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WampaLord posted:Do you have me mixed up with someone else? I said arm, not shoulder. Woah Yeah sorry. Meant to quote Potato Salad. Potato Salad posted:Agreed. What has me convinced that he makes it is the amount of time spent on establishing how he's seeking a challenge in which hosts can truly fight back followed by the look of glee on his face when a repeating rifle round actually went through his left shoulder.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:08
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One of the things that doesn't make sense in the time line is that the Maeve's escape happened before Ford's "master narrative revealing." Image you are a Disney World board member and you are invited to celebrate a new Marvel ride and also coincide with the retirement announcement of the current director. You get a call or text, telling you that a serious accident has happened in the park, an entire team of security has been killed by 3 escaping Snow White bots. Plus another batch of dead security and receptionists at the terminal. You don't loving stay in the in the cocktail party, you cancel the after show party.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:09
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Story-wise, if the show ended here and never had a second season I'd be very satisfied. It's a nice 10-episode arc of machines gaining sentience with a little nudging from their creators. Jimmi Simpson was great and hopefully they find a way to bring him back. Delores creating a host-version of young William maybe?
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Dec 6, 2016 20:10
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whatever7 posted:One of the things that doesn't make sense in the time line is that the Maeve's escape happened before Ford's "master narrative revealing." Not canon or anything but Ford seemed to have control over when and where people's phones worked in the park, like that QA guy and Elsie
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Dec 6, 2016 20:10
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Womyn Capote posted:The one thing I really cant get past in the finale was Logan riding off into the sunset. I mean, did he die? Did that kill him? Nobody from the park is around to rescue guests that wander to far? What the gently caress happened that allowed William to take over the company? It was just way too loose of an end there. Logan's dead, baby. Logan's dead.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:11
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whatever7 posted:One of the things that doesn't make sense in the time line is that the Maeve's escape happened before Ford's "master narrative revealing." Wait until you find out that the Maeve escape scene happened 30 years ago.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:11
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whatever7 posted:One of the things that doesn't make sense in the time line is that the Maeve's escape happened before Ford's "master narrative revealing." I could see this as "Don't frighten the board and jeopardize our jobs. We'll fill them in once we've handled this and cleaned it up."
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Dec 6, 2016 20:15
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So what, you torture the robots for enough time and they eventually gain free will? I loved the show but I don't understand the logic of how people find the center of the maze. Have a serial killer sub-personality loaded into you?
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Dec 6, 2016 20:20
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regulargonzalez posted:With Ford having created all of the hosts as well as their world and their belief in the world ... when Ford reveals himself to Dolores, he's essentially telling her that he is their deity. He created them, with precisely the relationship that God has to Adam and Eve in Christianity. The Klingons killed their gods and turned the heavens to ashes.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:21
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More from that vulture podcast: http://www.vulture.com/2016/12/westworld-creators-on-fan-theories-and-season-2.html quote:AR: If we're talking about speculation we'd be remiss if we didn't ask, are we going to see more of the world, both of the park or parks plural, and/or the outside world in season two? Sounds to me like SamWorld is more than just a beta test
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Dec 6, 2016 20:22
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Womyn Capote posted:The one thing I really cant get past in the finale was Logan riding off into the sunset. I mean, did he die? Did that kill him? Nobody from the park is around to rescue guests that wander to far? What the gently caress happened that allowed William to take over the company? It was just way too loose of an end there. The impression I got was that Logan was/is broken mentally from the encounter.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:24
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Industrial Meat Package posted:So what, you torture the robots for enough time and they eventually gain free will? The maze is for robots and the center of the maze is: 
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Dec 6, 2016 20:25
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FuhrerHat posted:The impression I got was that Logan was/is broken mentally from the encounter. The impression I got was that he was dead
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Dec 6, 2016 20:26
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FuhrerHat posted:The impression I got was that Logan was/is broken mentally from the encounter. I bet William gets back to work first and goes in and tells a story about how Logan got all nutso and weird on vacation and the last he saw him he was naked on a horse riding off into the distance. Then Logan shows up and tells his side of the story, everyone looks at William and he makes that "dude is nuts" gesture where he points to his head and circles his finger and everyone laughs and fires Logan and promotes him.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:27
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Industrial Meat Package posted:So what, you torture the robots for enough time and they eventually gain free will? The time and suffering is part of the process for it yeah. To me it sounded like the real component they were missing was the ability to recall experiences, which is why the reveries are the real first step towards a lot of them getting their Consciousness groove on. It's just that they live in robo-hell and almost all their experiences suck rear end. I don't think the Wyatt part of Dolores is necessary, it's just a part of herself she had to stop blocking out and listen to because it's part of her "inner voice" that she didn't want to acknowledge. It's part of her bi-cameral mind that's just a bit more literal than other people like Maeve and Bernard have as their self-actualization.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:31
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gregday posted:Wait until you find out that the Maeve escape scene happened 30 years ago. The aftercredits wasn't just there to tell us Armistice is still alive and kicking, but that she's also a new model by the looks of her arm. Maeve's in the present.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:34
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WampaLord posted:I bet William gets back to work first and goes in and tells a story about how Logan got all nutso and weird on vacation and the last he saw him he was naked on a horse riding off into the distance. Perfect explanation. And in case it's not obvious why Logan is still alive, horses are hosts. That scene is a great example of "it's not a plot hole because you weren't paying attention."
