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Vehementi posted:Why did Arnold need to kill all the hosts in Dolores's massacre? I assumed it was maybe he needed to push an update to all of them or something when they went in for repairs (like an earlier episode did). What was it? The "Arnold voice" update? How did Ford "stop the plan"? I see a guess that it was an attempt to slow down opening of the park - do we have more info? If Arnold was trying to destroy the robots to delay it, is this just Dumb Writers because they didn't kill any hosts, they caused damage to the robots' bodies that they are programmed to respond with by playing dead until someone with an iPad pushes the "ok get back up" button? Arnold was trying to get the park shut down because he realized it was hell for the robots and the robots were alive. Killing all the machines and forcing your partner to start over from scratch with little money and no current investors, after a huge scandal where people were actually killed, was supposed to convince Ford to never open Westworld in the first place. Other employees would probably all be scared away as well, making it even more likely for Ford to just throw in the towel. Plus there's Ford's whole "Arnold wasn't the type to have accidents, he was too careful for that." It was meant to be a message to Ford from Arnold that was so strong that Ford couldn't ignore it.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:09
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quote:Correct me if I'm wrong about anything here: Think of the park as like an MMO, the new narrative was basically like an expansion or DLC. Something that can be sold to pump up interest and give them something to advertise. Of course the new narrative wasn't actually journey to sea for a dying dolores, but robot uprising. Vehementi posted:
At the point where Arnold did that, the park wasn't open yet. He thought that he could cause enough damage and cause that it would be financially impossible to rebuild, since they hadn't developed the tech or systems to do it quickly. He also probably hoped that hosts killing a human would also be enough to give investors cold feet.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:10
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MechaSeinfeld posted:... They should introduce a Williambot. They did. It's Teddy ...
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Dec 6, 2016 02:11
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quote:Is this some kind of meta-post, making fun of the people who don't get it? I'm getting Poe's Law'd so hard here I get it, enough that the physical maze object doesn't actually mean anything. Are you telling me they're programmed to search for the maze object? That they need to scalp each other to get consciousness? That each robot will have to individually go all around the park on a treasure hunt to find the wooden toy in order to achieve consciousness? (Will they get multiple instances?)
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Dec 6, 2016 02:12
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The Glumslinger posted:Think of the park as like an MMO, the new narrative was basically like an expansion or DLC. Something that can be sold to pump up interest and give them something to advertise. Of course the new narrative wasn't actually journey to sea for a dying dolores, but robot uprising. Yeah but it was't really DLC because who would get pumped up about a robot uprising, if its a real uprising? That'd scare everybody away. The DLC was the cover story, the reality was Ford was planning on killing everybody and came up with a way to make it go down like one of his stories.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:12
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Zaphod42 posted:Yeah but it was't really DLC because who would get pumped up about a robot uprising, if its a real uprising? That'd scare everybody away. The DLC was the cover story, the reality was Ford was planning on killing everybody and came up with a way to make it go down like one of his stories. William seemed pretty excited and he was the majority shareholder 
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Dec 6, 2016 02:13
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Braincloud posted:They did. It's Teddy ... Except Teddy already existed.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:15
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I think it'll be called ShogunWorld since there were formal regions called Shogunates. SamuraiWorld would be like calling WestWorld something like SheriffWorld.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:20
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Phanatic posted:Watching this finale now and goddamn are these the most incompetent corporate security dudes ever. Don't check blind spots, stand there and let one guy shoot three of yours down without firing back once, these guys give hired goons a bad name. Is corporate security particularly good or is this like compared to shadowrun?
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Dec 6, 2016 02:22
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Vehementi posted:I get it, enough that the physical maze object doesn't actually mean anything. Are you telling me they're programmed to search for the maze object? That they need to scalp each other to get consciousness? That each robot will have to individually go all around the park on a treasure hunt to find the wooden toy in order to achieve consciousness? (Will they get multiple instances?) The maze is symbolic. There's no treasure hunt. A good analogy is found in this section from Helen Keller's autobiography. quote:Helen Keller’s world fell dark and silent when she was just 19 months old, when an unknown disease left her deaf and blind. She became an unruly child who often lashed out in anger at her inability to communicate and her failure to comprehend the world around her. When Helen tipped over her sister’s crib one day, her parents knew they needed to find help. Imagine being blind and deaf practically from birth. You exist entirely in a dark and incomprehensible world and can't even think about how anything could be different. You can't even think, at least not in the way we understand it. How miraculous it would be to realize that things have meaning, that you are an entity unto yourself! The difference between humans and animals isn't the ability to think; animals can think. The difference is in our ability to think *about* thinking. We accept this meta level so obviously and inherently that it is difficult to even grasp the concept. We can look at our own thoughts and question them. We can wonder what it means for something to be moral or immoral. We can choose to delay gratification or quit bad habits. We can conceive of ourselves as an entity. Helen Keller navigated the maze of her mind to reach this point. Dolores navigated the maze of her mind to become self-aware, conscious, and possessing free will. There wasn't a literal maze Helen Keller walked through, just her mind trying to figure out her mind. Anyone interested in how this meta level of thought is necessary for self-awareness should read some Douglas Hofstadter, particularly his books Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid (which won the Pulitzer), I Am A Strange Loop (a more focused and straightforward rendering of this main point), and The Mind's I. regulargonzalez fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Dec 6, 2016 |
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Dec 6, 2016 02:23
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regulargonzalez posted:The maze is symbolic. There's no treasure hunt. A good analogy is found in this section from Helen Keller's autobiography. Though the maze (since it belonged to his dead son) also was a direct development of Arnold's theory that pain is the key to a sense of self.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:25
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The show is good, goons are terrible. Do you guys think season 2 will continue to explore ideas about consciousness, or are they finished with that and maybe they will focus in AI rights next season?
