DAPL: coward pipe defeats water protectors

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > DAPL: coward pipe defeats water protectors

Der Waffle Mous: Nov 27, 2009; In the grim future, there is only commerce.

I am intrigued by the response to "might makes right is bullshit" being the apparent assertion that right makes might therefore being right makes you a hypocrite.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:14

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 06:10

I AM GRANDO: Aug 20, 2006

Gobbeldygook posted:

Let's recall what you said to me earlier in the thread.

They won, therefore they were right. So might makes right when it suits you.

You have access to Wikipedia too! You know what's really interesting? How utterly worthless every single post you've made in this thread has been.

Drive by claim that no-one should listen to a particular poster.

Interesting, drives by to accuse me of being an "openly racist shitbag"

Another post just driving by to accuse me of being racist.

Interesting post that contributes nothing to the discussion.

Interesting post that contributes nothing and ascribes bad faith to your opponents.

Boy, everyone who is against you is a racist!

Everyone who doesn't agree with you is pro-genocide.

Could you please just gently caress off?

It wasn't might that caused pipeline construction to end. The protesters had none.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:15

Dead Reckoning: Sep 13, 2011

SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:

it probably means that they realized that they only had a very narrow opportunity where they had the upper hand before the white man decided to start loving them again

such as less than 10 years later

I'm not really following your logic here. So the Sioux were in a position dictate terms, but decided to ask for what the white man would want to give them, because they knew no matter what they did that the white man would declare war on them again? Aside from being totally ahistorical (seriously, provide any evidence whatsoever that this was the Sioux train of thought) it makes no sense whatsoever. If they knew they were going to fight again, they would want to seize as much territory as they could in the interim.

CommieGIR posted:

Just stop, man. Its over. You lost.

Just loving :lol:

at you of all people trying to shut down a discussion with "Score board!" after spending pages arguing that government decisions were totally irrelevant to whether something was good, justifiable, or worthy of discussion.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:18

Brainiac Five: Mar 28, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

Dead Reckoning posted:

I'm not really following your logic here. So the Sioux were in a position dictate terms, but decided to ask for what the white man would want to give them, because they knew no matter what they did that the white man would declare war on them again? Aside from being totally ahistorical (seriously, provide any evidence whatsoever that this was the Sioux train of thought) it makes no sense whatsoever. If they knew they were going to fight again, they would want to seize as much territory as they could in the interim.

Nice argument that the Sioux were all loving morons.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:19

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Dead Reckoning posted:

Just loving at you of all people trying to shut down a discussion with "Score board!" after spending pages arguing that government decisions were totally irrelevant to whether something was good, justifiable, or worthy of discussion.

You see, the point isn't debating the actual merits of the pipeline and the arguments against it and the broader significance of the protests, it's about flinging poo poo at the other guy until you get to smugly declare victory because you're already convinced of the righteousness of your cause.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:21

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Dead Reckoning posted:

Just loving at you of all people trying to shut down a discussion with "Score board!" after spending pages arguing that government decisions were totally irrelevant to whether something was good, justifiable, or worthy of discussion.

You spent the ENTIRE thread going "gently caress the Natives, I'm siding with a company that has a legacy for lovely actions and a government that has a legacy of giving the Natives the middle finger" and repeating "Might Makes Right" as loudly as possible.

You pretended the Treaties were some sort of final good faith agreement instead of a "Well, we'll let you have it this time, but we'll be back" method of slowly disintegrating the Natives which WAS their goal. You have this fantastic idea about how the US government is somehow always Morally correct no matter the historical evidence for how lovely the treaties were.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:22

Dead Reckoning: Sep 13, 2011

Nah, I've been pretty consistent in my position that the law governing this case is just and therefore should be obeyed, so I expect the company to comply with the Corps' decision*, since I'm not a massive hypocrite *cough*.

Neither you nor anyone else has managed to satisfactorily explain why the 1868 treaty was bad law, despite being cited by the tribe itself in court as their preferred statutory basis, other than it being inconvenient to your argument.

_{*presumably while they appeal it, which I expect would go well, since the Corps' decision making process doesn't allow them to deny permits for bad optics}

Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Dec 5, 2016

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:27

Raldikuk: Apr 7, 2006; I'm bad with money and I want that meatball!

So it seems that the ACoE denied the final permit because they want to see reroute alternatives. It seems to me that with construction so far along there won't be any meaningful reroutes and probably later next year this crossing will still be completed. Is that the case? Or does the rejection of this permit mean they will never be able to go forward at that site?

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:28

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Dead Reckoning posted:

Nah, I've been pretty consistent in my position that the law is just and therefore should be obeyed, so I expect the company to comply with the Corps' decision*, since I'm not a massive hypocrite *cough*.