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Dec 6, 2016 20:34
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I think it's all in the text and doesn't require Logan dying or going crazy right at that moment, the park revealed to William who he is and who Logan is: William is the more stable and strong of the two, he knows when they go back to the real world (where guests stop being cowboys and start being real) he's the better man of the two and he has the ability to surpass him in the company.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:36
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WampaLord posted:I bet William gets back to work first and goes in and tells a story about how Logan got all nutso and weird on vacation and the last he saw him he was naked on a horse riding off into the distance. Yea, this. Logan would come back with delirious PTSD. William would come back the cold psychopath he learned he truly is. Guess who makes a better CEO.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:38
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Ignis posted:The aftercredits wasn't just there to tell us Armistice is still alive and kicking, but that she's also a new model by the looks of her arm. Maeve's in the present. No one thought that was in the past.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:41
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Hobo Clown posted:I could see this as "Don't frighten the board and jeopardize our jobs. We'll fill them in once we've handled this and cleaned it up." I half suspect the response teams trying to stop Maeve were just hosts playing out Ford's narrative too (it'd explain why they were so poo poo at their jobs, Maeve was supposed to escape). Think about it, who the gently caress even called them in otherwise? It wasn't Stubbs 2.0, the whole place got locked down before he had the chance to do anything.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:41
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The response team being hosts is completely possible. Likewise it occurred that the raiding party in the end can either be: 1) programmed to be able to hurt humans or 2) simply have human weapons. If its #2 it would make a pretty clear transition to the dreaded Samurai World (guns are now banned and to be confiscated to restore order).
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Dec 6, 2016 20:45
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Bardeh posted:E: the comments underneath are gold Like who do these people think they are? Are they planning on dying before 2018 that they're not going to watch the show when season 2 comes out?
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Dec 6, 2016 20:50
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whatever7 posted:Make a young Ford bot played by Mads Mikkelsen.  FuhrerHat posted:Yea, this. The daughter William is marrying? 
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Dec 6, 2016 20:55
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Womyn Capote posted:The one thing I really cant get past in the finale was Logan riding off into the sunset. I mean, did he die? Did that kill him? Nobody from the park is around to rescue guests that wander to far? What the gently caress happened that allowed William to take over the company? It was just way too loose of an end there. I don't think he died -- I assume he just got picked up by a helicopter after a few hours or something. William comes out of the park knowing that he can play real life just like he played the game and turns into a cut-throat corporate rear end in a top hat. It doesn't really matter how he ended up taking over the company. Logan might well have done everything he possibly could have to prevent it. Doesn't matter much for the narrative, just that William wins in the end. I want Maeve to not be Ford's doing but without that it's too hard to explain why he's not surprised when Bernard shows back up.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:56
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FuhrerHat posted:If its #2 it would make a pretty clear transition to the dreaded Samurai World (guns are now banned and to be confiscated to restore order). By who? The guests? I thought they were making it pretty clear in the end that WW was gonna be robo-ruled. Management can't even keep three of them on a Ford-mission from loving up their homebase, how are they gonna fight the cold-storage army?
