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my dad posted:You're overreacting somewhat. 8% of total population is less than what a lot of countries lost in WW2. It's extremely hosed up and traumatizing (ask me about my family's experience as subhumans in Naziland Oh, I know, I'm not saying we're about to go blind with rage and fire up the bioweapons labs for some good old fashioned genocide. I'm saying it's not the type of thing you get over in a couple decades like Americans have with Pearl Harbor. To use the WWII example, we're 3 generations on and people still hold some serious grudges over it, and probably will for another few generations. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 16:44
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Crazycryodude posted:Oh, I know, I'm not saying we're about to go blind with rage and fire up the bioweapons labs for some good old fashioned genocide. I'm saying it's not the type of thing you get over in a couple decades like Americans have with Pearl Harbor. To use the WWII example, we're 3 generations on and people still hold some serious grudges over it, and probably will for another few generations. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Basically this. It's been almost a hundred years since the second world war, and we still haven't forgotten. Also, think about the scars left by the nuclear detonations on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That's still something we talk about, and that was just two cities. I have no idea how many briefcase nukes nweis is talking about here, but from what it sounds, it was probably more than just a couple. And that's not just attacks on specific countries anymore. They bombed the homeland of all humankind. That's kind of a big deal for ALL humans. The resentment will be stewing for a while, and while it may not turn all people everywhere into horrible, Bulrathi-shanking turbo-racists, it'll still probably stir up enough hate that those kinds of people won't be too uncommon.
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Dec 8, 2016 17:50
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I feel like what we're looking at here in the thread is a difference between individualistic and collectivistic mindsets. I said 50 years because by that point, most of the Bulrathi you'd meet around Earth weren't the ones who did it: they were born after the war. That's the individualistic mindset: you judge someone on their individual actions. Stormgear, you're right that the Bulrathi strike on Earth will still be remembered, but when you talk about resentment, you're slipping into a collectivistic mindset (always a mistake). Resentment against whom? The Bulrathi race in general? Yeah, there'll always be some racists around -- and here, "racist" is actually an accurate term, unlike when it's used for people who don't like other human beings based on ethnicity. White, black, whatever, we're all still the same race -- human. (Though I understand why people say "racist" instead of "ethnicicist" -- even though "ethnicicist" would technically be the right word, it's such a mouthful that I'd look for any other word to use instead.) But getting back to the main point: if I, an American of about 40 years old, go to Japan and meet a survivor of the Hiroshima bombings, do you think he's going to resent me? Or will he resent what my country did, but be able to see me as an individual who was born decades after the bombings and had nothing personally to do with it? That's what I'm claiming is going to happen in the Human Republic of nweismuller's LP. The Bulrathi Empire will be held in about the same regard as Nazi Germany, or Mao's Cultural Revolution: mass murderers whose name is routinely cursed. But individual Bulrathi, especially ones who were born after the war (or who were children while it all went down, and were too young to have been able to vote or whatever the Bulrathi do to influence their political leaders), won't be seen in the same mental category. There'll be lingering resentment, but most people will make a conscious effort to be fair in dealing with the individual in front of them, and to separate their hatred for the Bulrathi Empire (now thankfully consigned to the ashbin of history) from that individual bear in front of them, who just wants to buy a hamburger or four.
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Dec 9, 2016 01:20
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The real truth is that the Bulrathi just promised to make Earth Great Again and let things escalate from there.
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Dec 9, 2016 01:32
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To elaborate on Tax Refund's comment- I think somebody who's read through my previous LPs can probably note a strong thread of respect for the concept of individualism. The societies I try to depict are ones that are committed to the idea that a man (or bear, or elf, or terrifying bug-thing) should be judged on his own actions and character rather than by things he had no choice in. And, for that matter, it's rather questionable to hold members of the civilian population responsible for the actions of their rulers, in that rulers are frequently only weakly constrained by the ruled and any individual person being ruled may not be morally responsible for anything whatsoever. E: The Klackons were a major challenge to Humanity in my first MoO2 LP precisely because they presented a case where individualism was nearly meaningless, and their lack of it rendered them a threat to other species. nweismuller fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Dec 9, 2016 |
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Dec 9, 2016 01:35
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I thought how the Klackon issue was handled in that LP was one of the most interesting things I've seen in LPs. It could have easily been a major plot in a good space opera. e. vvv yes 
POOL IS CLOSED fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Dec 9, 2016 |
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Dec 9, 2016 01:41
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:Klaxon Unless you mean to suggest that they were loud sirens, I believe you mean 'Klackon'.
