoer writes about virtue signaling all the time and he's a leftist, albeit a controversial one. It's definitely a pejorative that can be overused, but I don't know how anyone can spend any time on Facebook and not think some of their woke friends are bending over backwards to let everyone know how good they are because they care deeply and know it isn't their place to speak right now but they're there if oppressed people want them to listen, man.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:38
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Brainiac Five posted:The alt-right are Nazis, dumbass. Your respectability politics won't keep you out of the loving gas chambers, no matter how much of a quisling you are. Yes, and I only used the alt-right to point out that you're acting in a way that, to outsiders, seems to confirm what they say about us. You're response to this was "I BRUTALLY SEVER THE NERVES OF THE NAZIS EYE WITH MY SCALPEL AS I FORCE HIS GAZE TO MY PROTEST SIGN. BASH THE FASH WILL BE THE LAST THING HE WILL EVER READ"
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Dec 4, 2016 20:39
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Sinteres posted:Freddie deBoer writes about virtue signaling all the time and he's a leftist, albeit a controversial one. It's definitely a pejorative that can be overused, but I don't know how anyone can spend any time on Facebook and not think some of their woke friends are bending over backwards to let everyone know how good they are because they care deeply and know it isn't their place to speak right now but they're there if oppressed people want them to listen, man. You don't know that because you're apparently incapable of sincere emotion, so you generalize your damage onto everyone around you. Neurolimal posted:Yes, and I only used the alt-right to point out that you're acting in a way that, to outsiders, seems to confirm what they say about us. You're response to this was "I BRUTALLY SEVER THE NERVES OF THE NAZIS EYE WITH MY SCALPEL AS I FORCE HIS GAZE TO MY PROTEST SIGN. BASH THE FASH WILL BE THE LAST THING HE WILL EVER READ" Your respectability politics will not keep you out of the gas chambers. Didn't work in the 1930s and 40s and it won't work now.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:39
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Brainiac Five posted:You don't know that because you're apparently incapable of sincere emotion, so you generalize your damage onto everyone around you. 
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Dec 4, 2016 20:41
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stone cold posted:I too agree that pointing out bigotry is a worthless exercise and all minorities should lick the boots of their rich white cishet masters! Yep. It's worthless when you aren't pointing out bigotry, just blatantly misreading posts so you can accuse anyone you disagree with of bigotry. You aren't combatting bigotry, just telling everyone how much you, stone cold, hate bigotry. Well we're all here, you've made it clear you hate bigots. Good job? Do you have anything else to contribute to the thread with?
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Dec 4, 2016 20:41
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Brainiac Five posted:Dickless Brainiac Five posted:Did your parents drop you on the head when you were very small? Brainiac Five posted:Interesting that you put the "Q" before the "T", Neurolimited. Brainiac Five posted:Oh man, so you just see disabilities as insults. I think it was Yeezus who said "you should take the log out of your own eye, and shut the gently caress up effectronica" Virtue signalling is a real thing, but accusing people of not really caring about issues they claim to care about without having concrete evidence that you are correct about them is a supremely lovely thing to do.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:42
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Nevvy Z posted:I think it was Yeezus who said "you should take the log out of your own eye, and shut the gently caress up effectronica" In Eff's defense, he's using a meh nickname Fishmech likes to use @ me actually that might be worse, sorry
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Dec 4, 2016 20:44
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The interesting thing here is that the exact line of argument Neurolimited uses is one that applies equally well to ACT UP's activism, pride parades, etc. His ideal of gayness is acting straight.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:48
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Neurolimal posted:It's worthless when you aren't pointing out bigotry, just blatantly misreading posts so you can accuse anyone you disagree with of bigotry. You aren't combatting bigotry, just telling everyone how much you, stone cold, hate bigotry. I'm glad that the premise that "idpol is only good when we think about "Midwest white feefees," isn't worth disagreeing with in your view, keep being you, you stormfronter! Maybe I'm trying to get all this bigotry out because a. I don't like being hated for my gender, creed, race, sexuality, whether of not I'm an immigrant, but no I must just being try to score woke points. Can't be because I'm sick enough of seeing hate in my own life, must be because I'm some champagne booj dumbass! If you save up enough dead comedy forums woke points, do you get a toaster or an MP3 player? Also @nevvy z, there literally isn't an ironicat big enough!
