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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Some dipshit just shot up a pizzeria in Washington because fake news sites made him believe that there are children chained up in the basement. Read up on pizzagate. Execute all /b/tards. Also goons.
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Dec 5, 2016 15:57
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:Also goons. Actually, pizzagate threads are being gassed on sight in gbs. We still have some standards on journalistic integrity around here.
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Dec 5, 2016 16:07
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Friendly Humour posted:It's a much much weaker argument though. I mean, people believed him when he said he was resigning if No won. That's part of the reason why they voted No, no? People wanted to nail his coffin shut, this is something we can belive is a fact. Any hypothesis we can make about what would've happened if he managed to shift away part of the attention from himself, still has to consider this fact. You think that would've been a weaker argument than "he's a hurt sow, attacking everyone in sight"? Or, dunno, the sheer lying about the contents of the reform? No, there were weaker arguments that stood on headlines long enough to stick. The oppositions' storytelling was top notch, and would've been in any other realistic scenario. The real error? Ending up with an election law that had to go through popular vote. Oh, this is just my opinion, but saying "fake news don't matter all that much" in 2016 is just being out of touch with reality. World organizations are going through the estimate of the damage caused by fake news, and democratic control strategies aren't there yet. They do matter. A lot. At the very least, they reveal true colors. I don't understand how anyone can trust a political movement which rates this high on disinformation, but that's just me. Char fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Dec 5, 2016 |
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Dec 5, 2016 16:09
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Some dipshit just shot up a pizzeria in Washington because fake news sites made him believe that there are children chained up in the basement. Read up on pizzagate. I know, I was laughing my rear end off. Insane people tend to go on killing sprees if you give them guns. America has some very deep and eminently unsolvable problems with guns and nutcases, blaming fake news or stormfront or whatever is just turning your eyes away from the fact that you can't solve. Propaganda is nothing new and neither is Trumpism. Both are symptoms of a much wider and deeper crisis, and not the causes. They rise because people want them to rise. There's a demand for this, and it doesn't create itself.
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Dec 5, 2016 16:14
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Some dipshit just shot up a pizzeria in Washington because fake news sites made him believe that there are children chained up in the basement. Read up on pizzagate. 
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Dec 5, 2016 16:16
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I just read up on pizzagate. I'm not so sure I want to live on planet Earth any more. e. Seriously, "There are children chained up in the basement!" "We don't even have a basement, come in and see for yourself." "LIES LIES THE MAINSTREM MEDIA RAAAAAGH LIES LIES"  And I thought the five-starrers were bad. Is this where my country is headed too? 
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Dec 5, 2016 16:22
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:These insane conspiracy theories are going mainstream, attracting millions of people. World is going insane. Someone has just proven that throwing around insane conspiracy theories can make give you the most powerful office in the world.
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Dec 5, 2016 16:25
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Char posted:World organizations are going through the estimate of the damage caused by fake news, and democratic control strategies aren't there yet. "Democratic control strategies"? What, counter-propaganda? Telling people they're wrong and bad for reading infowars.com or something? People don't need trust or accurate information, they just need to be told things that reinforce their beliefs. And that is their need, our need, to hear stories that make sense of the world we perceive. If the people have lost faith in the political system and the elite narrative in the mainstream media, they will seek alternatives that tell them things that make sense. How the hell did we get here? Why is everything so hosed up? They must be interdimensional lizards or something, nothing else makes any kind of sense anymore. That's the world so-called normal people are looking at. They don't have time to read a hundred books and different news sites to slowly piece together some semblance of a narrative that explains why things got so hosed up. And since the mainstream media isn't giving them any explanations that make sense, they desperately seek alternatives in other kinds of propaganda. Fake news serve a real demand, and I think it's time we acknowledged the fact.
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Dec 5, 2016 16:29
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Toplowtech posted:Degaulle did it in 69 and did quit power over it But stuff that isn't really the initiative of the president -- for example any referendum about European-level things, or referendum that result from popular movements asking for one -- are a different matter.
