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they do have "special knowledge," also known as "personal experience," with racial oppression. and TNC presents one of the clearer arguments for the rationale behind, and potential implementations of, reparations. so by claiming he exemplifies "revenge and resentment" youre basically waving off the whole concept of reparations. please dont pretend you didnt say things you said. its right there, i can go back and read it. paranoid randroid fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Dec 6, 2016 |
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Dec 6, 2016 23:43
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I said what I meant and I meant what I said. I'm sorry we disagree. e. Wow, rude.
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Dec 6, 2016 23:48
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and im sorry youre a dumbass
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Dec 6, 2016 23:48
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Trump Tutelage what do you think of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_Graves_Protection_and_Repatriation_Act
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Dec 6, 2016 23:55
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Neurolimal posted:I'd like to hear your idea of what the thought process of someone who doesn't like socialism or policies pertaining to it, but becomes really interested in Bernie Sanders. Just write out what you think is going through this hypothetical person's head. I'm not saying they "didn't like it". I'm saying they're basically former one issue voters who adopted the rest of his platform through osmosis and now claim that young white dudes are the vanguard of the socialism that are being held back by the politics of minorities. Go back and look at all of the media surrounding Bernies early campaign and I'm sure you can figure out which issue I'm talking about. 
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Dec 6, 2016 23:55
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the trump tutelage posted:As it's currently practiced (that is, out in the real world and not in sterile academic tracts), idpol is a politics of resentment and revenge. For example, when discussing reparations, workable policy proposals are necessarily yoked with collective guilt, collective shame and collective punishment (see: Ta-Nehisi Coates). It cannot simply be about materially improving the lives of black Americans going forward; it must also be about balancing the cosmic scales of justice. It's Utopian. This essentializing and bigoted thinking is permitted within idpol because the chimeric Eternal Oppressor cannot be maligned enough. The tarring of 'white men' as being uniquely evil because of what american minorities and natives experienced at the hands of european settlers is an idea that infuriates any person who has any sort of grasp on where the african slaves came from in africa, or the origins of the word slave. African slaves were sold off by rival tribes after wars, since the europeans offered a good price for them. Looking at modern tribal tensions in africa, and all the genocides and wars, it is easy to see how they might decide to capture all their rivals and sell them off. The word Slave is in fact the same as Slav, and referred to eastern european slaves, many of which were brought to Muslim spain. The idea that their experiences were somehow different than the opression of the irish, or the slavery of the slavic peoples, is maddening to people who know about history.
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Dec 6, 2016 23:56
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Schizotek posted:I'm not saying they "didn't like it". I'm saying they're basically former one issue voters who adopted the rest of his platform through osmosis and now claim that young white dudes are the vanguard of the socialism that are being held back by the politics of minorities. Go back and look at all of the media surrounding Bernies early campaign and I'm sure you can figure out which issue I'm talking about. Well then let that be a major plank of the democrats platform. Along with freeing all the drug offenders.
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Dec 6, 2016 23:57
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Pharohman777 posted:The tarring of 'white men' as being uniquely evil because of what american minorities and natives experienced at the hands of european settlers is an idea that infuriates any person who has any sort of grasp on where the african slaves came from in africa, or the origins of the word slave. Holy gently caress, I didn't think there'd be a post as blatant as this.
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Dec 6, 2016 23:59
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Pharohman777 posted:The idea that their experiences were somehow different than the opression of the irish, or the slavery of the slavic peoples, is maddening to people who know about history. [extremely southie voice] YANNO DERE WAS IRISH SLAVES TOO
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Dec 7, 2016 00:00
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So people know, I literally am Irish and a student of Irish history with quite a bit of knowledge of American history too and I have to say the oppression of the Irish in Ireland or America really is categorically different from the oppression of Black people in America.
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Dec 7, 2016 00:03
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khwarezm posted:Trump Tutelage what do you think of this: But I'm not opposed to reparations except in the sense of them being a way to make up for the past, after which everything will be settled. Affirmative action, for example, is a good thing. Increased funding for early childhood education in poorer communities is a good thing. Anyway, let's not derail this thread with reparations chat.