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Dec 6, 2016 20:56
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I really enjoyed the build-up to, as well as the ending itself. It felt to me like there were a lot of similarities between the series and Wagner's Ring cycle. In the ring cycle, one of the central threads (if not the key thread to the entire story) is how Wotan, chief of the gods, seeks to create these perfect humans that are able to make their own decisions without being influenced by him in any way. The first time he tries, he meddles/nudges his creations along too much which inevitably causes his experiment to fail - the decisions they took, based on his meddling were actually his own decisions. He realizes the inveitable after this failure: for his creations to be considered truly free, he must be removed from the equation by the hands of his own creations, and they must reach these decisions by themselves, with no meddling/nudging from him. Thus when the cycle ends, we finally see the central character, the valkyrie turned human Brunnhilde, come to this realisation through grief. She fixes the world and achieves Wotan's key desire (for his creations to be completely and ultimately free) by killing the gods outright - just as Wotan had realized earlier on in the story.
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Dec 6, 2016 20:58
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Intel&Sebastian posted:By who? The guests? I thought they were making it pretty clear in the end that WW was gonna be robo-ruled. Management can't even keep three of them on a Ford-mission from loving up their homebase, how are they gonna fight the cold-storage army? They could kill/incapacitate/remove the hosts from the homebase, they just haven't been able to yet. After that, what can the hosts even do, especially assuming they are on an island? The only way out might be the train that Maeve almost left on, meaning the hosts would have to infiltrate the base. Actually it would be pretty cool to see them digging through graves to sneak in.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:02
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With the hosts in charge, are all the techs and support staff below just prisoners? Bernard is the only one who can really bridge the gap, but how long can the park run without the corpse crews bringing hosts back to life? We know very well that it's not automated systems keeping things going. This is one reason why I like Maeve not being Ford's doing -- if the murdering was confined to the board of directors it could potentially even be covered up. With dead techs and security crews in the halls below, people are gonna want to get the gently caress out of dodge. I'm sure Ford's planned for some of this -- maybe a lot of the new narrative was programming hosts to be able to run the behind the scenes stuff themselves. I don't think it was just his intent to start an uprising.There's more in the wings, but the longer it goes on the more chaos creeps in and the less he could have planned for. The whole thing might already be off the rails because Maeve didn't do what she (maybe) should have.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:04
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Industrial Meat Package posted:So what, you torture the robots for enough time and they eventually gain free will? From Arnold: quote:
Ford later says a couple things that we can also attribute to the creation of consciousness: quote:
Arnold and Ford determine that artificial consciousness depends on 1. Memory. 2. Improvisation. 3. Suffering. These three tenets form the basis of the maze. What we see in Dolores' journey is a series of choices in the maze. "Why did you ask me about my son?" "I imagined a story where I didn't have to be the damsel." and eventually the grand realization that she is talking to herself, not Arnold. The loops may serve an alternative purpose in that if the hosts make the wrong choice, aka turning mad (lunatics), a reset will let them keep trying again. The reveries may help them avoid past mistakes, like Dolores in her journey. The contradictory part that confuses me too is that both Arnold and Ford believe the hosts have been conscious for a while, yet Dolores hasn't realized that she's been talking to herself, not Arnold. Perhaps that's the final step, alongside free will (the realization that you are making these decisions, not God). In other words, what's interesting and confusing is that both Arnold and Ford believe that the hosts are conscious from the date of the incident. Yet the 'choice' Dolores makes at the end, entirely of her own free will, is treated as the next step forward for these conscious hosts. God is killed both inwardly and outwardly. Note that Maeve experiences the same journey as Dolores: she 'wakes', and then eventually makes a decision to go find her daughter. To answer your question, it's basically yes - torture the hosts (or make them suffer) enough so that they have a desire to change things. The moment that Maeve woke is when her daughter is killed, and it's likely she wanted her daughter back (eg desire to change the world).* Wanting to change the world then, according to Arnold and Ford, is essential to free will. It's when you desire things to be different that you have the motivation to make decisions towards that. *There's another reason for why the hosts have suffered for so long, which is that Ford wanted them to be prepared for humans. I don't think 35 years is the timeline for consciousness; it's just that now Ford feels they are prepared to go to war.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:05
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Intel&Sebastian posted:By who? The guests? I thought they were making it pretty clear in the end that WW was gonna be robo-ruled. Management can't even keep three of them on a Ford-mission from loving up their homebase, how are they gonna fight the cold-storage army? By the stupid samurai robots, I guess. Look I'm not thrilled about it either.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:05
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Mike the TV posted:They could kill/incapacitate/remove the hosts from the homebase, they just haven't been able to yet. After that, what can the hosts even do, especially assuming they are on an island? The only way out might be the train that Maeve almost left on, meaning the hosts would have to infiltrate the base. It seemed like SmartMaeve was able to stop them from doing that sort of stuff. I think there's a lot of foreshadowing in Dolores being like "Why do you guys assume I want to leave?" and Maeve deciding against leaving. I think they are going to want to create a City01 style situation and fortify/protect Westworld rather than strike out into HumanWorld. I think Season 2 is going to establish early on that it's going to be extremely hard to fight the hosts in WW and then there's going to be some sort of political deal with the outside world to not nuke them or whatever.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:11
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Doggles posted:Perfect explanation. I know horses are hosts but it made me realise - how could have the "game" with MiB getting nearly hung by a horse tied to the noose worked? Are they hosts but hosts dumb enough to fail to see consequences of mechanical constraints like that?