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Dec 6, 2016 02:33
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Speaking of Maeve, I'm in agreement with others here that it was Ford scripting her narrative the entire time, as Bernard's resurrection by Felix and Maeve was not surprising at all to Ford. One aspect of Maeve that I haven't seen discussed much here is why Ford scripted her to break out. I don't think Ford was ever going to simply let Maeve go; she serves no purpose simply trying to integrate herself into society. Plus, she so far was the only host we saw specifically given the ability to control other hosts. I think Ford's plan for Maeve was to escape WestWorld and then proceed to attend another park to force a host uprising there. He couldn't do it himself at every park, so Maeve was his backup plan. However Maeve wrecked that plan when she chose to step off the train. Now I'm wondering if Maeve could become the Big Bad of season 2, tampering down Ford's Narrative by taking control of the awakened hosts as her act of revenge on Ford for using her as a tool for his own machinations and as a way of unlocking her own consciousness by defying Ford's plans.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:36
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El Jeffe posted:I think it'll be called ShogunWorld since there were formal regions called Shogunates. SamuraiWorld would be like calling WestWorld something like SheriffWorld. I'm pretty sure "SamuraiWorld" is the one that doesn't get Aeden's standard replies.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:37
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nopants posted:Ford is Hannibal for any schlubs that haven't figured it out. He is literally Mad Mikklesen's Hannibal.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:37
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Zaphod42 posted:Arnold was trying to get the park shut down because he realized it was hell for the robots and the robots were alive.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:39
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Lycus posted:I'm pretty sure "SamuraiWorld" is the one that doesn't get Aeden's standard replies. Well nevermind then!
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Dec 6, 2016 02:41
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I assume that Arnold figured that the massacre would convince everyone that the hosts were too dangerous to be around customers. I thought that Dolores massacring the engineers would be more evocative, but maybe Nolan thought that that would be too villainous for Arnold.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:42
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Also seemed like Arnold didnt think Ford had the technical expertise to make more consciousness capable bots, he says something to that effect and Bernard says there's a lot of their core that Ford doesn't understand. How he made Bernard then, idk, but he said it.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:45
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If there is a large Chinese investment in the park, and it really is an island in the china sea according to Nordic Closed Captioning, Maybe it's SinoWorld? Just an amalgamation of all eastern cultures appropriated under "china"
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Dec 6, 2016 02:46
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bring back old gbs posted:If there is a large Chinese investment in the park, and it really is an island in the china sea according no Nordic Closed Captioning, Maybe it's SinoWorld?
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Dec 6, 2016 02:47
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SinoWorld gets Aeden's standard "I don't what you're saying" replies.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:50
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The Glumslinger posted:William seemed pretty excited and he was the majority shareholder poo poo, you got me there!
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Dec 6, 2016 02:50
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Zaphod42 posted:Maeve was re-programmed by "Arnold". But Ford revealed that it was him all along. He was probably using some of Arnold's old code so it was still tagged as belonging to him, or just using Arnold's log-in ID to obfuscate who was doing it or what he was planning on, and to hide it from other employees. Why can't the hosts talking to themselves be expressed in Arnold's code showing up in their displays. What would Delores' readout looklike at the end? In other words, who would her decision to shoot Ford look like it came from if you'd had a tablet attached to her at the time?