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Dec 5, 2016 16:45
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Friendly Humour posted:"Democratic control strategies"? What, counter-propaganda? Telling people they're wrong and bad for reading infowars.com or something? So, why are you saying fake information doesn't matter much? You're describing something akin to a set of knobs and dials to promote or dissuade specific perceptions of reality. I don't get how you infer that I'm not acknowledging the fact that fake news serve a real demand. What I'm saying is "the existance of this demand is A Bad Thing".
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Dec 5, 2016 17:26
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Man, even the fake news are fake. http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/11/23/503146770/npr-finds-the-head-of-a-covert-fake-news-operation-in-the-suburbs quote:A lot of fake and misleading news stories were shared across social media during the election. One that got a lot of traffic had this headline: "FBI Agent Suspected In Hillary Email Leaks Found Dead In Apparent Murder-Suicide." The story is completely false, but it was shared on Facebook over half a million times.
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Dec 5, 2016 18:41
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Exploiting the stupid is good and all... but not like this.
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Dec 5, 2016 18:46
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https://twitter.com/inglesi/status/805829299894943745 Well, this isn't really how we wanted Valls to resign.
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Dec 5, 2016 18:50
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Mikl posted:e. Seriously, "There are children chained up in the basement!" "We don't even have a basement, come in and see for yourself." "LIES LIES THE MAINSTREM MEDIA RAAAAAGH LIES LIES" Yes. Information overload allows people to pick news in line with their preexisting biases more quickly and effectively.
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Dec 5, 2016 18:59
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Char posted:So, why are you saying fake information doesn't matter much? You're describing something akin to a set of knobs and dials to promote or dissuade specific perceptions of reality. No, I'm saying it doesn't matter because it's people who seek this. People aren't so malleable that merely exposing them to alt-right crap will turn them into nazis. It's the people who want alternative (if hosed up) narratives because nothing they read on 'real' news makes any kind of sense anymore. And it's not their fault or their responsibility to agree with ostensibly more reliable media narratives if nothing in them explains why everything around them is turning into crap. People are angry, and rightly so. And the political class isn't responding to that anger, but instead calling them 'deplorables' and racists and saying they shouldn't be angry at immigrants without giving them any other target for their anger. No solutions, just accusations of racism and fascism. If you keep telling the people they're wrong to be angry, what the hell do you think the result is going to be?
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Dec 5, 2016 19:10
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Friendly Humour posted:No, I'm saying it doesn't matter because it's people who seek this. People aren't so malleable that merely exposing them to alt-right crap will turn them into nazis. It's the people who want alternative (if hosed up) narratives because nothing they read on 'real' news makes any kind of sense anymore. And it's not their fault or their responsibility to agree with ostensibly more reliable media narratives if nothing in them explains why everything around them is turning into crap. People are angry, and rightly so. And the political class isn't responding to that anger, but instead calling them 'deplorables' and racists and saying they shouldn't be angry at immigrants without giving them any other target for their anger. No solutions, just accusations of racism and fascism. If you keep telling the people they're wrong to be angry, what the hell do you think the result is going to be? Uh, political parties tell them all the time who they should be mad at instead (the respective opponent party/parties). You really can't say they aren't told who they "should" be mad at.
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Dec 5, 2016 19:30
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fishmech posted:Uh, political parties tell them all the time who they should be mad at instead (the respective opponent party/parties). You really can't say they aren't told who they "should" be mad at. And yet, no matter which of the two (left/right coalitions) is in power, things remain the same. You think that after a few decades of things getting worse and worse with the same parties rotating in and out, that claim might start to ring a bit hollow?
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Dec 5, 2016 19:36
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Kassad posted:https://twitter.com/inglesi/status/805829299894943745 The one reassuring thing in all of this is that Valls is going to fail miserably. Juppé has proven that you can't win a primary by angling for the center, and he's not popular among the left.
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Dec 5, 2016 19:46
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Friendly Humour posted:And yet, no matter which of the two (left/right coalitions) is in power, things remain the same. You think that after a few decades of things getting worse and worse with the same parties rotating in and out, that claim might start to ring a bit hollow? And the sort of people who see that and think the solution to it is "Hitler was great" are not exactly thinking things through.
