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Dec 4, 2016 21:24
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That's a pretty normal way to do that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMQBieZnjlc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeU7MDPBDf8
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Dec 4, 2016 21:27
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We had a non-drill fire alarm at my plant a few days ago that turned out to be someone crashing a forklift into an alarm box. I and the plant manager were the only people who left the building out of 300+ on shift.
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Dec 4, 2016 21:41
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boner confessor posted:also how the real real killer isn't the fire or smoke necessarily, it's inadequate ability to escape. two of the deadliest fires in the united states - the iroquois theater fire (600ish dead) and the cocoanut grove fire (500ish dead) were because once the fire happened, people panicked and couldn't find their way out. Both the Iroquois fire and the Cocoanut Grove fire caused major revisions in the fire codes because the exits didn't work. The Iroquois Theater had multiple levels of the auditorium funneling into a single staircase; when that was blocked by fire, there was no way to leave. The architect didn't like the way that fire exits disrupted the line of the architecture, so they didn't have lighted signs. The fire-escape exits were fastened by bascule locks (I haven't been able to find a good picture), a lock then common in Europe but nearly unknown in the U.S., that had to be simultaneously pressed down and rotated. Similarly, the Cocoanut Grove's only exit was a rotating door, which jammed. I recently read a book on the Iroquois fire, so it's fresh in my mind. It's easy to ascribe disaster deaths to "panic" when what actually happened was that the egress wasn't designed for many people to leave quickly. You'll notice that people don't die of "panic" in airplane evacuations, because the exit chutes are designed to get people out fast, and the attendants are trained on how to get people out fast. In the Cocoanut Grove, the Iroquois, and the Collinwood School fires, the design wasn't there and the training wasn't there. There's been recent research on crowd crush deaths, and I highly recommend the New Yorker article I linked to. The problem isn't "panic"; the problem is the physics of how humans interact in a closed space. e: belated edit to fix horrible markup Arsenic Lupin fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Dec 5, 2016 |
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Dec 4, 2016 22:01
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As I understand it, in an emergency evacuation people will panic. Therefore, the building must be designed such that panicking is an effective way of leaving the building.
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Dec 4, 2016 22:48
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The Lone Badger posted:As I understand it, in an emergency evacuation people will panic. Therefore, the building must be designed such that panicking is an effective way of leaving the building. There was a pretty famous test back in the 70?s where they ran the evacuation test for an airplane using volunteers and they all safely escaped in the required time. Then they ran the test again, only this time, the first 25 out would get a cash bonus. It failed miserably as they all got logjammed due to the pseudo-panic My google-fu is failing me on which documentary on Youtube I saw this on. Found it: S9 "Panic on the Runway" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airtours_Flight_28M spog fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Dec 4, 2016 |
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Dec 4, 2016 23:16
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spog posted:There was a pretty famous test back in the 70?s where they ran the evacuation test for an airplane using volunteers and they all safely escaped in the required time. Here's the report: http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/fsr-0089.pdf edit: oops wrong link. Here's the original: https://www.faa.gov/data_research/research/med_humanfacs/oamtechreports/1970s/media/AM70-16.pdf VectorSigma fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Dec 4, 2016 |
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Dec 4, 2016 23:19
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Cool, thanks. The programme was an interesting watch, but I like to see the actual test results for these things.
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Dec 5, 2016 00:06
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On the topic of fires spreading quickly, my PhD research is concerned with developing treatment programs for arsonists and, among those psychological factors found to predispose people to setting fires, we've found an overestimation of a person's ability to control fire and an underestimation of the destructive capacity of a fire to be a predictor of firesetting recidivism. The treatment plan we're authoring and testing has sessions on showing arsonists videos of fire spreading like the ones posted in this thread, demonstrating that a fire can come to engulf an entire house in minutes. Among the focus groups we've run for people who have participated in the treatment program, these videos are consistently rated as among the most memorable parts of the program. They surprised even me and this is an area I work in - I find reading stories about this recent fire to be uniquely terrifying because I can imagine exactly how quickly and thoroughly the fire would have gotten out of control. Part of our research is showing that people who have a lot of experience with fire (for example, because they live in a rural area where trash burning or bonfires are more common) tend to have better predictive ability for how quickly a fire can get out of control. This may sound really obvious but we've also found that people who have actual experience with fire tend to put their confidence about their knowledge of fire at about the same level as people who little to no actual experience with fire.
