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Raldikuk posted:Their third largest bank is struggling to raise 5bn euros? jfc The situation becomes worst when you find out two things: 1. Under new EU laws a bank's creditors must take losses before a government can step in with the public's money to save it. 2. 45% of all Italian banking debt is held by average Italians. A year ago Italy stepped in to rescue some of it's smaller banks under the EU rules and 130,000 shareholders and bondholders lost everything. An elderly pensioner killed himself after losing his life savings. There was outrage, so Renzi asked the EU to wave the rules for Italy, but was rebuffed by Merkal and the EU. With a government solution politically untenable. Banca Monte dei Paschi di Siena is now trying to raise the money itself. I'd like to note that the $5.3 billion attempting to be raised is 10 times that of the bank's current market capitalization of $590 million and it's bad loans total $30 billion. $2.15 billion is held by the average Italian. The problem is clear to see. If a deal to raise private money falls through then it looks like the European Central Bank will step in. Guarantee full repayment of the first 100,000 to every junior bondholder. Senior bonds and deposits left untouched. Pen off the $28 billion bad loans to a securitization vehicle supported by a government guarantee. The other Italian banks also need to raise capital though, if no wants to invest private money into Monte dei Paschi, who would want to with the others? Except the public's money. Like Dead Cosmonaut said, they're trying to avoid the public noticing how bad the situation is, but if people do notice and panic that their money isn't safe and a bank run occurs then we're in for a bad time.
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Dec 5, 2016 21:41
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$30B in debt on a market cap of $600M? Holy poo poo. They need an FDIC for bank investors.
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Dec 6, 2016 00:00
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THE YUAN IS COLLAPSING DESU
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Dec 6, 2016 00:03
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Grouchio posted:THE YUAN IS COLLAPSING DESU Oh yeah, has this been confirmed legit?
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Dec 6, 2016 00:38
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Anchor Wanker posted:Oh yeah, has this been confirmed legit? Don't know yet.
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Dec 6, 2016 00:39
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Anchor Wanker posted:Oh yeah, has this been confirmed legit? http://www.reuters.com/article/markets-china-yuan-idUSL4N1D9249 quote:Market bears smell blood as China scrambles to plug capital outflows
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Dec 6, 2016 00:42
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The XE chart seems to show the RMB back to 6.8 http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=CNY&view=12h
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Dec 6, 2016 00:44
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Fojar38 posted:The XE chart seems to show the RMB back to 6.8 What the hell happened? Never seen anything like it.
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Dec 6, 2016 00:49
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Convergence posted:What the hell happened? Never seen anything like it. The guess is that the upstream provider for XE was sending incorrect data.
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Dec 6, 2016 00:52
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Funny to think that things are fragile enough right now that even a mistake might possibly set things off.
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Dec 6, 2016 00:55
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OhFunny posted:With a government solution politically untenable. Banca Monte dei Paschi di Siena is now trying to raise the money itself. I'd like to note that the $5.3 billion attempting to be raised is 10 times that of the bank's current market capitalization of $590 million and it's bad loans total $30 billion. $2.15 billion is held by the average Italian. The problem is clear to see. Insane. Is the 2008 recession going to be like World War 1, where they called it the Great War and the War to End All Wars, right up until World War 2 blew it away?
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Dec 6, 2016 01:12
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cheese posted:Everything is fine guys, its totally fine! This a sane and good thing, and the world economy is totally healthy! Probably. The super rich in the financial sector basically built a house of cards; an enormous one that was badly planned and erected on uneven ground near a fault line. Now, the rational answer is to carefully tear parts of it down, rearrange some things, and build up the foundation and, you know, actually use solid loving building materials but their only response has been "but then we'll lose our awesome house of cards! The only real answer is to make it even bigger and less stable." The world economy is a disaster waiting to happen but all of the right wing think tanks are vomiting praise of austerity politics and tax cuts on the rich which are, of course, accomplishing nothing but making a larger, less stable house of cards. If we don't have another Great Depression-level economic event I'll be surprised. Basically what's happening is capitalism is breaking down but nobody with money and power wants to get rid of it.
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Dec 6, 2016 01:16
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You don't stop playing the game when you keep winning especially if you won't actually face any consequences of the entire thing collapsing.
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Dec 6, 2016 01:46
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Is this the right thread to post gulag the bankers or is that a no-no
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Dec 6, 2016 03:58
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Proud Christian Mom posted:You don't stop playing the game when you keep winning especially if you won't actually face any consequences of the entire thing collapsing. You can only impoverish and starve the non-rich so hard for so long before the pitchforks and torches come out.
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Dec 6, 2016 04:27
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Yah but as we've seen those pitchforks end up being pointed towards ethnic minorities and other disenfranchised classes, not the plutocrats.
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Dec 6, 2016 04:39
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shrike82 posted:Yah but as we've seen those pitchforks end up being pointed towards ethnic minorities and other disenfranchised classes, not the plutocrats. no but you see all those mean poors FORCED those banks to become over leveraged with bad mortgages because bill clinton made them buy all those houses 
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Dec 6, 2016 13:26
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:Is this the right thread to post gulag the bankers or is that a no-no That's not even in a left sentiment anymore in 2016.