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Dec 9, 2016 01:44
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What we obviously need is Hug-A-Bug Day. (Care for a Bear Day?)
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Dec 9, 2016 01:56
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Crazycryodude posted:What we obviously need is Hug-A-Bug Day. (Care for a Bear Day?) Build-a-Bulrathi Workshop
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Dec 9, 2016 02:09
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nweismuller posted:To elaborate on Tax Refund's comment- I think somebody who's read through my previous LPs can probably note a strong thread of respect for the concept of individualism. The societies I try to depict are ones that are committed to the idea that a man (or bear, or elf, or terrifying bug-thing) should be judged on his own actions and character rather than by things he had no choice in. And, for that matter, it's rather questionable to hold members of the civilian population responsible for the actions of their rulers, in that rulers are frequently only weakly constrained by the ruled and any individual person being ruled may not be morally responsible for anything whatsoever. On the other hand, doesn't it make sense to hold a society responsible for the sort of leaders it produces? Bulrathi society has a far more militaristic zeitgeist than humanity, and is therefore going to produce on average more militaristic leaders. It's a two way street: leaders can direct a society and how it develops, but simultaneously they're influenced by society around them. I understand that Bulra isn't a democracy that directly chooses its leaders, but we haven't heard that much about the general mood on the street. Are everyday bears calling for war against humanity? Is the influx of human trade goods stealing bear jobs and creating a xenophobic uprising? We're not talking about an attack of opportunity: this was a carefully calculated and planned operation to decapitate human leadership while simultaneously gearing up for full-scale conventional war. I find it hard to believe that the leadership has been pushing this forward without some modicum of public consensus, even in a dictatorship. Shifting that consensus and distancing Bulrathi civilians from the war effort is going to be vital, because their default is going to be considering themselves as elements in the Bulrathi war machine rather than as the individuals you want to judge them as. The Bulrathi propaganda corps will do their absolute best to keep them as a unified collective, and if they end the war like that then it could be very difficult to shift public opinion on either side even after fighting ends. I believe it's also been established that Bulrathi lifespans are relatively long, right? That means that lingering resentments are going to be easier to transfer from one generation to the next. And if the Bulrathi hate us fifty years down the line, then we'll definitely hate them right back. You'll keep the moral high ground in combat, but if that news never reaches civilians then it doesn't matter. I propose that covert ops teams start focusing on casting the Bulrathi atrocities on Earth as war crimes against an innocent and unsuspecting target. Public perception of whether we're freeing the Bulrathi or crushing them, on both sides, is vital to ensuring a safe transition to peaceful coexistence. (All this discussion for an event that we haven't even seen in game yet.) EDIT: To make it clear, it's more important that such a program exists and is publicly noticeable than for it to actually be successful. A handful of well-publicized Bulrathi war protesters allows for human observers to develop sympathy for Bulrathi as a whole and see them as individuals rather than a collective. Simultaneously, it becomes easier for Bulrathi civilians to rationalize after the war that they were really secretly against it the whole time, thus divorcing themselves from the collective. And this despite having no actual effect on the war effort. This kind of ended up in a different place than I intended. Karia fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Dec 9, 2016 |
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Dec 9, 2016 05:17
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Anyways, this has been a very fascinating read - both on the status of philosophy and interpretation and divergent views. I really do appreciate threads like these that allow this sort of discussion on concepts on sci-fi!
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Dec 9, 2016 05:59
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:I thought how the Klackon issue was handled in that LP was one of the most interesting things I've seen in LPs. It could have easily been a major plot in a good space opera. How was it handled?
