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Remove all Tolkien referenced player species. Get rid of humans, elves, dwarves, trolls, halflings, orcs, vampires, ogres (mentioned in a single line in The Hobbit), tengu (too close to eagles imo), vine stalkers (same thing with ents), demigods (kind of the Maiar), felids and octopodes (there are cats and octopodes I'm sure).
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Dec 14, 2016 16:00
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| # ? May 13, 2024 23:11 |
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Ah but what do you get when you remove the game?
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Dec 14, 2016 16:08
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E Equals MC Hammer posted:Ah but what do you get when you remove the game? Perfection
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Dec 14, 2016 16:09
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You start as a kobold in a room with a door that has a wall behind it and an escape hatch that dumps you in a single tile surrounded by translucent walls. Then xom laughs at you and the credits roll.
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Dec 14, 2016 16:10
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remove everything but malmutate
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Dec 14, 2016 16:13
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Carcer posted:Ah, so its the HOM argument? if you miss stoneskin/phaseshift/flamebrand/etc. you live in a different universe than me, those spells were all annoying
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Dec 14, 2016 16:15
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mormonpartyboat posted:remove everything but malmutate What is left to be malmutated?
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Dec 14, 2016 16:15
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Rename demonspawn into Deep Humans, then remove humans
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Dec 14, 2016 16:16
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Meanwhile halflings...........
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Dec 14, 2016 16:17
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A god that only allows you to proceed downwards and never back up stairs. Has an ability that lets you go back to the very first floor at the cost of everything.
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Dec 14, 2016 16:18
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Fitzy Fitz posted:Meanwhile halflings........... Deeplings. Hill Deeps. Deepspawn. Octodeeps.
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Dec 14, 2016 16:22
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Maybe rename ogres to one and a halflings?
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Dec 14, 2016 16:23
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IronicDongz posted:no, it's a "these were actually annoying yet optimal for actual human beings playing the game" argument. No they weren't. They were valuable for lots of players, particularly melee types, who had time to cast a spell or two between seeing a dangerous enemy and engaging. They were also a good investment of spell levels for people who had lvl 8 & 9 attack spells online and needed to up their survivability quickly.
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Dec 14, 2016 16:27
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I've got all the survivability I need. It is called apocalypse.
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Dec 14, 2016 16:29
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E Equals MC Hammer posted:Ah but what do you get when you remove the game? code:
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Dec 14, 2016 16:34
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Still too complicated what if the player has no arms?
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Dec 14, 2016 16:36
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Speleothing posted:No they weren't. They were valuable for lots of players, particularly melee types, who had time to cast a spell or two between seeing a dangerous enemy and engaging. They were also a good investment of spell levels for people who had lvl 8 & 9 attack spells online and needed to up their survivability quickly. They could be helpful and interesting, but their implementation was poor. Having to cast all the time was annoying. And charms has always had the problem of "why wouldn't you invest in this?" because they were so universally useful. Giving them downsides (like swiftness) or permanence (like deflect missiles) was a good way to address them and make their use interesting. But I guess it was just easier to remove most of them. Like high elves: instead of making them more flavorful or leaving them alone, no one gets to use them anymore.
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Dec 14, 2016 16:36
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Making them do the path of exiles mana reservation thing would own. Swiftness would always be on but reduce your maximum mana. Same for the other recasty stuff.
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Dec 14, 2016 16:41
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If that doesn't work, maybe there could be a high elf buddy that would follow you around casting buffs.
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Dec 14, 2016 16:54
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IronicDongz posted:no, it's a "these were actually annoying yet optimal for actual human beings playing the game" argument. That's literally the HOM argument. It annoyed you if you didn't use it because you knew it was advantageous to do so but didn't want to put up withthe busywork of having to recast the spell whenever a fight was imminent. How can somethings mere existence be annoying like that? If you don't want to use it, fine, but let others make the choice themselves rather than making it for them.
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Dec 14, 2016 17:06
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Carcer posted:That's literally the HOM argument. It annoyed you if you didn't use it because you knew it was advantageous to do so but didn't want to put up withthe busywork of having to recast the spell whenever a fight was imminent. Or you could get the best of both worlds by eliminating the busy work like: the reserve mana bit as I was coming here to post that as well.