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Dec 4, 2016 20:49
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Brainiac Five posted:The interesting thing here is that the exact line of argument Neurolimited uses is one that applies equally well to ACT UP's activism, pride parades, etc. His ideal of gayness is acting straight. ...does ACT UP often accidentally read "we shouldn't give up on fighting for equality" as "we should totally give up on fighting for equality" and start screaming insults? Because I'd like them to cut that out too if so.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:50
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stone cold posted:I'm glad that the premise that "idpol is only good when we think about "Midwest white feefees," isn't worth disagreeing with in your view, keep being you, you stormfronter! See, if you didnt want people accusing you of this, the smart thing to do would have been "sorry, I skimmed posts and lost track of the argument" and not "this guy who hasn't actually denigrated social issues is trying to make me care about poor people! HISSSSSSS". If you project hate onto allies, then you will never escape hatred in your life.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:52
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Neurolimal posted:...does ACT UP often accidentally read "we shouldn't give up on fighting for equality" as "we should totally give up on fighting for equality" and start screaming insults? Neurolimal posted:Actually, its bad to confirm alt-right suspicions of tribal mentality by rabidly defending any and all expressions of outrage no matter how unjustified. If we become terrified of self-reflection and using appropriate words then the Alt-Right have already won. The AR are capable of saying LGBT without hissing and dissolving into flames, are we weaker than the AR? Outrage is how the powerful majority suppressing genuine minority concerns and anger, see editorial cartoons and white opinions about MLK Jr. at the time. But you're right, wouldn't want to confirm altright suspicions about caring about minorities, so you just keep loving that chicken! E: if your idea of being a good ally is to tell minorities that their fears and concerns are stupid and they just need to tough it out and we should feel worse for "economically anxious whites" then you can get the hell out stone cold fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Dec 4, 2016 |
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Dec 4, 2016 20:53
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Neurolimal posted:...does ACT UP often accidentally read "we shouldn't give up on fighting for equality" as "we should totally give up on fighting for equality" and start screaming insults? I never said what you're attributing to me. It is truly regrettable that justice is so absent in this world, that you might lie so fervently and receive not one bit of consequences for your misdeeds.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:55
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Brainiac Five posted:The interesting thing here is that the exact line of argument Neurolimited uses is one that applies equally well to ACT UP's activism, pride parades, etc. His ideal of gayness is acting straight. Brainiac Five posted:Interesting that you put the "Q" before the "T", Neurolimited. Brainiac Five posted:I find it interesting that the focus is on the banks, and not, say, the bourgeoisie as a whole. Are you consciously invoking antisemitic suspicions or is this just a consequence of most "leftists" actually being humdrum liberals? Brainiac Five posted:I will say it's interesting how apparently Nazis just looooooved the gays in your mind. It's really loving telling. Brainiac Five posted:What is interesting is that your argument is an identitarian one- that LGBT people, or even specific subgroups of LGBT people, are not a class, but an identity. Edith Windsor is a fake lesbian because she was relatively well-off, and there are no issues that unite all LGBT people, or all L people, all B people, all G people, all T people. Gayness, transness, these are things you can just shed. But, in the actual lived reality of even closeted, extremely-able-to-pass-for-straight or -cis people, this is not the case, except possibly for the upper reaches of the bourgeoisie. I suspect not even for them, they just get a looser leash. Brainiac Five posted:Interesting how "the new Jim Crow" became "re-enslavement." Brainiac Five posted:It is extremely interesting that he decided to make the assumption I was a trans woman, I would think, but you are a motherfucker congenitally. ACTUALLY, I think you'll find that a dozen pages of nothing but innuendo and posturing in lieu of any actual point or really even thought is incredibly boring!
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Dec 4, 2016 20:56
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Nevvy Z posted:Virtue signalling is a real thing, but accusing people of not really caring about issues they claim to care about without having concrete evidence that you are correct about them is a supremely lovely thing to do. I think it usually is rooted in genuine concern, but becomes exaggerated over time as people chase likes in a social media environment increasingly saturated with like-minded opinions, in which the shrillest voices will stand out because of their novelty.
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Dec 4, 2016 20:57
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Brainiac Five posted:I never said what you're attributing to me. It is truly regrettable that justice is so absent in this world, that you might lie so fervently and receive not one bit of consequences for your misdeeds. Stone cold did this, to which you then jumped to their defense because you saw the word 'virtue signaling' in an environment appropriate for its use. Now you're trying to back out while also accusing me of lying, which is....something. stone cold posted:Outrage is how the powerful majority suppressing genuine minority concerns and anger, see editorial cartoons and white opinions about MLK Jr. at the time. But you're right, wouldn't want to confirm altright suspicions about caring about minorities, so you just keep loving that chicken! Outrage is good. Outrage at your own allies because you disagreed with something minor and are now willingly misinterpreting posts is not good. You might notice how that second post does not condemn Outrage, but "rabidly defending any and all outrage no matter how unjustifiable".
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Dec 4, 2016 20:58
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Woozy posted:ACTUALLY, I think you'll find that a dozen pages of nothing but innuendo and posturing in lieu of any actual point or really even thought is incredibly boring! I like how you ignore everyone else to zoom in on me. It's really telling. Well, why don't we make use of this platinum feature, work out an opportunity for you to try and murder the radical-individualist liberal that enrages you so that you leave the thread in a huff and then come zooming back in to make whiny little posts like these! Or are you too spineless to engage in revolutionary violence? Are you nothing more than a wheezy little reformist?
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Dec 4, 2016 20:59
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Brainiac Five posted:I like how you ignore everyone else to zoom in on me. It's really telling. Well, why don't we make use of this platinum feature, work out an opportunity for you to try and murder the radical-individualist liberal that enrages you so that you leave the thread in a huff and then come zooming back in to make whiny little posts like these! Or are you too spineless to engage in revolutionary violence? Are you nothing more than a wheezy little reformist? "It's not my job to educate you--I'm a psychoanalyst!"
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Dec 4, 2016 21:00
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Neurolimal posted:Stone cold did this, to which you then jumped to their defense because you saw the word 'virtue signaling' in an environment appropriate for its use. Now you're trying to back out while also accusing me of lying, which is....something. People who describe themselves as "allies" generally are pure shitbags. I actually don't see where anyone has claimed that we should "give up", since stone cold and I are arguing against your assertion that bigotry is eternal.
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Dec 4, 2016 21:01
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