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Dec 9, 2016 06:33
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GunnerJ posted:How was it handled? Surgically removing their connection to the hivemind, then leashing them with Bug Heroin, if I recall. Eventually the tech came about to genetically modify them to naturally have an individual identity and sense of self direction, but even the ethics of that are murky as all hell. Turns out trying to integrate radically different aliens into a human society is really hard.
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Dec 9, 2016 06:41
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Karia posted:On the other hand, doesn't it make sense to hold a society responsible for the sort of leaders it produces? Bulrathi society has a far more militaristic zeitgeist than humanity, and is therefore going to produce on average more militaristic leaders. It's a two way street: leaders can direct a society and how it develops, but simultaneously they're influenced by society around them. But holding a society responsible isn't the same as holding individuals responsible. If I hold Nazi Germany responsible for the Holocaust, does it follow that I hold every individual German responsible? What if they really disliked Hitler's rule, but seeing no possible way to overthrow him, kept their heads down and their mouths shut because staying alive to be the breadwinner for their family was better than throwing their life away on a futile gesture that would make no difference? Now, if they voted for Hitler because they liked his nationalistic policies, you could make a better case for holding them responsible for some of what he did. Though even there, I'd hesitate to hold the average 1940's German patriot responsible for the Holocaust if he/she knew nothing about it. I'm also willing to excuse, to some extent, the ones who heard about it from American sources and dismissed it as enemy propaganda -- because it truly would have sounded like the kind of thing an enemy would make up to lower morale. They should have found the claims plausible and tried to find out the truth -- given Hitler's rhetoric about the Jews, they could have figured out that it was at least possible that he'd go that far -- so they do bear some guilt for not finding out the truth. And those who knew the truth and went along with it should be held entirely responsible. But again, it's all shades of guilt based on their individual knowledge and actions. The mere fact that they were part of German society does not condemn them; rather, it's what they did or did not do with the knowledge that they had that condemns or excuses them. I agree with your point that part of the human war effort against the Bulrathi will be to stir up anti-war protests. That's why my contribution to the LP's narrative was an anti-war protest song that Team Alpha could have written and dumped on the Bulrathi nets at an appropriate moment. (Though my song did make some assumptions about how the war would go, and those assumptions are turning out to be somewhat incorrect. Nweismuller, please feel absolutely free to edit my song in any way that you need to to make it fit what actually happened, or even to not use it if it can't be adjusted to fit the actual events. If the latter happens, I'll post it as a bit of "alternate history" fiction.) And good question about Bulrathi lifespans. If they live 150-200 years, say, then in 50 years the Bulrathi restaurants are mostly going to be run by young Bulrathi who are rebelling against their parents' anti-Human attitudes. In which case Bulrathi restaurants won't as ubiquitous on Earth as sushi restaurants are ubiquitous in California. And since human lifespans have also been significantly lengthened (I think nweismuller mentioned 120 years at some point?), then maybe I should make it 70-80 years later, rather than 50 years later. But even so, the generation born after the war ends will be a lot less racist (whether they're anti-human Bulrathi or anti-Bulrathi humans) than the ones who were adults while it happened, so 50 years is still plausible.
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Dec 9, 2016 06:42
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I'll let POOL IS CLOSED comment, since they should be more familiar than me about what they found interesting, but my initial MoO2 LP happened to have the Klackon as competitors- and as competitors with the very most hostile AI type possible (which is pretty common for them). The Klackon were thus a sapient eusocial species motivated solely by a pure, perfect, and selfless love for their own species, which rendered them unremittingly hostile to anything outside their own hive. Unsurprisingly, this meant we eventually ended up at war with them. Now, as a matter of game mechanics, Klackon can assimilate into other empires just as well as anybody else... which is interesting, given that a eusocial species such as that under a Unification 'government' would likely find operating under any other social system difficult. I thus glossed the process of 'assimilating' them as a matter of using drugs to suppress the chemical signals associated with their species empathy, then motivating them via synthetic drugs meant to imitate the glow of well-being they previously got from species empathy. Nobody was really particularly happy with this solution, and Klackon doped to the gills on drugs were significantly more erratic than they were in their natural state, but it was that, 'bomb them into extinction from orbit', or 'let them continue on while they remain totally incapable of peaceful coexistence with any neighbors', and people decided the most humane option available was to subjugate them via drug addiction.
