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Senor Dog posted:How does this treaty work, exactly? Greece, Italy, etc. by accident of location have to handle the inflow of refugees so Austria, Hungary, etc. can just hang out and have fun parties? Do Austria, Hungary, etc. pay Greece for handling the border operations that they no longer need to do? the EU could have solved this by saying "alright you contain and heal this catastrophy, just invoice us the costs because we are all in this together in european solidarity" haha made my self laugh
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Dec 8, 2016 14:20
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Senor Dog posted:How does this treaty work, exactly? Greece, Italy, etc. by accident of location have to handle the inflow of refugees so Austria, Hungary, etc. can just hang out and have fun parties? Do Austria, Hungary, etc. pay Greece for handling the border operations that they no longer need to do? It is a policy that was set up in 1990, around the breakup of the Soviet Union. It was designed with the migrations that resulted from that in mind. It absolutely does not work in a modern context, where a small country with severe economic issues like Greece is the gateway state.
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Dec 8, 2016 14:25
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Senor Dog posted:How does this treaty work, exactly? Greece, Italy, etc. by accident of location have to handle the inflow of refugees so Austria, Hungary, etc. can just hang out and have fun parties? Do Austria, Hungary, etc. pay Greece for handling the border operations that they no longer need to do? The rational is that the country which did let a refugee enter the Schengen room by not properly protecting it's border has to care for him. This was implemented to protect against the moral hazard of countries not giving a gently caress about protecting their border because the refugees will just travel to other countries, who provide more benefits. It's also an effective protection against a race to the bottom on refugee treatment, as the refugees can not pick the country they want to stay. It's a great policy and the only issue is that there are certain problems with the enforcement of sea borders.
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Dec 8, 2016 15:03
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I have an excellent idea to let Greece be in full conformity with the Dublin. Hear me out. Greece just needs to build a lot of refugee camps to host all these people. The camps have to be in top-notch conditions for humanitarian reasons. That's going to boost the Greek economy a lot. Now there's the question of where Greece will find the money to fund all that, and this is where my magical genius idea comes in: they are allowed to just print it. Print it print it print it. As an addendum to this magical idea they are also allowed to send their special operation teams to execute anyone in the Eurogroup or Troika who would dissent. In fact the plan is worth it just for that alone. This way we solve the refugee problem as they get taken care of in acceptable conditions; we solve the Greek problems thanks to a very nice stimulus package, and we solve European competitiveness problems by weakening the euro, boosting our export potential considerably, and we solve the long-standing EU problems by getting rid of all the horrible austerians.
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Dec 8, 2016 15:16
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Senor Dog posted:How does this treaty work, exactly? Greece, Italy, etc. by accident of location have to handle the inflow of refugees so Austria, Hungary, etc. can just hang out and have fun parties? Pretty much and its the root of all the EU's problems with immigration. The original Dublin convention back in the 90's was conceived back in a time when all of the EU didn't have carrier sanctions (the thing that makes it impossible for refugees to enter the EU by plane and boat). It was seeking to address a very real problem where refugees denied in one country could just apply in another EU state, over and over again. However, in 2002 the EU ratified a common system on carrier sanctions, effectively ending legal ways of entering the EU without the crossing the external border on foot. As you cannot get a refugee visa without applying for asylum, which you now would have to do at the country of your entry, such as Bulgaria back then or Greece today, this created an impossible situation wherein the only way to legally apply for asylum in the inner EU countries was by smuggling yourself across the border. Those member states could then not contest the refugees right as in they were judicially the first country of arrival despite that being objectively untrue. This is still the state of affairs today and it's a god drat mess.
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Dec 8, 2016 15:18
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Senor Dog posted:How does this treaty work, exactly? Greece, Italy, etc. by accident of location have to handle the inflow of refugees so Austria, Hungary, etc. can just hang out and have fun parties? Do Austria, Hungary, etc. pay Greece for handling the border operations that they no longer need to do? You have to consider that before the Schengen agreement, every nation had its own protected borders and refugees couldn't move around just the same. The Dublin agreement is supposed to preserve this status quo while still allowing EU citizens to move freely without borders within the Schengen area. The most recent revision of the agreement from 2013 basically says that every country can do with refugees as they like(hence Germany taking in the Syrians in 2015), but if they want to and if they can prove a point of entry (through, for example, the fingerprinting system), they can demand the country of entrance to take them back. The 2013 revision was a huge step towards a more sane system, but for now it's probably as far as we can go. Especially eastern Europe is blocking any attempts of further unfucking. (Interestingly, since border controls had completely collapsed in 2015 it may not have been possible for Germany to send most of the people back to Greece, since Germany couldn't have proven the point of entry. The refugees themselves are not legally required to register in the first country they enter, so they didn't brake any laws or disqualify themselves from German asylum. Rule of law is weird like that.)