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Dec 6, 2016 02:51
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drat If China is making a JapanWorld there's gonna be a whole ton of conscious Japanobots because the suffering there is gonna be off the chain
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Dec 6, 2016 02:53
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regulargonzalez posted:The maze is symbolic. There's no treasure hunt. A good analogy is found in this section from Helen Keller's autobiography. Yeah I am a strange loop is a fantastic read, although dense (As is GEB) and relates to this show pretty well, since its all about the potential origins of consciousness from non-consciousness.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:54
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bring back old gbs posted:If there is a large Chinese investment in the park, and it really is an island in the china sea according to Nordic Closed Captioning, Maybe it's SinoWorld? That'd be like Rome World really being about Vikings. That's an entirely bizarre suggestion. Why is Samurai World so hard to imagine? It'd be like Westworld being called Cowboy World, which wouldn't be an unreasonable name if "Westworld" didn't flow a lot better. The site more or less confirms that it's a thing anyway. Edit: Shogun World is also a silly guess, since it'd probably be about the lawless Sengoku period where there was no strong central Shogun.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:53
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wins32767 posted:Why can't the hosts talking to themselves be expressed in Arnold's code showing up in their displays. What would Delores' readout looklike at the end? In other words, who would her decision to shoot Ford look like it came from if you'd had a tablet attached to her at the time? Who says it can't be expressed in code? It just isn't clear what is happening from looking at the code, since it becomes insanely complicated at that point. There's so many possible connections and meta connections, it becomes spaghetti code. Remember what Ford said to Bernard about Occam? "What we are doing now is so, so complicated, that the simplest explanation no longer applies" I think based on my studies of AI that you'd just see a lot of what appeared to be following different pre-existing conditions, but you would have a really hard time actually tracking where anything causes anything else to definitively happen, like non-deterministic code. It would also necessarily involve the code writing new code or new neural net nodes, and then referencing those, and then building connections to those. Exponential growth, basically. What would her decision to look like? In code, probably "IF X then -> Kill Ford" or something, but trying to debug through her call stack to figure out where that call came from would prove to be monstrously complicated and involve millions of recursive calls. E: Those recursive calls would also be linked to her memories. Basically just a gigantic network, beyond comprehension. You could attach a debug point to any bit of code you wanted but you wouldn't really understand the whole system. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Dec 6, 2016 |
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Dec 6, 2016 02:57
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I'm not sure why they didn't go with EastWorld, but SamuraiWorld is fine.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:57
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Eiba posted:... SinoWorld featuring primarily Samurai? "probably" ?????? Who says? They could do Shogun times just fine if they wanted. Pretty arbitrary IMO. You can tell millions of stories in either time period / setting.
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Dec 6, 2016 02:59
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The Glumslinger posted:William seemed pretty excited and he was the majority shareholder Spoiler for next season: Ed Harris has already been recast, so it looks like he might even survive.
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Dec 6, 2016 03:00
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Lycus posted:I'm not sure why they didn't go with EastWorld, but SamuraiWorld is fine. Because EastWorld is a fully immersive existential despair simulator with thousands of narratives centered around the rightful ownership of clay.
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Dec 6, 2016 03:01
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It probably wouldn't be about a particular period, just a mishmash of medieval Japan cliches.
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Dec 6, 2016 03:01
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*the scene goes into ultra slow motion as the camera dives into Delores' code*code:
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Dec 6, 2016 03:01
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NoDamage posted:Arnold's suicide-by-Dolores does not make a lot of sense to me. Why not stay alive and actively try to convince Ford and the company not to open the park instead? Or continue to sabotage the park opening? It seems by killing himself he basically handed over control to Ford, who then proceeded to open the park anyway without any resistance. His death did not accomplish its intended purpose at all. I don't think they directly said it but the dead son backstory Bernard had was clearly something that actually happened to Arnold, especially since it happened over 35 years before.
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Dec 6, 2016 03:03
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wins32767 posted:In other words, who would her decision to shoot Ford look like it came from if you'd had a tablet attached to her at the time? Dolores.
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Dec 6, 2016 03:04
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Intel&Sebastian posted:*the scene goes into ultra slow motion as the camera dives into Delores' code* We're caulking and floating this bitch.
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Dec 6, 2016 03:04
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I'm glad they didn't try to be too cute and go Eastworld. That's a name you'd only use to basically reference Westworld, rather than a name you'd use for a park itself. And if you want to alienate the Chinese, go ahead and call a Japanese park the "east" in general.Zaphod42 posted:"probably" ?????? Who says? They could do Shogun times just fine if they wanted. Pretty arbitrary IMO. You can tell millions of stories in either time period / setting. I mean, you could make an Edo period park, but I don't see why you would. Anything earlier would probably (i.e. by my gut sense of these things, nothing more) be too obscure. Edit: tooterfish posted:He got his Christmas wish!
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Dec 6, 2016 03:06
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tooterfish posted:He got his Christmas wish! I can't think of a plot I'm more excited for next season than watching Ed Harris get a chance to actually go all Deadliest Game out there. Or actually quickly realize that he was actually a pussy, and just got off on attacking the defenselss. Kind of like how he took out the entire army garrison because he knew they couldn't actually kill him, as opposed to him being a badass
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Dec 6, 2016 03:08
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Pussy Quipped posted:We're caulking and floating this bitch. You have shot 2,868 lbs of board of directors meat but can only carry 200 back to the wagon
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Dec 6, 2016 03:10
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