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Dec 9, 2016 06:49
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Nazi Germany is probably not the best example for your point, seeing as the vast majority of Germans knew what was going on, and a sizable fraction (but by no means the majority) supported it. It's not exactly hard to figure our why Herr Tabakman who used to run the cobbler's shop is suddenly missing when the guy in charge has been talking about murdering all the Jews since the 20's, and doing nothing to stop it implicates you almost as much as actively participating. Whether or not the Bulrathi are in a similar situation (i.e. relatively widespread popular support for the poo poo they pulled) will have to be seen, but even dictatorships can't function without the nominal support of the people. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Dec 9, 2016 |
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Dec 9, 2016 06:50
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Crazycryodude posted:Whether or not the Bulrathi are in a similar situation (i.e. relatively widespread popular support for the poo poo they pulled) will have to be seen, but even dictatorships can't function without the nominal support of the people. Let's see how the Strike operations we're trying to pull off in the Empire turn out. If we get major work stoppages on a lot of their worlds, I think we can safely say at least some unrest was sown. We actually have three of them in the pipeline.
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Dec 9, 2016 07:35
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So currently your fleet has one of their systems under blockade and you're sending reinforcements over to them, right? Is it worth it to take the heavily damaged ships and retreat them to your own systems to avoid risking further losses of the crippled ships and then send them in another wave once they've repaired or will they repairin a few turns in the field to the point it's not really worth it and you'r enot picking up any other Bulrathi ships incoming either?
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Dec 9, 2016 08:14
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The basic issue there is that Ellq, which is where our front lines are, is farther away from our own space than their reinforcements are from Ellq right now. The Peacemaker is three years out from Ellq now. The next reinforcements, the Chevalier, is six years out.
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Dec 9, 2016 16:47
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The tensions between trying to deal with a totally alien foe in a humane way and also imposing not just the victor's cultural values but also biological, hm, norms? imperatives? on the Klackon just really interested me, especially since it was an action taken by a reasonably liberal government trying to do their best to not have to either abandon these Klackon to leaderless extinction/long-term chaos while they raised a new queen (assuming they had that capability) or orbitally bombard them into extinction. On the one hand, hooking a conquered population on drugs to make them more pliant and manageable sounds like a drat warcrime, but on the other, the very physiology of the Klackon means any alternative means of preserving and integrating them would be essentially similar. It could've easily become a creepy slavery narrative but that was averted in favor of a different and less explored moral ambiguities.
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Dec 9, 2016 17:15
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One thing I'm uncertain if people got during the original MoO2 LP- I hinted based on the history that both the Klackons and Elerians were byproducts of Antaran biosciences. The Klackon species empathy, in my mind, was designed as a trial run for Antaran loyalty conditioning which was built into Antaran physiology... Species empathy wasn't fixed on a specific leader figure like Antaran loyalty conditioning, but it gave Antaran biologists a trial run in building overwhelming motivation systems directly into the psychology of a sapient species. E: was there anybody who recalls suspecting anything like that based on my hinting? I'll freely confess I left this subtle and implied, but I'm curious if it wasn't so subtle it was entirely lost. nweismuller fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Dec 9, 2016 |
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Dec 9, 2016 17:23
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nweismuller posted:One thing I'm uncertain if people got during the original MoO2 LP- I hinted based on the history that both the Klackons and Elerians were byproducts of Antaran biosciences. The Klackon species empathy, in my mind, was designed as a trial run for Antaran loyalty conditioning which was built into Antaran physiology... Species empathy wasn't fixed on a specific leader figure like Antaran loyalty conditioning, but it gave Antaran biologists a trial run in building overwhelming motivation systems directly into the psychology of a sapient species. I think it was a pretty clear subtext (heck, from the in-game lore, I think it's likely canon).