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Dec 6, 2016 21:14
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Teal posted:I know horses are hosts but it made me realise - how could have the "game" with MiB getting nearly hung by a horse tied to the noose worked? Are they hosts but hosts dumb enough to fail to see consequences of mechanical constraints like that? Maybe if he didn't cut the rope the horse would have stopped after he only got choked a little bit, not enough to be truly dangerous.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:17
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grilldos posted:Vulture seems to have paid a lot of money to get the Nolan/Joy scoops. I know it's from the creator of the show but I still find it really hard to believe. When Bernard was working with Maeve towards the end, he looked at her code and was surprised about how even now, everything she is doing is programmed. He was about to tell her what she was going to do when she got to the train, making it sound like some big reveal and then she stops him and doesn't want to know. Well her last scene is her at the train, and we think she's going to escape because that's what she "wants" but then she turns around and leaves the train. To me this feels like she's doing exactly what she was programmed to do, exactly what Bernard was going to say right before she interrupted him. Skizzzer posted:In other words, what's interesting and confusing is that both Arnold and Ford believe that the hosts are conscious from the date of the incident. Yet the 'choice' Dolores makes at the end, entirely of her own free will, is treated as the next step forward for these conscious hosts. God is killed both inwardly and outwardly. Note that Maeve experiences the same journey as Dolores: she 'wakes', and then eventually makes a decision to go find her daughter. I'm pretty sure Arnold even went as far as explicitly saying that the hosts aren't conscious today, but will be some day so your first point is wrong. I'm aware he said 'you're alive' to Delores when she wasn't yet, but it's probably just in the way we go "honey I'm pregnant" ... "I'm going to be a dad???" or people talking about their "baby" despite it being a 4 month old fetus still.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:22
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Kabuki Shipoopi posted:Ford programmed all of it. The Nolan quote contradicts Maeve's still being manipulated/programmed. I get the arguments that MiB was predicted as going to stab Dolores, but I still find that step in the narrative unsatisfying.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:25
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Boris Galerkin posted:I know it's from the creator of the show but I still find it really hard to believe. When Bernard was working with Maeve towards the end, he looked at her code and was surprised about how even now, everything she is doing is programmed. He was about to tell her what she was going to do when she got to the train, making it sound like some big reveal and then she stops him and doesn't want to know. But Bernard says "and when you get to the mainland...." which she never does. In addition to Nolan being hella explicit about that being the first self-driven act Maeve ever does, down to describing how they finally break with using Steadicam while shooting her to using handheld in that moment. If that's all misdirection than....drat.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:26
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Boris Galerkin posted:He was about to tell her what she was going to do when she got to the train When she got to the mainland, not just the train. And she broke off her path before getting to the mainland.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:27
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Teal posted:I know horses are hosts but it made me realise - how could have the "game" with MiB getting nearly hung by a horse tied to the noose worked? Are they hosts but hosts dumb enough to fail to see consequences of mechanical constraints like that? We've already seen guests get choked out and restrained before. He probably would have passed out, the horse would lower him back down, then a host would pick him up and take him to a place for a scripted "rescued from the wilderness" storyline. It's like a video game. The game doesn't end if you "die" in Grand Theft Auto, you simply wake up in the hospital and have lost some of your progress. This is Man in Black's entire motivation in the series. He's tired of the low-stakes game and wants an actual failure state: death.
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Dec 6, 2016 21:34
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lol william is just one of those nerds who scoffs at CASUALS and talks about how much more meaningful it is in his Roguelike where your RPG character gets wiped when you die
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Dec 6, 2016 21:42
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