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Dec 5, 2016 19:55
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Mikl posted:I just read up on pizzagate. It's a perfect analogy for the pro-austerity lunatics who still exist in 2016
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Dec 5, 2016 20:57
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Friendly Humour posted:No, I'm saying it doesn't matter because it's people who seek this. People aren't so malleable that merely exposing them to alt-right crap will turn them into nazis. It's the people who want alternative (if hosed up) narratives because nothing they read on 'real' news makes any kind of sense anymore. And it's not their fault or their responsibility to agree with ostensibly more reliable media narratives if nothing in them explains why everything around them is turning into crap. People are angry, and rightly so. And the political class isn't responding to that anger, but instead calling them 'deplorables' and racists and saying they shouldn't be angry at immigrants without giving them any other target for their anger. No solutions, just accusations of racism and fascism. If you keep telling the people they're wrong to be angry, what the hell do you think the result is going to be? So, why do you think that turning against Renzi's lies about resigning would've been a weak argument? It's as strong as any other argument against him: in hindsight, Italians only wanted a narrative where they could send Renzi home, no matter who offers the catalyst. In hindsight, there was no realistic scenario where he could keep his seat. You can only discuss, now, on why a set of lies worked way better than the others. Friendly Humour posted:And yet, no matter which of the two (left/right coalitions) is in power, things remain the same. You think that after a few decades of things getting worse and worse with the same parties rotating in and out, that claim might start to ring a bit hollow? Sure, it does. But the situation, here, is that we've got hollow claims getting surpassed by more alluring hollow claims. Here's the catch-22: I have to call bullshit on this, but I cannot use truth, because I'll entrench the bullshit-believers - it isn't as appealing as other narratives. I can't even use counterpoints because they get rejected in a cult-like manner. Am I doomed to use alluring lies as well? This is why there's a huge moral hazard in letting fake news run amok. I don't see how this can de-escalate. Char fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Dec 5, 2016 |
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Dec 5, 2016 22:19
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fishmech posted:And the sort of people who see that and think the solution to it is "Hitler was great" are not exactly thinking things through. Why are you posting? You were hilariously embarrassed by being wrong in every possible way in the election after making 10,000 insane smug posts about how right you were going to be. Why?
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Dec 5, 2016 22:35
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I Think Renzi is cute and kinda cool He also might be an rear end in a top hat i don't know The next few years sure is gonna be "interesting" tho
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Dec 5, 2016 22:38
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ElNarez posted:The one reassuring thing in all of this is that Valls is going to fail miserably. Juppé has proven that you can't win a primary by angling for the center, and he's not popular among the left. Yeah, I don't know who Valls is going to pull that Macron isn't also getting. It is a bit hilarious to see a bunch of politicians fighting over the same upper middle class centrist vote (this is happening across the West).
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Dec 5, 2016 22:41
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Fiction posted:Why are you posting? You were hilariously embarrassed by being wrong in every possible way in the election after making 10,000 insane smug posts about how right you were going to be. Why? So you're saying that you disagree with him and that Hitler was great?
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Dec 5, 2016 22:42
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Mozi posted:So you're saying that you disagree with him and that Hitler was great? Apparently. Fiction posted:Why are you posting? You were hilariously embarrassed by being wrong in every possible way in the election after making 10,000 insane smug posts about how right you were going to be. Why? Why are you posting? You were never right and spent the primary whining and now you're melting down when people talk about voting for Nazis being bad.
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Dec 5, 2016 22:45
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fishmech posted:Why are you posting? You were never right and spent the primary whining and now you're melting down when people talk about voting for Nazis being bad. I just saw you posting here and wanted to let you know. It didn't actually have to do with your post.
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Dec 5, 2016 22:47
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Also there are lots of good criticisms to be leveled at M5S but "they're fascists" isn't one of them, yet.
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Dec 5, 2016 22:48
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I've talked with people in gue\ngl that had some interaction with 5 star and basically the conclusion is that they are the troll party.