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Dec 7, 2016 00:03
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khwarezm posted:Holy gently caress, I didn't think there'd be a post as blatant as this. I'm not surprised by anything here anymore.
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Dec 7, 2016 00:05
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Pharohman777 posted:The tarring of 'white men' as being uniquely evil because of what american minorities and natives experienced at the hands of european settlers is an idea that infuriates any person who has any sort of grasp on where the african slaves came from in africa, or the origins of the word slave. The Irish were indentered servants not slaves you gently caress, and they got their freedom alot sooner then the blacks with the added bonus of then not being subject tosharecropping or convict labor, or ethnic cleansing.
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Dec 7, 2016 00:11
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Neurolimal posted:I'd like to hear your idea of what the thought process of someone who doesn't like socialism or policies pertaining to it, but becomes really interested in Bernie Sanders. Just write out what you think is going through this hypothetical person's head. Eh, this actually isn't that hard to answer. Some people supported him because he was perceived as being "anti-establishment". Basically, some of the same people who voted for Ron Paul. I don't think they made up a very large portion of his voters, but they did exist.
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Dec 7, 2016 00:12
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paranoid randroid posted:they do have "special knowledge," also known as "personal experience," with racial oppression. and TNC presents one of the clearer arguments for the rationale behind, and potential implementations of, reparations. so by claiming he exemplifies "revenge and resentment" youre basically waving off the whole concept of reparations. Anything that is only subjectively true, given lived experience as a particular minority, is not going to win an election. Check a dictionary for confirmation if you doubt this. Anything whose only connection to reality is in the past, or in impossible futures, is about adopting postures, not solving problems. And anyone who doesn't care about solving problems is not part of the solution; they are the other thing. Which shouldn't stop anyone solving the problem, and simultaneously implementing reparations as well. It's just that those 'reparations' are going to be cultural stuff like building a museum or three. Not anything on the trillion-dollar scale required to make a serious start on uprooting the economic foundation of contemporary racism.
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Dec 7, 2016 00:14
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Crowsbeak posted:Well then let that be a major plank of the democrats platform. Along with freeing all the drug offenders. I agree. Keep in mind that not only did I vote for Bernie, but actively campaigned for him. But by and large all of the other people I know of who weren't actively campaigning but supported Bernie were pretty firmly in the "college stoner" demographic and most of them either were voting for the first time in their lives or (more often) never even bothered to do that. Most of the political orgs I've joined since moving and being in uni this semester kinda report the same thing. Pretty much everyone voted (and actually voted) Bernie, but the bulk of the electorate aren't active campaigners, and were politically apathetic up until Bernie lost, and then after complaining for a week went back to being politically apathetic except to whine about $hillary. I actually wore  this shirt, and still do on occasion. But I'm not gonna pretend I didn't find the weird obsessive focus on Bernie's weed policy by a bunch of his supporters to be a tad grating and myopic.
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Dec 7, 2016 00:24
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radmonger posted:Anything that is only subjectively true, given lived experience as a particular minority, is not going to win an election. Check a dictionary for confirmation if you doubt this. Ah, yes, the continued atrocities against the AfAm community are subjective and not based in fact. White identity politics just won an election friend, so...
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Dec 7, 2016 00:24
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emdash posted:and in 2016 58% want to repeal the ACA and replace it with "a federally funded healthcare program providing insurance for all Americans" Actually, my numbers go to 2016, I just focused on 2007 and 2010 to show how drastically the popularity drops when people start actually trying to put that survey question into practice. "Federally funded healthcare system" can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. It's a perfect example of why polling doesn't translate to policy.
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Dec 7, 2016 00:25
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If identity politics had any redeeming value, so would this thread. But here we are and look at what you've done.