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Dec 5, 2016 03:28
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That is some fascinating research, and it sounds like it could make the world a little better. While we're on the subject, the Macdonald triad is utter bullshit, right?
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Dec 5, 2016 03:36
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spog posted:Cool, thanks. 
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Dec 5, 2016 03:41
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I think those people that deal with fire more regularly probably recognize that there's pretty much always an element of unpredictability with fire too, no matter how controlled the variables might be (thinking mostly of brush fires, but still). Just can't trust it. Do you have any focus on brush fires and the like? It seems like it could be useful as I've seen/heard so many "controlled burns" get out of hand in a hell of a hurry, although I'm not sure if that's applicable so much on the arson side.
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Dec 5, 2016 03:42
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Time works the same way.
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Dec 5, 2016 03:45
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Arsenic Lupin posted:That is some fascinating research, and it sounds like it could make the world a little better. While we're on the subject, the Macdonald triad is utter bullshit, right? AFAIK the Macdonald triad is just 4 traits commonly found in killers, not a predictor or tool for diagnosis,
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Dec 5, 2016 03:46
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I do fire safety stuff for a living and it just makes me enraged when building owners don't take it seriously. So many lovely clubs and restaurants and art spaces that will just pile flammable junk over all the alternate exits too they get all bent out of shape when we tell them not to. To them it's just mindless bureaucratic rules hurting their business/space/artistic vision. Mass fire deaths only happen in the 3rd world, why do we need to follow any of this fire safety stuff anymore??? But my special art showing is only this weekend why can't I have double my occupancy load and block off the 2nd stairwell to make sure no one's sneaking drinks in?! We're drowning in regulations!!!
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Dec 5, 2016 03:48
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What kind of charges will the owners of those places (like the current fire) receive in court? (assuming they made it out) They should really be looking at Murder One.
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Dec 5, 2016 03:49
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Johnny Aztec posted:What kind of charges will the owners of those places (like the current fire) receive in court? (assuming they made it out) A $20 fine, if history is any indication.
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Dec 5, 2016 03:55
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:I think those people that deal with fire more regularly probably recognize that there's pretty much always an element of unpredictability with fire too, no matter how controlled the variables might be (thinking mostly of brush fires, but still). Just can't trust it. Controlled burns getting out is a combination of fire being unpredictable and weather being unpredictable. I was helping with a burn where the breeze went from the forecast steady 5mph in one direction to gusting 15 mph in the other for 30 seconds at the worst possible moment. That was enough to take the fire from a slowly advancing line 3 feet tall to crowning out in a wall of flames burning from the ground to 40ft over the top of the mature trees. A few hundred square feet of young trees outside the fire lines burned due to burning chunks of tree canopy drifting down. Had the breeze done that twenty minutes earlier it would have been just fine as the fire would have been in a less fuel rich area and any embers would have fallen within the fire breaks, and had the wind kept doing that and had we not kept a bulldozer idling it could have easily been a few hundred acres going up.