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Dec 5, 2016 23:12
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ChainsawCharlie posted:I've talked with people in gue\ngl that had some interaction with 5 star and basically the conclusion is that they are the troll party. That's usually just closet right winger tbh
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Dec 5, 2016 23:48
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ChainsawCharlie posted:I've talked with people in gue\ngl that had some interaction with 5 star and basically the conclusion is that they are the troll party. Trump was the troll candidate
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Dec 5, 2016 23:48
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Wasn't "neither left nor right" originally a fascist slogan?
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Dec 5, 2016 23:50
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Okay here come my endless list of more french parties and even more candidates for the presidency, and today is “left wing parties who actually have elected people in them” day. If you understand european left-wing politics, the following will be quite easy to understand, if you do not, I am extremely sorry for this Judean People Front nonsense. Le Front de Gauche(The Left Front): Okay this is where thing go loving insanely byzantine or left-wing politics as usual as we call it. So see the Front de Gauche is(or was?) a coalition between the communist party and what was supposed to be the French version of Die Linke; Le partie de gauche(the left wing party) composed of splitters from the Socialist Party (the former left non-liberal wing) with a larger coalition of lot of small (and mostly insignificant) left-wing splitter parties including a least one splitter group from the communist party(of the “STALIN DID NOTHING WRONG, YOU REVISIONISTS!!” kind.), several splitter groups from the NPA (itself a splitter group from Lutte Ouvière remember?), all united in their will to join the Front but not to form a party together (let stay serious, guys we could get far too many votes) and a few splitter groups from the various now mostly united green parties, sharing the same “let not unify outside the Front” spirit. So basically it's an electoral coalition between the communist and a group of splitter groups. Mostly classical anti liberal leftism, some green and anti-European . Basically the lost child of Jeremy Corbyn and a jigsaw puzzle made from 25 different jigsaw puzzles. So now you are wondering who is the candidate of the splitter obsessed coalition? Well see they are kinda in a “Yoko Ono and Lenon are dating” phase and they normally already splitting more often than they fart. The communist party felt like they were getting used by the former Front presidential candidate (Mélenchon) after his 11.1% of the vote in 2012. That was apparently too good a result for everyone involved. Maybe they could split and magically all get more vote? So they all kinda decided not to support him this cycle (and also not to support the socialist party candidate unless they like the PS selected primary candidate). So Mélenchon decided to declare the Front de Gauche dead and do a solo run with a new party because “gently caress you I did 11%”. But the Communist party says “no, the party is not dead, it did 11%, maybe we can get more votes by confusing the poo poo out of people, I bet, it has been so long since we did do at least 11% by ourselves”. So the communists still haven’t announced their proper candidate in any serious way but said they keep saying they want one unique candidate for the whole left-wing, all while splitting the poo poo out of of their own front. So here are the potential Communist Party candidates, I can’t guarantee it will be them , that they will run or if they will run under the Front de Gauche name or under the communist party name but they don’t know either so whatever: Pierre Laurent :  Senator for the French Communist Party (they still have 18 senator total, alongside 7 Member of parliaments, 1 EU Mp, one president of department, 5 mayors of cities of over 70k people and 1588 city council members and 29 regional council members. So see while it’s not the post ww2 party when they had 40% of the votes and were taking orders directly from Moscow but it’s still better than the previous few parties we have talked about before). Laurent is the one who want one candidate for the whole left-wing but only if the PS candidate is Montebourg. Still he doesn’t “exclude he could end up being candidate”. So who the gently caress know. Also the party voted NO to idea of supporting Montebourg in any form, wtf is going on… André Chassaigne, aka the spare communist guy who could be running, seriously:  The candidate if Laurent isn’t candidate because seriously this is ridiculous. Because we need an understudy, apparantly. And of course Jean-Luc Mélenchon for La France Insoumise (Unsubdued France): this year new party party now claims 150 000+ members. A “Green socialism” Anti-Liberal, Sovereignist, Eurosceptic party. Mélenchon was on the left wing of the Socialist Party since Mitterand, did poorly at the Reims Internal Congrés a few years back, said “gently caress it I will start my own place full of blackjack tables and splitters”. Ended up with 11.1% in 2012. Then had to start a new party because the communists were grouchy.  