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Dec 9, 2016 17:45
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I'm not sure I can agree with the 'canon' thing, given how vague the in-game lore is in MoO2. The only two species we can link to precursors with any confidence in the canon are Trilarians, who are stranded divergent offshoots of the Antarans, and the Alkari, who are explicitly stated in the manual to have once been colonised by the Orions.
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Dec 9, 2016 19:42
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Tax Refund posted:Yeah, there'll always be some racists around -- and here, "racist" is actually an accurate term, unlike when it's used for people who don't like other human beings based on ethnicity. White, black, whatever, we're all still the same race -- human. (Though I understand why people say "racist" instead of "ethnicicist" -- even though "ethnicicist" would technically be the right word, it's such a mouthful that I'd look for any other word to use instead.) Racism is the name used for a specific form of systematic oppression of people based on the social construct called race.  It's not just colorism (and doesn't require colorism), it's not just ethnicism (and doesn't even require ethnicism), it's not just xenophobia either, and it's not just a collection of individuals going "gently caress those guys, because race" - It's when a society is structured in a way that actively does "gently caress those guys, because race, again and again and again and again"Your approach, while laudible in the general sense of the intentions it shows, can actually blind you to some forms of inequality. Either about issues you personally don't face (Ask black people in US about the poo poo some of them have to deal with because of their hair, or people diagnosed with mental illness about being told repeatedly to "just be normal like everyone else"), or large-scale statistically visible but individually hard to see issues (In theory, women have the same rights as men, yet on average have noticeably lower income for the same work), or issues that require access to resources to complain about in the first place (Romani people in Europe - ridiculous poverty in addition to other problems leads to undereducation which leads to significantly less chance of ending up in a position that can bring attention to the issues they face), or some of the many other situations where it's important to notice the difference. I mean, it can even happen when trying to help with the best of intentions. Random minor example: men forgetting about feminine hygiene products when providing hygienic supplies to help victims of some disaster. my dad fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Dec 9, 2016 |
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Dec 9, 2016 23:39
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Fortunately for eventual Human-Bulrathi assimilated coexistence, apparently both species metabolize the same alcohols and consider them culturally important.
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Dec 10, 2016 05:04
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Now I'm deeply interested in reading the account of the Republic Marines that take the
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Dec 10, 2016 05:36
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Crazycryodude posted:Now I'm deeply interested in reading the account of the Republic Marines that take the I will take that as a personal goal, then, although it may be some time until we finally take Bulra.
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Dec 10, 2016 05:41
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my dad posted:Your approach, while laudible in the general sense of the intentions it shows, can actually blind you to some forms of inequality. Either about issues you personally don't face (Ask black people in US about the poo poo some of them have to deal with because of their hair, or people diagnosed with mental illness about being told repeatedly to "just be normal like everyone else"), or large-scale statistically visible but individually hard to see issues (In theory, women have the same rights as men, yet on average have noticeably lower income for the same work), or issues that require access to resources to complain about in the first place (Romani people in Europe - ridiculous poverty in addition to other problems leads to undereducation which leads to significantly less chance of ending up in a position that can bring attention to the issues they face), or some of the many other situations where it's important to notice the difference. I mean, it can even happen when trying to help with the best of intentions. Random minor example: men forgetting about feminine hygiene products when providing hygienic supplies to help victims of some disaster. You're quite right about the potential to be blind to issues one doesn't personally face -- for example, I had no idea that people with mental illness had to deal with others telling them to "just be normal". When we encounter that kind of ignorance in someone else, we should try to let them know what they're mistaken about ("Um, you know that depression is a real thing, right? It's not just laziness -- this person actually has a chemical problem in their brain, and that medication they have to take isn't even remotely optional for them."). In that vein, though, I think I should tell you that one of those problems you cite, you're actually mistaken about. If when you talk about women having "noticeably lower income for the same