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Dec 6, 2016 14:58
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MiddleOne posted:That's not even in a left sentiment anymore in 2016. The stuff on the right is more gulag the (((bankers))) or (((globalists))), which is a not so subtle difference. I know the echoes thing is played out, but I'm not sure of another good shorthand for the modern version of the Jewish world conspiracy garbage.
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Dec 6, 2016 15:19
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It appears efforts to raise private money have failed. Banca Monte dei Paschi di Siena's board has sent a letter to the European Central Bank asking for an extension to mid-January to raise the €5 billion it needs. If the ECB refuses than Italy will precede with a "bail in" in a few days. Rome is arguing that due to calm markets that the extension should be granted.
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Dec 7, 2016 22:16
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Meanwhile, US stock markets hit another all time high. There's something weird going on here.
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Dec 7, 2016 22:22
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Freezer posted:Meanwhile, US stock markets hit another all time high. There's something weird going on here.
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Dec 7, 2016 22:25
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If it crashes investors stop making money so there's a shared suspension of disbelief to keep the lie going. Wile E. Coyote always gets a certain distance in the air over the cliff before he falls. It took some time after people started defaulting on their mortgages before the securities that backed those mortgages actually recognized that fact.
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Dec 7, 2016 22:28
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Freezer posted:Meanwhile, US stock markets hit another all time high. There's something weird going on here. Trump promised to drastically cut taxes on the rich which makes rich person income sources sexier. Trump also basically promised to openly pillage the government to give money to the rich. I imagine people are buying everything they can get their hands on in anything that could benefit from that. Apparently stuff like private prison stocks shot up like 40% almost overnight. Other people are buying because they think trump will actually massively grow the economy or bring work back to America. It's all still a bubbly house of cards ready to crash.
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Dec 7, 2016 22:34
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Trump is already boosting the markets before he's taken office. Where are all the people up thread talking about an imminent economic crisis.
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Dec 8, 2016 01:01
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Stock market != economy
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Dec 8, 2016 02:50
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shrike82 posted:Trump is already boosting the markets before he's taken office. The stock market is hitting new highs under Calvin Coolidge every day! Eternal economic prosperity is assured.
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Dec 8, 2016 02:56
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Lol at the people moving the goal posts from a recession is imminent to a recession will take place at some point in the future. The usual suspects itt have been crying wolf about the world economy blowing up since 08. At what point can we call you guys preppers.
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Dec 8, 2016 02:59
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And in what ways do you estimate the world economy is better off and safer now than it was before the last time it blew up?
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Dec 8, 2016 03:14
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shrike82 posted:Lol at the people moving the goal posts from a recession is imminent to a recession will take place at some point in the future. So you're saying market cycles do not exist?
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Dec 8, 2016 03:16
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Mozi posted:And in what ways do you estimate the world economy is better off and safer now than it was before the last time it blew up? We have discovered the magical power of negative interest rates, which I'm sure won't backfire horribly.
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Dec 8, 2016 03:17
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shrike82 posted:Lol at the people moving the goal posts from a recession is imminent to a recession will take place at some point in the future. Trump is pretty likely to cause untold economic woes to Main St. In the short term Wall St. and K St. will do just fine; they'll see pretty big gains. There are more jobs now than when the Great Recession hit sure but most of them suck. Wages are absolutely stagnant and more and more jobs are being automated away. Trump is going to build a flimsy house of cards on top of the house of cards that is the economy right now. poo poo will get bad. Whether it happens sooner or later is yet to be seen.
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Dec 8, 2016 03:23
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Trump is pretty likely to cause untold economic woes to Main St. In the short term Wall St. and K St. will do just fine; they'll see pretty big gains. There are more jobs now than when the Great Recession hit sure but most of them suck. Wages are absolutely stagnant and more and more jobs are being automated away. Trump is going to build a flimsy house of cards on top of the house of cards that is the economy right now.
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Dec 8, 2016 03:26
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Grouchio posted:Worse than the Great Depression you suppose? My guess is probably not. ...probably. Who the gently caress knows how badly Trump and Pals could mess things up.
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Dec 8, 2016 03:30
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Anyone who can tell you with a high level of certainty when an economic event is going to happen is in all likelihood a fraud. Nevertheless, all the signs are there that the economy is in a really fragile state, suggesting we are on the verge of a crisis.
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Dec 8, 2016 03:43
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shrike82 posted:Lol at the people moving the goal posts from a recession is imminent to a recession will take place at some point in the future. who is in the white house again?
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Dec 8, 2016 05:14
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Trump saved 1000 Carrier jobs and created 50000 new ones through a deal with Sprint. What has Obama done?
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Dec 8, 2016 05:16
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They still need another $30 billion before they even launch the fund, you're as gullible as the average Trump voter
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Dec 8, 2016 05:19
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Those 50,000 jobs are as real right now as the performance incentives on Ricky Williams' rookie contract
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Dec 8, 2016 05:20
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Obama only achieved full us employment 
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Dec 8, 2016 05:25
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