Bask in his glory. Or something Edit: while the communist party leadership voted to run an independant candidate, the members voted to follow Mélenchon, so, that whole mess is as sorted as it can be when talking about French leftist movements (which is to say, nominally sorted at the very least, but still probably a bit of a mess). The green parties candidates: Europe Ecologie Les Verts (European Ecology, The greens): Yannick Jadot  The EELV candidate (former Greenpeace) is there because Nicolas Hulot (a popular tv star) isn’t dumb enough to be candidate for the party (probably some online poker addiction, for all I know). The party got 9 members of parliament; 6 Senators, 5 EU MP; 52 regional counsilors, 31 Department counselors, 1 mayor in a town of 70k + 6000 members, probably even more internal independent movements. The less I talk about their politics (and it’s generally rarely related to ecology) and their members, the better I feel and the less I wonder why people keep voting for them. They were part of the current government but all their ministers quited, the only smart thing they ever did this electoral cycle. The LEFTEST ecologist movement. Mouvement Ecologiste Indépendant(Independent Ecological Movement): Antoine Waechter:  You do not need to know anything about him, that’s literally all you need to know. May not have 500 mayors signatures this year but did in the past. The party claim to “be neither right or left wing” but they will never have one guy elected outside a small village or a regional council so let put them here. Used to be allied with some parties now in EE-LV, whose members now call them “ayatollahs of ecology”. And here is the bad boy. The socialist Party&Allied Parties, officially “La Belle Alliance Populaire” (the Beautiful Popular Alliance, and neither Holy, Roman or an Empire ): one candidate selected in the next year primary, at least 10 candidates to the primary, probably more. There have been talk on having only one candidate against Valls but it’s just Hamon and Montebourg sharing jokes and waiting to see of anyone is stupid(or smart) enough to drop out, if you ask me.  Jean-Luc Bennahmias: Former green, former Modem (centrist), leader of his own party the Front Démocrate (the democratic front), is there to talk about his ideas and get under 10% of the vote.  Gérard Filoche, Socialist party member. Trotkist in his youth. Married to a relatively well known feminist. Write in the official communist newspaper and on Mediapart and Marianne. Will be probably the actual left-est candidate there, gently caress you Montebourg.  Sidi Hamada-hamidou: From Mayotte, member of the Parti Radical de Gauche, the PRG (Radical Party of the Left).  Benoît Hamon : The socialist party insider, MP, former minister, member of the party bureau. Formally allied with the strauss-kahnian branch of the party.  Pierre Larrouturou, : former vice president of an allied party you will never hear of outside the primary(Nouvelle Donne = New deal, you should be able to guess their program).  Maxime Legrand: the great Maxim. Leftwing patron. I don’t know really. I think it may be the doctor using some cunning disguise.  Marie-Noëlle Lienemann: French senator, member of the PS bureau. The only woman in the “actually confirmed group.”  Arnaud de Montebourg; is married to a pretty lady author who is in the party too, is always in the weirdest photos, always try to make people fell like he is totally different from everyone else, is the male Segolene Royal in term of mediatic (lack of) style and self survival political instinct, may have a chance and may be liked on his left (but hated on his right). Former minister of the economy, replaced by Macron, it should tell you how much they loved kicking him out of the government. Some people like the ideas he is claiming to defend more than they like him. I am one of them.  François de Rugy : president of an ecological party, leader of the ecological group in parliament.  Manuel Carlos Valls Gaifetti : Spanish born, naturalized french in the 80s, former prime minister, is hated by nearly everyone on his left, is considered the most rightwing candidate there, that should tell you the score. Son of a spanish painter, like boxing, will try to reach round 15, for his wife. Is the political heir of the party most hated president since now canonized Mitterand and the main rival for everyone here. Joined the party socialist at 18 in 1980, basically was the party main henchman for decades. Know the party political machine like he built it. Actually helped to build it. Will all this help him succeed or condemn him ?  Fabien Verdier: Who? From where? Well, at least he looks happy to be there. People who said they were interested but may be too busy being the new interim prime minister to be candidate , aka the competent women:  Annick Girardin : PRG member, Secretary of State.  Marisol Touraine : Minister of Social Affairs and Health.  