work" you're referring to the often-quoted "77 cents on the dollar" figure for the U.S., that one turns out to be statistically invalid because it was produced by adding apples to oranges: it added together all the salaries of women in the U.S. and compared that to the total salaries for men in the U.S., and found a ratio of 77:100. But in fact, women in the U.S. tend to work fewer hours than men for, in many cases, perfectly valid reasons, such as cutting their work hours so that they have more time at home to take care of a baby. When you look at an actual apples-to-apples comparison based on pay per hour, the difference is something like (IIRC) 92:100. (I don't have the numbers in front of me, and I'm typing this comment in a bit of a rush so I can't afford the time to go search for them right this instant). And when you look at one other fact, that about 95% of workplace deaths are of men, not women, the remaining 8% gap is explained in a way that is perfectly satisfactory to me. If there are two jobs that require roughly equal amounts of skill, but one of them is more dangerous than the other one (say, working on high-voltage electrical lines vs. doing electrical work in homes where the highest voltage you'll encounter is 110V), then the more dangerous job should pay more to compensate the workers for the extra danger they're putting themselves in. If 95% of the workplace deaths are of men, then it seems clear that men overwhelmingly take the more dangerous jobs with a higher risk of getting killed, and therefore they should be getting somewhat higher pay for those jobs. And if my memory is correct that the per-hour-worked pay gap is 8%, then that actually seems a little low to me -- I'd think a gap of 10-12% would be more fair if the danger ratio is so lopsided, and an 8% gap seems to me to be slightly unfair to the people (in this case, mostly men) who are taking these extremely dangerous jobs, because they're not being paid enough extra to compensate them for a 20:1 ratio in danger. But as I said, a lot of what you cite is correct, and one should be on the lookout for one's personal blind spots. And especially not dismiss someone else's complaint of injustice simply because one doesn't experience it oneself: that's an excellent point.
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Dec 12, 2016 02:02
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Tax Refund posted:You're quite right about the potential to be blind to issues one doesn't personally face -- for example, I had no idea that people with mental illness had to deal with others telling them to "just be normal". When we encounter that kind of ignorance in someone else, we should try to let them know what they're mistaken about ("Um, you know that depression is a real thing, right? It's not just laziness -- this person actually has a chemical problem in their brain, and that medication they have to take isn't even remotely optional for them."). Indeed, we should try to counter ignorance, as an autistic (if only a mild case) person myself, I hear stuff like "try to be normal" an annoying amount of the time. I do try but it's a constant learning experience. Thankfully, I find that having a friendly demeanour can make people forgive a few oddities. I'm also glad you corrected the "gender pay gap thing" (more accurately called an "earnings gap") because I'm aware of that common misconception myself, but wouldn't be sure how to correct it without coming across as either an arsehole or a sexist (or both). But it does go to show the importance of looking at all the information, otherwise you can come to faulty conclusions that fit the information you have seen, but aren't actually the whole story. As you say, apples to oranges. Anyway, yes, there will be tensions between the humans and the conquered/liberated/insert euphemism of your choice here Bulrathi and it will take time for most of it to heal, but eventually, ignorance and hatred will be overcome. Booze will probably be important to this happening. I can have moments of... eccentricity and sometimes be quite curious about things. Please forgive me if I do something foolish or rude.
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Dec 12, 2016 15:02
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Yiiiiiikes. The dangerous jobs aren't the ones that are well compensated, so that's a red herring (also, one of the reasons women are underrepresented in dangerous jobs is that they tend to get harassed out of them by male colleagues). In a sane system, parents would receive a paid leave to help take care of a baby, rather than this being a type of unpaid labor and only done by women (another thing to add to my post which I left out because I was only providing examples to explain my point: Women do a hell of a lot more unpaid labor than men, and it "not counting" as work is part of the drat problem). And now I'm done being polite. You just explicitly said that the wage gap is not big enough, while pulling numbers out of your rear end to prove your point. Holy loving poo poo, man. With the amount of sexual harassment women face, with the bizzare laws that deny them bodily autonomy, very clear underrepresentation in decision-making positions, and a bunch of other poo poo I could keep listing forever, you take a look at their income and say "Hm... I think women should be shat on even harder". You're not unaware of the problem, you're a part of the problem. Stephen9001 posted:but wouldn't be sure how to correct it without coming across as either an arsehole or a sexist (or both). You can't say it without sounding like both because it does make you both.
