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All I'm going to say is that if your defense of the game being easy to teach despite being super fiddly is 'remember the theme' then you're pretty far down the rabbit hole.
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Dec 9, 2016 19:38
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lordsummerisle posted:So I just got Gallerist and Great Western Trail in the mail. Any thing I should know going into these? They're both pretty complex, though you are right that GWT is probably easier to pick up.
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Dec 9, 2016 19:44
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ETB posted:They're both pretty complex, though you are right that GWT is probably easier to pick up. Complex as in "the players should have played at least a midweight euro ala Orleans/Marco Polo?".
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Dec 9, 2016 19:48
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west end adventures is up for preorder at CSI http://www.coolstuffinc.com/p/231663
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Dec 9, 2016 19:50
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lordsummerisle posted:Complex as in "the players should have played at least a midweight euro ala Orleans/Marco Polo?". That would definitely help their experience. I think both games are pretty "deep" in the hobby insofar as the game rules/structure. GWT is a little bit more approachable with a pseudo-deckbuilding element.
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Dec 9, 2016 19:59
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I like Dungeon Lords. Combining online games with in person games, I've probably played it 50 times or so, and I intend to keep playing it. There are definite flaws with the game, but getting blocked out of actions should be a nonfactor in most games. You should only get blocked out if you're last in turn order, and you always have a season to wait to not be last player. The exception to this is learning about an event when you're blocked out of the relevant resource on the turn you find out. For example, you are blocked out of gold on the season that taxes are revealed. If you also happen to be 4th player the next season, you can be screwed with no recourse. This happens in the second year fairly often. Taking the dead letters basically ends your game, which only encourages the other players to block you. It happens infrequently, but it's pretty terrible when it happens. Similar things can happen with reputation and the Title Envy event. The more serious and frequently occurring problems have to do with positioning on an action, especially their interaction with the market rows. Since monsters and rooms are so valuable by themselves, players frequently take the action. You need monsters to fight and they give 1vp each, and rooms give 2 vp each. Since selection order matters so much, players tend not to put these actions first, so on almost any given season at least one player is blocked out of each action. So now the last unblocked player is in an advantageous position. If you're the last unblocked player on the turn that the hall of fame or another good point scoring room is revealed, you are at a huge advantage and it just came down to luck. Many games come down to who has first choice of room on a pivotal turn. Note that holding back your room action isn't really a viable strategy. For it to work, everyone has to hold it back or put it first, but even then on the crucial turn it does come down to luck. On a small level, jockeying for position on the other spaces can become rock paper scissors, but I still feel like most of this comes down to figuring out an opponent's plan and capitalizing on that knowledge.
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Dec 9, 2016 21:01
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Tekopo posted:What I won't deny is that there is a luck component when it comes to actual specific positions on the actions themselves. Which is why you never want to be in a position where you have 0 money at the end of a turn. Well, "want to" is kind of not the question here. It's a bit more like "how far will I go to make sure I avoid that position" or, more specifically "what percentage of the time, and to what extent, will I expose myself to an increased probability of this bad outcome". There's an optimal equilibrium here, and following that equilibrium should sometimes end with you taking the bad outcome. If your play doesn't sometimes have this outcome then it means you're playing too conservatively and should expect to lose more over time than someone following an optimal distribution. (Or it means the game has a kind of degeneracy).
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Dec 9, 2016 21:03
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Supposedly CGE is going to release a mini game on mobile that's just Dungeon Lords Combat.
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Dec 9, 2016 21:14
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Shadow225 posted:All I'm going to say is that if your defense of the game being easy to teach despite being super fiddly is 'remember the theme' then you're pretty far down the rabbit hole. jmzero posted:Well, "want to" is kind of not the question here. It's a bit more like "how far will I go to make sure I avoid that position" or, more specifically "what percentage of the time, and to what extent, will I expose myself to an increased probability of this bad outcome". There's an optimal equilibrium here, and following that equilibrium should sometimes end with you taking the bad outcome. If your play doesn't sometimes have this outcome then it means you're playing too conservatively and should expect to lose more over time than someone following an optimal distribution. (Or it means the game has a kind of degeneracy).
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Dec 9, 2016 21:26
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In Dungeon Lords, if you get blocked on an action, you can take that card back instead of your first one, while the other players are likely to be locked out for the next season. I've had seasons in which I performed no actions at all, but If you get blocked one season it's highly unlikely that you'll get blocked the next.
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Dec 9, 2016 21:39
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Some Numbers posted:In Dungeon Lords, if you get blocked on an action, you can take that card back instead of your first one, while the other players are likely to be locked out for the next season.
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Dec 9, 2016 21:44
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sonatinas posted:Supposedly CGE is going to release a mini game on mobile that's just Dungeon Lords Combat. That sounds awful tbh.
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Dec 9, 2016 21:44
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Tekopo posted:That's not the point though: if you get action-blocked when you needed the money, that's -3 (or more) points: getting the money after that won't get rid of the penalty. Right, but you have two seasons' of notice before Taxes hit, so if you get blocked in Spring, you can drop it again in Summer The exception is if EVERYONE places it first in Spring and you're last in Summer AND they decide that they really want to spend their first action blocking you. Getting accidentally blocked for two consecutive seasons requires some ASTRONOMICALLY bad luck.