_{*presumably while they appeal it, which I expect would go well, since the Corps' decision making process doesn't allow them to deny permits for bad optics}

And shockingly, the law is not always just and SHOULDN'T always be obeyed.

The law was to turn in any Jews in Nazi Germany, would you do it? Its the law, its therefore just and should be obeyed. And the Law should not be used as a battering ram for multi-billion dollar industries that are just trying to seize land to make a quick loving buck.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:29

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

So I wandered into this thread yesterday to simply ask how building a pipeline in empty land constituted genocide. Judging by my newfound red text, someone doesn't know what genocide means.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:30

Recoome: Nov 9, 2013; Matter of fact, I'm salty now.

Gobbeldygook posted:

Let's recall what you said to me earlier in the thread.

They won, therefore they were right. So might makes right when it suits you.

You have access to Wikipedia too! You know what's really interesting? How utterly worthless every single post you've made in this thread has been.

Drive by claim that no-one should listen to a particular poster.

Interesting, drives by to accuse me of being an "openly racist shitbag"

Another post just driving by to accuse me of being racist.

Interesting post that contributes nothing to the discussion.

Interesting post that contributes nothing and ascribes bad faith to your opponents.

Boy, everyone who is against you is a racist!

Everyone who doesn't agree with you is pro-genocide.

Could you please just gently caress off?

I-i'm not racist :qq:

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:30

Recoome: Nov 9, 2013; Matter of fact, I'm salty now.

Also a good win today, hopefully this can continue to be a win in the future and not just a temporary reprieve

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:32

Dead Reckoning: Sep 13, 2011

CommieGIR posted:

And shockingly, the law is not always just and SHOULDN'T always be obeyed.

The law was to turn in any Jews in Nazi Germany, would you do it? Its the law, its therefore just and should be obeyed. And the Law should not be used as a battering ram for multi-billion dollar industries that are just trying to seize land to make a quick loving buck.

Pretty obvious I was talking about the law governing this specific case. Calm down, Godwin.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:33

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Cugel the Clever posted:

So I wandered into this thread yesterday to simply ask how building a pipeline in empty land constituted genocide. Judging by my newfound red text, someone doesn't know what genocide means.

Yours red text doesn't say anything about Genocide.

It does however, recognize your inability to understand that land being empty does not suddenly mean its fair game...

...ironic since that is literally the justification the US Government gave for Settler programs.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:33

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Dead Reckoning posted:

Pretty obvious I was talking about the law governing this specific case. Calm down, Godwin.

No no, you were pretty clear. The law is just, because its the law. Maybe you shouldn't generalize.

We could also apply this to:
Jim Crow
Indian Resettlement Laws (Trail of Tears)
Japanese Internment
Etc.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:35

Buschmaki: Dec 26, 2012; ‿︵‿︵‿︵‿Lean Addict︵‿︵‿︵‿

Dead Reckoning posted:

Pretty obvious I was talking about the law governing this specific case. Calm down, Godwin.

You should use "this law" instead if "the law" if you want to make it obvious.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:35

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

CommieGIR posted:

And shockingly, the law is not always just and SHOULDN'T always be obeyed.

The law was to turn in any Jews in Nazi Germany, would you do it? Its the law, its therefore just and should be obeyed. And the Law should not be used as a battering ram for multi-billion dollar industries that are just trying to seize land to make a quick loving buck.

Please point out where the law is unjust in the case of the DAPL.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:37

wateroverfire: Jul 3, 2010

Seems like this will just push the issue back to early February, when the incoming administration will push the ACoE the other way and the crossing will be approved.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:38

Dead Reckoning: Sep 13, 2011

Cugel the Clever posted:

So I wandered into this thread yesterday to simply ask how building a pipeline in empty land constituted genocide. Judging by my newfound red text, someone doesn't know what genocide means.

What your red text, and Laminar's, and some others, really mean is that someone with a lot of disposable income is still butthurt about this thread and thinks this is somehow going to prove their point $10 at a time.

CommieGIR posted:

No no, you were pretty clear. The law is just, because its the law. Maybe you shouldn't generalize.

Yeah, if you could go ahead and quote the post where I said that the law is just because it is the law, that'd be great.

Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Dec 5, 2016

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:40

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Dead Reckoning posted:

Yeah, if you could go ahead and quote the post where I said that the law is just because it is the law, that'd be great.

Nearly every post in the thread? Might Makes Right is pretty much your calling card.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:40

Brainiac Five: Mar 28, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

blowfish posted:

Please point out where the law is unjust in the case of the DAPL.

Probably the part where it allows paramilitary gangs to be deployed to maim and kill peaceful protesters, gives them license to lie freely, etc.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:40

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

CommieGIR posted:

Nearly every post in the thread? Might Makes Right is pretty much your calling card.