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Dec 12, 2016 17:09
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Guys this probably isn't the right thread for this just saying.
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Dec 12, 2016 17:14
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Theantero posted:Guys this probably isn't the right thread for this just saying. No, it's not, but there's poo poo that should be called out whener it's said, and the above was one of the things that cross the line.
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Dec 12, 2016 17:24
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But hey in this future universe we can perhaps be long past such inequality and instead be concerned about the bear menace.
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Dec 12, 2016 18:06
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:But hey in this future universe we can perhaps be long past such inequality and instead be concerned about the bear menace. Look on the bright side: the people of Earth should have a much deeper empathy for what the lives of the colonists are like now that the Commando Bears have spent 10 years wrecking Earth's infrastructure. Even better, it should also prevent the complacency that comes from living in a place far away from any potential space-based front lines.
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Dec 12, 2016 18:14
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Not going to get into this much because arguing politics on the Internet is like starting a land war with Russia, but I didn't want to leave Tax Refund alone out there. The long and short of it is that he's basically right: the pay gap was always a factor of education and experience on 1 hand (and sexism was definitely a factor there, especially in the 70s; if you're not hired at all you won't get experience ) and the type of work on the other, with men being disproportionately more likely to, yes, work hazardous jobs and outdoors with women dominating clerical, administration, etc. "STEM" vs. "HEAL," basically. And keep in mind, this is still comparing median income. If you do the apples-to-apples men vs. childless single women comparison like he said, the pay gap has hovered around 95% since the late 90s. It's not perfectly fair and it'd be great if it was; but that's not bad. Sources: Brookings Institute study on the pay gap, BLS website (type "gender" in the search box, skim PDFs) So anyway, trying to get this on topic; anybody else taken a look at the Elerians in NewMOO yet? They're probably my favorite redesign of the 3 (I like their swoopy ships in particular), but that's like trying to decide what flavor of SPAM I don't want to eat.  Just not too keen on most of the races in this one overall. The Darloks were always my favorites; turning them into Quarians darn near single-handedly made this game a no-deal.
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Dec 12, 2016 20:52
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Yeah, from now on the Republic should have a 1 strike policy towards espionage. Catch a spy from a fair weather friend? Send him back and demand an end to spying. Catch another and send him back too, strapped to a ship killer torpedo.
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Dec 12, 2016 21:06
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Nevets posted:Yeah, from now on the Republic should have a 1 strike policy towards espionage. Catch a spy from a fair weather friend? Send him back and demand an end to spying. Catch another and send him back too, strapped to a ship killer torpedo. I'm not sure espionage should be automatic causus belli. Passive intelligence gathering and data thefts should be by all means strongly discouraged and impact foreign policy, but unless malicious infiltration teams are causing havoc I don't think campaigns should be prosecuted over it.
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Dec 13, 2016 03:51
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I've never played a game in this franchise, and since we're not going to see WMD's in the LP, I was curious about how they work. Does it create a pollution hazard? Does every other sapient race thinks you're a monster and refuses to deal with/eventually declares war on you? Does it hit your own population's morale?
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Dec 13, 2016 03:58
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Teledahn posted:I'm not sure espionage should be automatic causus belli. Passive intelligence gathering and data thefts should be by all means strongly discouraged and impact foreign policy, but unless malicious infiltration teams are causing havoc I don't think campaigns should be prosecuted over it. This is exactly the kind of post I'd expect from an obvious BEAR SYMPATHIZER. 
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Dec 13, 2016 04:09
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From a purely gameplay stance, espionage being a "one strike and you're out" thing is... not the best idea. For whatever reason, it seems that the AI is incredibly spy-happy, even among close allies. Not to say we shouldn't respond when threatened, the last thing we need is another Earth, but extreme measures like declaring war on a major ally and trading partner because we caught them setting up basic intel gathering twice is disproportionate.
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Dec 13, 2016 04:37
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