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Dec 7, 2016 00:34
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Pharohman777 posted:The tarring of 'white men' as being uniquely evil because of what american minorities and natives experienced at the hands of european settlers is an idea that infuriates any person who has any sort of grasp on where the african slaves came from in africa, or the origins of the word slave. I personally found it odd that a lot of African liberation activists chose to convert to islam as a response to segregation/slavery in American. Slavery under the Arabs was significantly more brutal along with the fact that castration was the norm for an estimated 80% of slaves. "The Caliphate in Baghdad at the beginning of the 10th Century had 7,000 black eunuchs and 4,000 white eunuchs in his palace."[130] The Arab slave trade typically dealt in the sale of castrated male slaves. Black boys at the age of eight to twelve had their scrotum and penis completely amputated. Around 9 out of 10 bled to death[citation needed] during the procedure, but the high price brought by eunuchs on the market made the practice profitable. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castration#Slave_trade That said the nation of Islam as a religion is incredibly different from its original iterations.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:06
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khwarezm posted:So people know, I literally am Irish and a student of Irish history with quite a bit of knowledge of American history too and I have to say the oppression of the Irish in Ireland or America really is categorically different from the oppression of Black people in America. Yep, and the oppression of poles/much of eastern europe during ww2 is worse than any oppression in segregation America. If you go by lives lost as a % of population. But cool make it a competition for most oppressed labels, that is literally what idpol is about.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:09
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jfood posted:If identity politics had any redeeming value, so would this thread. Being sabotaged and attacked isn't the victim's fault.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:12
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stone cold posted:White identity politics just won an election friend, so... Like, what happens when white people "wake up" and "own their whiteness", only instead of being ashamed of their now-acknowledged privilege, they decide that it's valuable and worth preserving? Does it just expect The Oppressor to be superhumanly ethical and self-sacrificing?
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Dec 7, 2016 01:21
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Sethex posted:Yep, and the oppression of poles/much of eastern europe during ww2 is worse than any oppression in segregation America. I think you know full well when people post the kind of garbage that Pharaohman did its invariably whataboutist jackassary to try and get minority groups to shut up and stop voicing grievances that make white people squirm. But thank you Sethex, you really are showing up how above idpol you are by perfectly playing into the put-upon white person idpol that starts with 'why don't we ever hear about Irish slaves?!'
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Dec 7, 2016 01:27
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Pharohman777 posted:The tarring of 'white men' as being uniquely evil because of what american minorities and natives experienced at the hands of european settlers is an idea that infuriates any person who has any sort of grasp on where the african slaves came from in africa, or the origins of the word slave. i cant believe this thread could actually get worse after effectronica was probated like this is just straight up 19th century slavery apologia. holy poo poo Calibanibal fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 01:30
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khwarezm posted:I think you know full well when people post the kind of garbage that Pharaohman did its invariably whataboutist jackassary to try and get minority groups to shut up and stop voicing grievances that make white people squirm. I take issue with grouping whites into a single category in the dumb narrative adopted by the American left. It is dumb and i suspect it is also empowering the alt right. I don't think blacks should ever 'move past' / get over slavery or the issues that prevent justice for their demographic. I'm responding to the point you sought to make, but it is cute that we now collectively view idpol as an insult, I guess progress is being made.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:40
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Sethex posted:I take issue with grouping whites into a single category in the dumb narrative adopted by the American left.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:46
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Sethex posted:I personally found it odd that a lot of African liberation activists chose to convert to islam as a response to segregation/slavery in American. Lmao what is going on in this thread 
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Dec 7, 2016 01:47
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Sethex posted:I take issue with grouping whites into a single category in the dumb narrative adopted by the American left. White people exist as a collective category in the sense that they aren't beholden to many of the limitations that racial minorities have to face in the west. 'White privilege', even if most people hate admitting it, is a real thing that exists. And no, that doesn't mean that poor white people don't face a lot of crushing problems, or that their plight hasn't gotten worse in recent years. In the meantime you seem to be quick to condescend to black people who adopted Islam and bark at me for pointing out an obvious dog-whistle when it appears. You do a good job represented the sort of person that prompted me to make this thread honestly. I'm not collectively using Idpol as an insult, but I think it would be pretty drat obvious that not all identity politics is equally valid, you have said as much comparing black nationalism to white nationalism in America. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 01:53
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khwarezm posted:White people exist as a collective category in the sense that they aren't beholden to many of the limitations that racial minorities have to face in the west. 'White privilege', even if most people hate admitting it, is a real thing that exists.