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Dec 8, 2016 15:24
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GaussianCopula posted:The rational is that the country which did let a refugee enter the Schengen room by not properly protecting it's border has to care for him. This was implemented to protect against the moral hazard of countries not giving a gently caress about protecting their border because the refugees will just travel to other countries, who provide more benefits. It's also an effective protection against a race to the bottom on refugee treatment, as the refugees can not pick the country they want to stay. Yeah, the moral hazard of overburdening member states on the border by forcing them to hold all comers. Jesus christ man, it's not Greece's fault that people want to flee war and starvation. Your suggestion is what, start singking boats full of women and children, shoot anyone who survives? Do basic human rights mean anything to you? If you wanna live in a political union with other countries, that means sharing the burdens that disproportionately affect some members over others. If you don't then cool, but then neither does Greece or Italy have any obligation to stop people from going north. Enjoy your FYGM, cuz it's gonna end the Union.
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Dec 8, 2016 15:28
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throw to first drat IT posted:Immigrants do use social media and plan their routes. If they think that they'll get stuck to Greece and that the place is such shithole that dodging bombs in Aleppo is preferable to that, they'll take Italian route instead. http://frontex.europa.eu/trends-and-routes/migratory-routes-map/ The Italian route is mainly taken by people from Afrika and not from the ME ie has little to do with the Syrian situation. Off the Greece route, ~50% are Syrians, rest Afghan or Iraqis.
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Dec 8, 2016 15:39
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GaussianCopula posted:The rational is that the country which did let a refugee enter the Schengen room by not properly protecting it's border has to care for him. This was implemented to protect against the moral hazard of countries not giving a gently caress about protecting their border because the refugees will just travel to other countries, who provide more benefits. It's also an effective protection against a race to the bottom on refugee treatment, as the refugees can not pick the country they want to stay. What do you mean by "problems with the enforcement of sea borders"? Just that they aren't protected enough or that countries with them are disproportionately burdened? Do you think those being shielded from the refugee crisis have an obligation to pay for that service?
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Dec 8, 2016 15:43
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Senor Dog posted:What do you mean by "problems with the enforcement of sea borders"? Just that they aren't protected enough or that countries with them are disproportionately burdened? Do you think those being shielded from the refugee crisis have an obligation to pay for that service? It seems like it is much harder to enforce a sea border, given that the Visegrad countries were able to effectively enforce their land borders (there was some leakage but that's negligible). I think you have to compare it to the pre-Schengen/Dublin time. At that time Greece/Italy would have been stuck with the refugees too, because the internal borders were still enforced. The Dublin rules just kept this status quo, which is as old as nation states.
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Dec 8, 2016 15:54
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Look guys if Austria can properly patrol it's 300 km land border with Hungary, then Greece and Italy should be able to cover their respectively 500 thousand km of territorial waters too.
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Dec 8, 2016 16:31
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GaussianCopula posted:The rational is that the country which did let a refugee enter the Schengen room by not properly protecting it's border has to care for him. This was implemented to protect against the moral hazard of countries not giving a gently caress about protecting their border because the refugees will just travel to other countries, who provide more benefits. It's also an effective protection against a race to the bottom on refugee treatment, as the refugees can not pick the country they want to stay. Counterpoint: refugees still picked the country they wanted to stay in, they just made sure not to get fingerprinted anywhere else. GaussianCopula posted:It's a great policy for Germany FTFY Anyway, I looked up the Commission's actual declaration (Politico cannot always be trusted to interpret EU documents correctly), and this is what they had to say: (bolding mine) quote:"Our comprehensive European approach on migration is showing positive results. We can see this in the continued implementation of the EU-Turkey Statement and the dramatic decrease in the number of irregular migrants arriving in Greece. We also see it in the progress made by the Greek authorities in rectifying deficiencies in the country's asylum system, which has allowed us to recommend the gradual resumption of Dublin transfers to Greece as of 15 March 2017. This will provide further disincentives against irregular entry and secondary movements, and is an important step for the return to a normally functionally Dublin and Schengen system." In other words, the EU is not suddenly going to dump everything on Greece again, or at least right away. Also, Commission Recommendations are non-binding.
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Dec 8, 2016 16:36
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GaussianCopula posted:It seems like it is much harder to enforce a sea border No poo poo it's much harder you imbecile.
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Dec 8, 2016 16:42
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Proving that if nothing else, I'm in tune with our local racists when I predict an armed anti-refugee blockade, a Danish politician suggested late last night that we should start shooting refugee boats that enter European territorial waters. He was pretty quick to retract it though, saying that in hindsight his statements could have been misunderstood, but I'm guessing this won't be the last time that suggestion comes up.
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Dec 8, 2016 17:08
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There has to be some bleak, inhospitable, soul-crushingly terrible island you could dump all of the refugees on as a warning like Australia does. Like England, for example.
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Dec 8, 2016 17:35
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Dunno what there's to misunderstand really. Fascists would much prefer if these people had a few more 'accidents' while heading over. And people like GC here probably wouldn't mind either so long as he can continue being oblivious. Out of sight, out of mind, eh GC?
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Dec 8, 2016 17:36
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Just take them back and keep the skilled ones. Assuming there are any among them.
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Dec 8, 2016 17:41
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jonnypeh posted:Just take them back and keep the skilled ones. Who will take them back? Turkey? Syria? Afganistan?