Najat Vallaud-Belkacem : Minister of Education, Higher Education, and Research, Sometime named by the press as possible candidate but you can be skeptical:  Anne Hidalgo : imho too busy being mayor of Paris and being hated by the right to really want to waste her time being president, but it’s not like i know what she really desires.  Ségolene Royal : former most hated woman by the right on the left. Lost in 2007 against Sarkozy. Is sometime weird. Other time is pure meme material.  Christine Taubira : most hated woman by the right on the left, also target of really dumb racism and passed the gay marriage law as Justice minister. It’s like a super nova of racial hatred and gayhating around her. Probably too smart to waste her time in the primary this year. Actual extra left wing candidate, not in the ps primary : Parti radical de gauche et Génération écologie (a rogue PRG member with some green support) :  Sylvia Pinel : The lone Baron from the south, decided to run this year with some generation ecology support, I do not see where she hope to go. Because there weren’t enough candidate on the left. Next time; the center the ump the extra lovely ump candidate just there because why not and Le pen. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Dec 17, 2016 |
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Dec 5, 2016 23:52
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Badger of Basra posted:Wasn't "neither left nor right" originally a fascist slogan? Kinda makes sense ideologically too: left wingers assume history as class struggle and as such antagonism as the basis of politics, right wingers/conservatives on the other hand see that society was good at some point before the X (the jew, communism, whatever) came and blew it so that they are just plainly for 'realism'
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Dec 5, 2016 23:52
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Toplowtech posted:
I'm not on the right and I loving hate her. In her stint as minister of the environment, she has:
She's a goddamn traitor.
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Dec 6, 2016 00:20
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Cat Mattress posted:I'm not on the right and I loving hate her. What did the ban on wood heating actually do? Like "no starting a fire in your fireplace for ambience" or "old whole home furnaces need to be upgraded to newer wood furnaces that reduce emissions or switched to other means of fuel"?
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Dec 6, 2016 00:23
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Toplowtech posted:Bunch of stuff Great job but I'm sort of disappointed you didn't mention the oh-so-french Hollande-Royal shenanigans... 
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Dec 6, 2016 00:26
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Fiction posted:Also there are lots of good criticisms to be leveled at M5S but "they're fascists" isn't one of them, yet. They're getting really close. Their entire party and all their actions are predicated on the following principle: "our Leader is right and perfect and will lead us to glory. There is no fault in anything He does. We must obey Him in anything He says. Whoever dares say otherwise or oppose us, whether within or outside the Party, is our enemy, and must be eliminated." So far their methods for "elimination" are mostly political, but they also resort to false accusations and character assassination through the internet (give that buzzfeed article about them a good once over). From there to physical elimination there's a very short distance. They might not be fascists yet, but they are literally one step removed from becoming fascists.
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Dec 6, 2016 00:34
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Cat Mattress posted:I'm not on the right and I loving hate her. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Dec 6, 2016 |
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Dec 6, 2016 00:36
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Toplowtech posted:So here are the potential Communist Party candidates, I can’t guarantee it will be them , that they will run or if they will run under the Front de Gauche name or under the communist party name but they don’t know either so whatever:ed France)[/b]: this year new party party now claims 150 000+ members. A “Green socialism” Anti-Liberal, Sovereignist, Eurosceptic party. Mélenchon was on the left wing of the Socialist Party since Mitterand, did poorly at the Reims Internal Congrés a few years back, said “gently caress it I will start my own place full of blackjack tables and splitters”. Ended up with 11.1% in 2012. Then had to start a new party because the communists were grouchy. Actually, this part needs a bit of an update: while the communist party leadership voted to run an independant candidate, the members voted to follow Mélenchon, so, that whole mess is as sorted as it can be when talking about French leftist movements (which is to say, nominally sorted at the very least, but still probably a bit of a mess).
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Dec 6, 2016 00:47
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