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Dec 9, 2016 22:18
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My enlightening moment with Dungeon Lords was when I finally got all the technical elements of play and combat locked in and started looking at other players' boards and realized how badly you could gently caress them over with well sequenced orders and blocking, and then started actively trying to do just that.
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Dec 9, 2016 22:22
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Gumdrop Larry posted:My enlightening moment with Dungeon Lords was when I finally got all the technical elements of play and combat locked in and started looking at other players' boards and realized how badly you could gently caress them over with well sequenced orders and blocking, and then started actively trying to do just that. And then they start anticipating, you adjust, and then the paladin comes and wrecks your poo poo.
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Dec 9, 2016 22:27
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Game designer opinions: Rosenberg: I have found all of his games...okay. I am content to play them occasionally. Chvatil: Tash-Kalar is his only game I prefer over others in its genre. I'll never turn down Codenames, either, though. Space Alert doesn't work for me, but I think it's good and have actually recommended it to people. Galaxy Trucker and Mage Knight are terrible games. Feld: I like some of his games and have asked for Trajan this Christmas. Once I have that I don't see a reason to get a second of his designs, though. Knizia: I will fight anyone who besmirches the honor of Tigris & Euphrates, Through the Desert or Ra to the death. It's safe to say he's had a lot more misses than hits, though. Trzewiczek: Is that the guy that needed to have basic probability explained to him by Vlaada Chvatil? Give me your Martin Wallace opinions. lordsummerisle posted:Complex as in "the players should have played at least a midweight euro ala Orleans/Marco Polo?". For Gallerist I ended up watching the Watch It Played. Part of it is that it's pretty intimidating, but it's not the easiest game to get into the first time you play. Once you understand it, it's not that hard, in part because the player aids are really good.
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Dec 9, 2016 22:29
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quote:(which, in my experience, tends to be rare unless everyone is playing extremely aggressively). Sure - and I think I have a better sense now of what you meant overall. I just get easily caught up in pedantic/absolute sort of rabbit holes. quote:Knizia: I will fight anyone who besmirches the honor of Tigris & Euphrates, Through the Desert or Ra to the death. It's safe to say he's had a lot more misses than hits, though. Yeah, it's kind of sad that for a bunch of people they'll only see his phoned in garbage - like the recent Game of Thrones reskin of Penguin Pile-up (or whatever it's called). I personally don't like Ra, but T&E is a unique masterpiece. jmzero fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Dec 9, 2016 |
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Dec 9, 2016 22:31
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Wizard Styles posted:Give me your Martin Wallace opinions.. Was good but fiddly, then got old and bad.
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Dec 9, 2016 22:38
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Martin Wallace was a good designer that sold out, decided to cash it in and his only acceptable game after the masterpieces of Brass and Automobile has been Via Nebula (debatably ). Knizia has made T&E and that's a pure gem of brightness in the mire that is the rest of his catalog.
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Dec 9, 2016 22:38
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Wizard Styles posted:Trzewiczek: Is that the guy that needed to have basic probability explained to him by Vlaada Chvatil? Yes, that is Ignacy. And his own recollections about those conversations with Vlaada were enough to steer me away from any Ignacy game. Also Imperial Settlers is loving terrible.
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Dec 9, 2016 22:56
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Tekopo posted:Martin Wallace was a good designer that sold out, decided to cash it in and his only acceptable game after the masterpieces of Brass and Automobile has been Via Nebula (debatably ). IMO Discworld was ok for what it was. I'm not a huge fan of London but it's fine and I have friends who really like it. In a world where Brass didn't exist Age of Industry would be great. Knizia has a few other older ones that are solid but didn't set the world on fire like Amun-Re and Samurai. Agreed that his great games like T&E are rare spots in a huge sea, though.
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Dec 9, 2016 23:02
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Today I learned that I didn't mold a competent crew manning the Sitting Duck in space alert. My friend said he cheated on our last game 1.5 years ago because he was tired of us always losing.  It's time to bring it back in the regular rotation.
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Dec 9, 2016 23:28
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Question about Fury of Dracula: I'm going to teach/play it for the first time tomorrow night. In the how to play manual, it is suggested to leave lairs, rumor tokens, for at least the second game. In your experience, is this a wise decision, or should I bite the bullet and throw it all against the wall? I'll likely be playing Dracula, and I don't mind losing the first game if it makes the experience smoother for the other players. I'd like to get it to the table more than once.
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Dec 9, 2016 23:50
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I'd leave them out for now. Pretty much all of the advanced rules help Dracula.
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Dec 10, 2016 00:39
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Mice and Mystics
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Dec 10, 2016 01:21
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Wizard Styles posted:
After school. Playground. Let's go.
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Dec 10, 2016 01:26
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I like Knizia, obviously. Trzewiczek is dogshit with pants on. How can someone read his "Vlaada hates my bad math" post and say "oh yeah, he's a quality designer"?