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Dec 8, 2016 17:50
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The thing about GC that most people don't seem to understand is that he is a coldblooded sociopath (and I don't mean this as an insult, just as a factual statement). You can argue with him about policy just fine, but he doesn't really care about people or things that don't affect him personally. These types of arguments are a total waste of time.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:01
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Mozi posted:There has to be some bleak, inhospitable, soul-crushingly terrible island you could dump all of the refugees on as a warning like Australia does.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:05
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A Buttery Pastry posted:England is not an island not with that attitude
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Dec 8, 2016 18:15
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A Buttery Pastry posted:England is not an island We're going to rebuild the wall
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Dec 8, 2016 18:28
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Was reading a (not hugely interesting) article on the fallout of the Italian referendum, and stumbled across this little gem: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/read-matteo-renzis-resignation-speech-full-i-am-different-i-lost-i-say-it-loudly-1594890 quote:In his speech, he offered his resignation and reflected on the referendum result and his 1,017 days in power (as of today, 5 December), which make his government the fourth-longest lasting in the 63 governments that have ruled Italy since the Second World War.
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Dec 8, 2016 18:55
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Pluskut Tukker posted:In other words, the EU is not suddenly going to dump everything on Greece again, or at least right away. Also, Commission Recommendations are non-binding. You thought that the Commission was advocating to return all refugees that came last year to Greece. That would have been fun ... This is basically the EC batting down the hatches in case Turkey does eventually cancel the deal, making sure that all refugees will know that they can only apply for asylum in Greece, which should keep most of them on in Turkey, where it's not that much worse than in Greece if you are not accused of plotting the overthrow of Sultan Erdogan.
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Dec 8, 2016 19:32
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A Buttery Pastry posted:England is not an island Great Britain, pardon me!
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Dec 8, 2016 19:35
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A Buttery Pastry posted:England is not an island No man is.
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Dec 8, 2016 19:44
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jonnypeh posted:Just take them back and keep the skilled ones. Assuming there are any among them. Iraqis arriving to Finland were literally illiterate. They will surely quickly find employment in society that has automated away low-skill jobs because
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Dec 8, 2016 19:50
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Mozi posted:Great Britain, pardon me! Don't apologize. England is an island.
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Dec 8, 2016 19:57
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You think the French right's got its poo poo together, lining up behind Fillon, and then this happens, and you remember you have the dumbest political class in Europe. https://twitter.com/MAlliotMarie/status/806930194934140928 (that's former Defense minister from way way back Michèle Alliot-Marie announcing she's running too, for some reason)
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Dec 8, 2016 20:24
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ElNarez posted:You think the French right's got its poo poo together, lining up behind Fillon, and then this happens, and you remember you have the dumbest political class in Europe. Edit: and i bet some of you believed the candidates excess was purely far left. I have like 25+ extra  candidates and i can't find picture for half of them. It includes at least one real-tv candidate.
Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 20:47
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Yeah but NDA was a known quantity, and he hasn't done anything of note ever beyond leaving the UMP. MAM has been a somewhat high-ranking LR-UMP-RPR loyalist for a good while. There's a slight difference.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:04
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ElNarez posted:Yeah but NDA was a known quantity, and he hasn't done anything of note ever beyond leaving the UMP. MAM has been a somewhat high-ranking LR-UMP-RPR loyalist for a good while. There's a slight difference. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 21:07
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Toplowtech posted:Well technically two if you count Henri Guaino because Sarkozist gonna Sarkozy. Because they "got something to say". Probably something really racist and dumb. Let's be fair: with Guaino, it's more likely to be something homophobic.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:31
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big scary monsters posted:No man is. No, Man is.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:35
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throw to first drat IT posted:Iraqis arriving to Finland were literally illiterate. They will surely quickly find employment in society that has automated away low-skill jobs because Ya the people citing the studies that said immigration helps the economy seem to have forgotten that literally no western country needs low skill labor anymore. Just the opposite in fact and that trend is only accelerating. Basically, as I said years ago, the left should have focused on the moral argument instead of lying about the economic benefits (there are none). It's no shocker workers are fleeing the left in droves exactly like what people like me said would happen.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:18
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ElNarez posted:You think the French right's got its poo poo together, lining up behind Fillon, and then this happens, and you remember you have the dumbest political class in Europe. ImWithHer
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Dec 9, 2016 08:51
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This is cute. https://twitter.com/AEJKhalil/status/807129657590116353
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Dec 9, 2016 10:14
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She's not a Muslim (the kicker does look "ethnic" for what it's worth [i.e. nothing]), but it's nice of you to highlight how some people try to portray random acts as islamophobia
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Dec 9, 2016 13:06
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Geriatric Pirate posted:She's not a Muslim (the kicker does look "ethnic" for what it's worth [i.e. nothing]), but it's nice of you to highlight how some people try to portray random acts as islamophobia I'll take your word for it.
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Dec 9, 2016 13:11
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I fail to see why her not being a Muslim means anything about the prevalence of islamophobia when we live in the same world where racists attacked a Buddhist monk because they thought he was a Muslim..
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Dec 9, 2016 13:30
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