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Dec 5, 2016 04:01
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Arsenic Lupin posted:That is some fascinating research, and it sounds like it could make the world a little better. While we're on the subject, the Macdonald triad is utter bullshit, right? The triad was authored to predict recidivistic murder and is generally not supported by the research. The strongest predictors of repeat murder are terribly boring; generally childhood histories of aggression and violence, adult histories of domestic assault, generally pasts characterised by violence. Arson is interesting with respect to forensic psychological research because it comprises an aggressive act meaning you'd expect it to share predictors with other violent crime yet the actual violence is impersonal. We're finding more and more that arson offenders are characterised by high levels of trait aggression but without the social assertiveness or communication ability to resolve their aggression directly so they resort to fire, some as a symbolic act (only something so destructive is consummate to how aggrieved I feel) or because they feel so socially/communicatively disempowered that fire is literally the only way they can think of to sublimate their aggression. quote:Do you have any focus on brush fires and the like? Bush fires are a massive problem in Australia; the rate of bush fires is approximately that of Canada or the US but Australia's climate make them disproportionately bad. My research actually came out of a grant that followed a massive investment by Australia following the Victorian bushfire disaster of 2012 in which 200 people lost their lives. It's a hard thing to research, though, because it has the lowest clearance rate of all types of arson, it's hard to detect in the first place and harder to prosecute. Consequently, while I study bushfire arson, all my research has to carry a proviso that we can only investigate those offenders who were caught so our results may not be generalisable to all bushfire arsonists. I'm actually conducting a study now where I'm comparing psychological and demographic qualities of apprehended urban and rural arsonists to see if bushfire arsonists actually represent a distinct population but I'm still in the data analysis phase so I have no preliminary results to share. E: quote:Controlled burns getting out is a combination of fire being unpredictable and weather being unpredictable. Pretty much this. My research concerns arson specifically which assumes a level of motivation in the fire. Technically some illegal fires are set accidentally (it's a crime in Australia to ignore fire bans, for example) but they're not classified as "arson" and fall outside of my area of expertise.
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Dec 5, 2016 04:16
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C.M. Kruger posted:There was a serious fire at a party in a Oakland artist space. 
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Dec 5, 2016 04:25
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Baronjutter posted:I do fire safety stuff for a living and it just makes me enraged when building owners don't take it seriously. I'm interested to know what authority/responsibility fire inspectors have to simply shut some place down that is a hazard. The news reports from this fire make it sound like it was a known fire risk and that the owners had been informed multiple times about their code violations; why were they allowed to stay open? Do the fire marshals not carry the authority to just condemn the building if the first violation isn't responded to promptly or appropriately?
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Dec 5, 2016 04:31
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Serrath posted:I'm interested to know what authority/responsibility fire inspectors have to simply shut some place down that is a hazard. The news reports from this fire make it sound like it was a known fire risk and that the owners had been informed multiple times about their code violations; why were they allowed to stay open? Do the fire marshals not carry the authority to just condemn the building if the first violation isn't responded to promptly or appropriately? Someone in PYF said- MrFellow posted:I live in Oakland, and the issue of "residential"/converted warehouses gets kind of complicated.
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Dec 5, 2016 04:37
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Serrath posted:On the topic of fires spreading quickly, my PhD research is concerned with developing treatment programs for arsonists and, among those psychological factors found to predispose people to setting fires, we've found an overestimation of a person's ability to control fire and an underestimation of the destructive capacity of a fire to be a predictor of firesetting recidivism. The treatment plan we're authoring and testing has sessions on showing arsonists videos of fire spreading like the ones posted in this thread, demonstrating that a fire can come to engulf an entire house in minutes. Did you ever have someone who was for lack of a better term "excited" to watch videos like that? How do you treat someone who is a serial arsonist? Is that covered under the DSM?
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Dec 5, 2016 05:09
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Serrath posted:We're finding more and more that arson offenders are characterised by high levels of trait aggression but without the social assertiveness or communication ability to resolve their aggression directly so they resort to fire, some as a symbolic act (only something so destructive is consummate to how aggrieved I feel) or because they feel so socially/communicatively disempowered that fire is literally the only way they can think of to sublimate their aggression. e: I act out my rage with strong letters to the New York Times. So far it's having no effect, but hey, give it another thousand years. Arsenic Lupin fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Dec 5, 2016 |
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Dec 5, 2016 05:35
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Arsenic Lupin posted:So starting out as a person with a lot of social anxiety -- leaving aside online communication -- I'm more likely to become an arsonist than a murderer? How the hell did you reach the conclusion? There's no assertion of likelihood of one over the other. It's a statement based on a pre-selected sample of people who are already arsonists.