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Dec 10, 2016 01:29
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Wizard Styles posted:Galaxy Trucker and Mage Knight are terrible games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHoNWwhzh3M
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Dec 10, 2016 01:36
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Chill la Chill posted:Today I learned that I didn't mold a competent crew manning the Sitting Duck in space alert. My friend said he cheated on our last game 1.5 years ago because he was tired of us always losing. Is that the 2-player ship you print out? How do you think it works? Is it worth printing it out and trying it 2-player? I love the game but never have four people.
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Dec 10, 2016 01:37
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PlaneGuy posted:Trzewiczek is dogshit with pants on. How can someone read his "Vlaada hates my bad math" post and say "oh yeah, he's a quality designer"? I don't think there was anything inherently wrong with not realizing the bad math, since it shows a sort of growth as a designer. The problem is that I don't think he actually learned anything from that story. His own story. Christopher Boelinger is my underdog designer who I wished made more games.
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Dec 10, 2016 01:41
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Galaxy Trucker owns with a stable group. It's definitely a bit rough when playing across skill levels. In particular, once you reach the point of "I'm not going to build the perfect ship, I'm going to build one good enough to get through and flip the timer as fast as possible" (which is honestly not very far, but still...), it becomes very difficult to play with newbies. It cures people of AP right quick though!
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Dec 10, 2016 01:42
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GrandpaPants posted:I don't think there was anything inherently wrong with not realizing the bad math, since it shows a sort of growth as a designer. The problem is that I don't think he actually learned anything from that story. His own story. Well that's the point. He talks about having his feelings hurt and such, but when you actually play Robinson Crusoe, he clearly didn't make any changes based on the feedback. I feel the point of that blog was "~oooooh my hero tore me down! he is my hero no more!! I resolve to be even shittier a designer" which makes me just hate him on a personal level.
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Dec 10, 2016 01:47
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lordsummerisle posted:So I just got Gallerist and Great Western Trail in the mail. Any thing I should know going into these? The Gallerist is much less intimidating than it initially appears. I've taught it to a number of players who had never played anything of that weight before, and without exception they all said they saw what they were meant to be doing around the midpoint. The most important thing is how to use the Influence track for maximum free money and bonus actions. If you're teaching it, be sure to let everyone know that your Curator and Art Dealer will account for between 10% and 20% of your final score so don't focus on them too hard. They're a nice bonus, not an essential.
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Dec 10, 2016 01:51
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Shadow225 posted:Question about Fury of Dracula: Rumor tokens and lairs maybe? Just make sure you ALWAYS use Dracula's special cards, though. They make the deduction game much more interesting on both sides, and playing without them kills a big part of the fun.
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Dec 10, 2016 02:14
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Just finished a 4 hour game of Great Western Trail, 2 newbies and 2 players with some experience. I had fun but it was kind of long. Some thoughts: It is a point salad, non-blocking worker placement with deck building and limited interaction. The amount of take that is low but not zero, feels like it's just right. The iconography is fairly daunting at first, but after a few rounds things should become clear. There are many possible strategies which are fun to explore. On top of that, some parts of the game (buildings) can be flipped to their advanced side so replay value is fairly high. Word of warning though: As it is a point salad, it is very time consuming but not impossible to calculate everyone's score at all times. Technically, this knowledge gives a strategic advantage. If you have the type of player who would be tempted do this, don't play this game with them as it will take forever.
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Dec 10, 2016 02:21
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I just got my copy of Scythe: Invaders from Afar, and it looks super interesting, and I'm very excited to play the next time I have more than a few moments of free time. The new abilities for Albion and Togawa look interesting, the way they adjusted Crimea and Polania's abilities to deal with 7 players is good, and neither of the new factions have the speed ability, so I'm interested to see how their alternate abilities make up for that. Also, the entire expansion fits in the original box, which is great.
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Dec 10, 2016 02:35
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Is Scythe good? I've heard a lot of hype and read the Ars Cardboard review but I trust boardgoons and I wanna hear what you guys have to say about it before I sink over $100 on a board game.
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Dec 10, 2016 02:52
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Phi230 posted:Is Scythe good? I've heard a lot of hype and read the Ars Cardboard review but I trust boardgoons and I wanna hear what you guys have to say about it before I sink over $100 on a board game. I was underwhelmed by my first play. I may not have gotten a grasp on a decent strategy or how it properly "works." I'd ultimately play it again, if only to give it a fairer shake, but it didn't really blow me away.
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Dec 10, 2016 02:57
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OgreNoah posted:Also, the entire expansion fits in the original box, which is great. It's already on my Xmas wish list, but I'm very happy to read this. It's also interesting that the new factions don't have the Speed upgrade, because when I first read about their abilities I thought they sounded overpowered.
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Dec 10, 2016 03:07
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Gutter Owl posted:Rumor tokens and lairs maybe? Just make sure you ALWAYS use Dracula's special cards, though. They make the deduction game much more interesting on both sides, and playing without them kills a big part of the fun. I'd go with just leaving lairs out. rumor tokens help speed up the game quite a bit, even though it helps the Dracula player. totally agreed on the leaving the Dracula powers in!
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Dec 10, 2016 03:09
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