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Dec 7, 2016 01:56
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the trump tutelage posted:Can you define a coherent category "white people" that doesn't also describe some other, non-white people? Even if he can't does it mean that white people as a category doesn't exist?
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Dec 7, 2016 02:05
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khwarezm posted:
I said black nationalism was especially valid and explained why better than anything you have cared to mention, in my comparison I even claimed that white nationalism/pride is ridiculous. So like, why is the crux of your argument largely a misrepresentation of someone's views followed by claiming that sinister reactionary views lie beneath any opinion you don't agree with? Does it get repetitive?
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Dec 7, 2016 02:13
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the trump tutelage posted:Like, what happens when white people "wake up" and "own their whiteness", only instead of being ashamed of their now-acknowledged privilege, they decide that it's valuable and worth preserving? Does it just expect The Oppressor to be superhumanly ethical and self-sacrificing? The answer is that they elect Slobodan Milosevic.
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Dec 7, 2016 02:15
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Sethex posted:I said black nationalism was especially valid and explained why better than anything you have cared to mention, in my comparison I even claimed that white nationalism/pride is ridiculous. I'm not misrepresenting your views, I was pointing out that you seem to agree with me that different identity politics, in this case Black nationalism compared to White nationalism, aren't equally valid or destructive.
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Dec 7, 2016 02:17
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Pedro De Heredia posted:At this point I'm not even sure if you're trying to say Trump is a bad candidate or a good one. Trump is nowhere near as bad a candidate (for a US general election) as "Hillary lost to a cheeto" implies.
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Dec 7, 2016 04:34
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blackguy32 posted:Even if he can't does it mean that white people as a category doesn't exist?
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Dec 7, 2016 05:20
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khwarezm posted:I'm not misrepresenting your views, I was pointing out that you seem to agree with me that different identity politics, in this case Black nationalism compared to White nationalism, aren't equally valid or destructive. Well I agree that they aren't identical. one of the most annoying things about American culture to me (not that it is exclusive to America) is the false equivocation of complicated things that probably is a result of how the 2 party system has framed america's culture. My issue largely stems from the gross oversimplification that idpol often falls on and the venomous culture that has sprouted from those simplifications. should idpol exist in some form? (if we are to see it as any discourse that seeks to describe the feature and challenges of groups in a pluralistic society) For me that's fine, but we have gone over a lot of problems with the way the US culture has handled that discourse, and I'm not sure who you can really blame for that with any specificity. Academics? News media? poo poo tier bloggers? Millennials? Boomers? I don't really know. Sethex fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Dec 7, 2016 |
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Dec 7, 2016 05:38
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stone cold posted:Ah, yes, the continued atrocities against the AfAm community are subjective and not based in fact. If that's the way you personally feel, I'd have to check the rota to see if it is my term to give you the 101. Namely, how the holy gently caress could you possibly think the oppression of African Americans in the contemporary USA is not something objectively measurable? quote:White identity politics just won an election friend, so... Don't call it white identity politics, call it majority identity politics. That may help keep focus on the relevant point.
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Dec 7, 2016 08:06
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radmonger posted:
When it be objectively different when whites are no longer a majority, but a plurality?
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Dec 7, 2016 08:10
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James Garfield posted:Trump is nowhere near as bad a candidate (for a US general election) as "Hillary lost to a cheeto" implies. I think the fact that his favorability is still total garbage is good evidence that he *was* a bad candidate. It just turns out that, insanely, he was the least bad one.
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