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Dec 5, 2016 12:37
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Speaking of fire, a few days ago as I was heating my home I got to thinking "oh hey it's 2016 and literally every day in the cold seasons if I gently caress up doing this mundane chore I'll die in my sleep  ".
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Dec 5, 2016 12:39
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Jerry Cotton posted:Speaking of fire, a few days ago as I was heating my home I got to thinking "oh hey it's 2016 and literally every day in the cold seasons if I gently caress up doing this mundane chore I'll die in my sleep ? Do you not have smoke alarms and carbon monoxide detectors? Arsenic Lupin posted:e: I act out my rage with strong letters to the New York Times. So far it's having no effect, but hey, give it another thousand years. I got a correction published last week. 
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Dec 5, 2016 12:48
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This happened last Friday in Sioux Falls: Because apparently they thought they didn't need shoring to remove a load bearing wall. (or a permit either)  http://www.kare11.com/news/building-collapses-in-sioux-falls-two-trapped/362069041
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Dec 5, 2016 13:05
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Arsenic Lupin posted:So starting out as a person with a lot of social anxiety -- leaving aside online communication -- I'm more likely to become an arsonist than a murderer? Make them more incendiary
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Dec 5, 2016 14:28
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flosofl posted:This happened last Friday in Sioux Falls: From the twitter feed at the bottom of that page: https://twitter.com/Argus911/status/805762845950484480 https://twitter.com/Argus911/status/805765137139384320
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Dec 5, 2016 14:31
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Shifty Pony posted:From the twitter feed at the bottom of that page: A very large load-bearing hamburger.
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Dec 5, 2016 14:35
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:Make them more incendiary boo
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Dec 5, 2016 15:36
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrl3ex7w6nA I'm the guy pushing the airplane back into place.
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Dec 5, 2016 15:48
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Arsenic Lupin posted:So starting out as a person with a lot of social anxiety -- leaving aside online communication -- I'm more likely to become an arsonist than a murderer? Bwuh? This is exactly the same reasoning that looks at a bunch of heroin addicts, sees that they started smoking pot before they became addicted to heroin, and concludes that pot smokers are more likely to become heroin addicts than productive citizens.
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Dec 5, 2016 16:17
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Just a snowy day in Philadelphia.... https://twitter.com/JGinsberg311/status/805111406886617089?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw Oh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrl2cKzGMGs
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Dec 5, 2016 17:01
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flosofl posted:How the hell did you reach the conclusion? There's no assertion of likelihood of one over the other. It's a statement based on a pre-selected sample of people who are already arsonists. 
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Dec 5, 2016 17:22
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I used to work at a museum with just terrible fire safety. There was one main entrance, and one rear entrance for a two story building. with a capacity for around 80 people. Oil heated, with a kitchen, and a fireplace. The large windows, on both the first and second stories were covered by metal grating. Good thing about the rear emergency exit! Too bad that it's locked, and can't be opened from the inside without a key. I pointed this out to the museum director, who used to be the local fire chief, and he showed me that everything was ok, there was a hidden key in the fire alarm box. I wanted to sit him down and show him videos of a crowd crush situation, but knew it would do no good. And the grating wasn't a problem, because he had a set of bolt cutters in his office, on the second floor. I'm glad I no longer work there, for many, many reasons.
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Dec 5, 2016 17:52
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FogHelmut posted:Just a snowy day in Philadelphia.... We've got FOOOOAAAAAM!!! 
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Dec 5, 2016 18:14
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Three-Phase posted:We've got FOOOOAAAAAM!!! 
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Dec 5, 2016 18:24
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hmm yes the fire suppression at what I know to be an enormous transformer has activated. Let me move closer to the window.
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Dec 5, 2016 18:30
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