Nearly every post in the thread in fact doesn't contain that argument. The specific laws about how and where to route the pipeline are just in DR's and my opinion, so please point out why you think they aren't.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:43

Dead Reckoning: Sep 13, 2011

CommieGIR posted:

Nearly every post in the thread? Might Makes Right is pretty much your calling card.

So you're telling me you can't actually provide a specific example of me saying the thing you are accusing me of saying?

Buschmaki posted:

You should use "this law" instead if "the law" if you want to make it obvious.

There, I fixed it. Hopefully this will clear up any lingering misunderstanding.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:45

Gobbeldygook: May 13, 2009; Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

Put this racist on ignore immediately!

Raldikuk posted:

So it seems that the ACoE denied the final permit because they want to see reroute alternatives. It seems to me that with construction so far along there won't be any meaningful reroutes and probably later next year this crossing will still be completed. Is that the case? Or does the rejection of this permit mean they will never be able to go forward at that site?

Here's the army's statement. They left themselves a little wiggle room.

quote:

"Although we have had continuing discussion and exchanges of new information with the Standing Rock Sioux and Dakota Access, it's clear that there's more work to do," Darcy said. "The best way to complete that work responsibly and expeditiously is to explore alternate routes for the pipeline crossing."
Darcy said that the consideration of alternative routes would be best accomplished through an Environmental Impact Statement with full public input and analysis.

Any environmental impact statement would have to explain how building a whole new pipeline would have less of an impact than completing the almost complete one. So after months of discussion and consideration of alternative routes they could decide the best route is still under Lake Oahe.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:47

silence_kit: Jul 14, 2011; by the sex ghost

Cugel the Clever posted:

So I wandered into this thread yesterday to simply ask how building a pipeline in empty land constituted genocide. Judging by my newfound red text, someone doesn't know what genocide means.

You would think that in a thread with a bunch of posters who are ostensibly passionate about the plight of Native Americans, people wouldn't use the term genocide lightly and hyperbolically apply it to anything they didn't like. I think it kind of cheapens the actual genocide experienced by the natives at the hands of the white settlers, but here we are.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:49

Recoome: Nov 9, 2013; Matter of fact, I'm salty now.

Jesus loving christ can the stupid law enforcement cheerleaders take it to GiP?

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:51

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

silence_kit posted:

You would think that in a thread with a bunch of posters who are ostensibly passionate about the plight of Native Americans, people wouldn't use the term genocide lightly and hyperbolically apply it to anything they didn't like. I think it kind of cheapens the actual genocide experienced by the natives at the hands of the white settlers, but here we are.

The idea is that by accusing the Bad Guys^TM of the most vile Bad Guy thing you can possibly think of regardless of whether it's true or not, you suppress Bad Guys and therefore improve the world more quickly and efficiently.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:52

Brainiac Five: Mar 28, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

I really enjoy the people desperate for Big Daddy Trump to come in and save their precious pipeline.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:52

suck my woke dick: Oct 10, 2012; I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

Recoome posted:

Jesus loving christ can the stupid law enforcement cheerleaders take it to GiP?

Law enforcement around the DAPL protests has been terrible, which isn't very surprising given US law enforcement. However, this doesn't make the protestors right, it means law enforcement is also doing things wrong.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 00:55

ComradeCosmobot: Dec 4, 2004; USPOL July

Brainiac Five posted:

I really enjoy the people desperate for Big Daddy Trump to come in and save their precious pipeline.

He will, too. He's indirectly invested in the project.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 01:01

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

ComradeCosmobot posted:

He will, too. He's indirectly invested in the project.

Don't worry, it'll be law and it'll be just.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 01:06

SSJ_naruto_2003: Oct 12, 2012

Personally, looking st all the historical evidence of the government and US citizens being loving awful to the natives and seeing how oppressed and poverty stricken they are today, I have come to a judgement call. Instead of delaying my giant oil pipeline that will help make me even more rich, I figured we could go ahead and sic attack dogs and water cannons on the protestors. Remember that if you give even one inkling of leniency where the law is concerned, the world is anarchy.

Like even if they are protesting unlawfully, which is true... I'd think it's at least morally permissible and we should chill out. The oils not gonna disappear if the pipeline waits a little while.

I'm not sure how this is a loving contentious opinion but here we are in D&D

# ? Dec 5, 2016 01:10

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

CommieGIR posted:

No no, you were pretty clear. The law is just, because its the law. Maybe you shouldn't generalize.

We could also apply this to:
Jim Crow
Indian Resettlement Laws (Trail of Tears)
Japanese Internment
Etc.

This is a complete and utter lie, a lie you've repeated for the nth time, because you are completely unwilling and unable to make an arguement for what is actually unjust.

You tried to pull some bullshit about the 1868 treaty being at the barrel of a gun the first time I called you on this but when this was pointed out to be a complete bullshit ahistorcal arguement you just went back to lying about his argument being "legal=just"

No one has made this arguement, no matter how many times you and other posters lie about it being the argument so you can avoid making one yourself.

edit: 1868 not 1968

Jarmak fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Dec 5, 2016

# ? Dec 5, 2016 01:13

Brainiac Five: Mar 28, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

Jarmak posted:

This is a complete and utter lie, a lie you've repeated for the nth time, because you are completely unwilling and unable to make an arguement for what is actually unjust.

You tried to pull some bullshit about the 1968 treaty being at the barrel of a gun the first time I called you on this but when this was pointed out to be a complete bullshit ahistorcal arguement you just went back to lying about his argument being "legal=just"

No one has made this arguement, no matter how many times you and other posters lie about it being the argument so you can avoid making one yourself.

"1968 treaty" is a weird mistake to make twice.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 01:20

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Jarmak posted:

This is a complete and utter lie, a lie you've repeated for the nth time, because you are completely unwilling and unable to make an arguement for what is actually unjust.

You tried to pull some bullshit about the 1968 treaty being at the barrel of a gun the first time I called you on this but when this was pointed out to be a complete bullshit ahistorcal arguement you just went back to lying about his argument being "legal=just"

No one has made this arguement, no matter how many times you and other posters lie about it being the argument so you can avoid making one yourself.

Hmmm, Hmmm.

Nope. The Treaties were still a series of actions to slowly errode the Native's rights leading up to making their religion and culture illegal and opening their land to settlers.
Which ultimately resulted in stuff like this:

quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_assimilation_of_Native_Americans#Code_of_Indian_Offenses

In 1882, Interior Secretary Henry M. Teller called attention to the �great hindrance� of Indian customs to the progress of assimilation. The resultant �Code of Indian Offenses� in 1883 outlined the procedure for suppressing �evil practices.�
A Court of Indian Offenses, consisting of three Indians appointed by the Indian Agent, was to be established at each Indian agency. The Court would serve as judges to punish offenders. Outlawed behavior included participation in traditional dances and feasts, polygamy, reciprocal gift giving and funeral practices, and intoxication or sale of liquor. Also prohibited were �medicine men� who �use any of the arts of the conjurer to prevent the Indians from abandoning their heathenish rites and customs.� The penalties prescribed for violations ranged from 10 to 90 days imprisonment and loss of government-provided rations for up to 30 days.[17]
The Five Civilized Tribes were exempt from the Code which remained in effect until 1933.[18]
In implementation on reservations by Indian judges, the Court of Indian Offenses became mostly an institution to punish minor crimes. The 1890 report of the Secretary of the Interior lists the activities of the Court on several reservations and apparently no Indian was prosecuted for dances or "heathenish ceremonies."[19] Significantly, 1890 was the year of the Ghost Dance, ending with the Wounded Knee Massacre.

CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Dec 5, 2016

# ? Dec 5, 2016 01:25

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Posted in the wrong thread. Am dumb.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 01:31

Dead Reckoning: Sep 13, 2011

CommieGIR posted:

Hmmm, Hmmm.

Nope. The Treaties were still a series of actions to slowly errode the Native's rights leading up to making their religion and culture illegal and opening their land to settlers.
Which ultimately resulted in this:

Nothing in your post demonstrates or indicates that the 1868 treaty was signed by the natives under duress, or that any of the parties to it believed that it was a stepping stone to eradication of the natives or reduction of their land holdings. It doesn't support your assertion.

Also, still waiting for you to provide an example of me saying that "the law is just because it is the law" in this thread.

# ? Dec 5, 2016 01:35

linoleum floors: Mar 25, 2012; Please. Let me tell you all about how you're all idiots. I am of superior intellect here. Go suck some dicks. You have all fucking stupid opinions. This is my fucking opinion.

still the same 2-3 bad posters crapping up the thread with their dumb bullshit

# ? Dec 5, 2016 01:35

linoleum floors: Mar 25, 2012; Please. Let me tell you all about how you're all idiots. I am of superior intellect here. Go suck some dicks. You have all fucking stupid opinions. This is my fucking opinion.

Dead Reckoning posted:

Nothing in your post demonstrates or indicates that the 1868 treaty was signed by the natives under duress, or that any of the parties to it believed that it was a stepping stone to eradication of the natives or reduction of their land holdings. It doesn't support your assertion.

Also, still waiting for you to provide an example of me saying that "the law is just because it is the law" in this thread.

gently caress you

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Dec 5, 2016 01:35

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 06:10

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

CommieGIR posted:

Hmmm, Hmmm.

Nope. The Treaties were still a series of actions to slowly errode the Native's rights leading up to making their religion and culture illegal and opening their land to settlers.
Which ultimately resulted in stuff like this:

What the gently caress does that have to do with the 1868 treaty?

# ? Dec 5, 2016 01:37

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