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Dec 14, 2016 17:36
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I play to have fun, and I'm pretty sure I instinctively avoided most temporary buff spells precisely because getting enough benefit out of them also came with a steep annoyance cost. Yes, sometimes you can get by with just casting these buffs every now and then and only when it's strictly necessary, but you're going to have games where you literally only survive by always keeping your temporary buffs online. Some players would rather take the L and start over, others tough it out and deal with the annoyance. I can see how changing stuff like this would rub people the wrong way but it's also pretty clearly within Crawl's overall design philosophy so it shouldn't be a surprise  Like, imagine if hexes had no success chance displayed whatsoever and it was optimal to learn the actual odds for hexing an enemy before you cast anything. I didn't do that exactly but I sure as hell checked the crawl wiki for MR values to see if a hex was worth casting. That was already enough for me to lose interest in hexes pretty quickly. When hexes had success rates built-in I had a blast with SpEn for the first time in forever. e: for the record I'd love to see these buffs come back if there's a good alternative to frequently re-casting things apple fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Dec 14, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 17:39
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Can I pause this argument for a moment to confirm the consensus that Ogres need a positive (+1 or better) M&F apt?
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Dec 14, 2016 17:40
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If you want to GSC, maybe. Use polearms or staves as your weapon-and-forget choice.
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Dec 14, 2016 17:44
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It's really silly to have Ogre enemies nearly universally carry Great Clubs or Great Spiked Clubs and have the player class have a negative aptitude.
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Dec 14, 2016 17:47
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Carcer posted:That's literally the HOM argument. It annoyed you if you didn't use it because you knew it was advantageous to do so but didn't want to put up withthe busywork of having to recast the spell whenever a fight was imminent. You can spot where the HOM makes sense if you look at it from the direction of the player always regenerating MP and failure rates. You don't want a spell to fail in the middle of combat (you lose the turn and MP), so you train in it to minimize the failure rate to avoid that happening. Buff spells, due to the nature of having a duration, make it more useful to cast prior to combat (or outside LOS) to avoid losing a turn while a monster is in LOS. Thus, failure rate only needs to be the bare minimum needed to cast it, making sure you won't get bad miscast effects, then recasting until it works. It also makes better use of your MP outside of combat: why let it sit at 100℅ with no buffs when you could have a buff and 90℅, regen most of it before you see an enemy, and also not waste a turn at the start of the fight casting a buff? Attack spells don't have this problem because there is nothing to attack outside of combat (except for Delayed Fireball, I guess, which I also don't like as a spell). Changing buffs to subtract max MP for permanent duration doesn't change the failure rate/MP usage issue, it just shifts the exploiting base to melee users with minimal want of spells. Train the bare minimum to cast in a safe place (with armor off if the spell allows), boosting Int and spellpower using all available sources, then taking it all back off when the spell succeeds. Congratulations, you are now always utilizing that MP you never would use otherwise, for a free permanent buff for no equipment slot cost! The only buffs that I find work well in Crawl are permanent buffs from equipment egos/artifact stats, temporary buffs from consumables, god power buffs because they cost piety/a god slot, and Hexes 'buffing' you by debuffing the monster. The only way to really remove the problems I stated above and still have spell buffs would be to remove natural MP regen to force only using them when required (thus, also requiring training of them). Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Dec 14, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 17:49
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brainwrinkle posted:It's really silly to have Ogre enemies nearly universally carry Great Clubs or Great Spiked Clubs and have the player class have a negative aptitude. FR: enemy ogres that carry short swords and spears but also cast magic dart
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Dec 14, 2016 17:55
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Speleothing posted:Can I pause this argument for a moment to confirm the consensus that Ogres need a positive (+1 or better) M&F apt?
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Dec 14, 2016 17:57
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E Equals MC Hammer posted:A god that only allows you to proceed downwards and never back up stairs. Has an ability that lets you go back to the very first floor at the cost of everything. See, you are probably saying that as satire or others are thinking this is satire. But just in case you didn't know, this has already been proposed, coded, given an experimental branch on CBRO, playtested, and abandoned. 2 years ago. I give you Wulndraste the Wayfarer (God of No Backtracking).
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Dec 14, 2016 18:00
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Floodkiller posted:Changing buffs to subtract max MP for permanent duration doesn't change the failure rate/MP usage issue, it just shifts the exploiting base to melee users with minimal want of spells. Train the bare minimum to cast in a safe place (with armor off if the spell allows), boosting Int and spellpower using all available sources, then taking it all back off when the spell succeeds. Congratulations, you are now always utilizing that MP you never would use otherwise, for a free permanent buff for no equipment slot cost! Alternatively, have the buff's effect significantly scale based off your current spell power and/or have a spell failure check every time the buff triggers to see if it actually does or not. Maybe even miscast effects on those checks if your failure rate is ludicrously high, like the idiot troll managing to gear/potion their way into getting a deflect missiles up.
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Dec 14, 2016 18:09
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Floodkiller posted:You can spot where the HOM makes sense if you look at it from the direction of the player always regenerating MP and failure rates. You don't want a spell to fail in the middle of combat (you lose the turn and MP), so you train in it to minimize the failure rate to avoid that happening. Buff spells, due to the nature of having a duration, make it more useful to cast prior to combat (or outside LOS) to avoid losing a turn while a monster is in LOS. Thus, failure rate only needs to be the bare minimum needed to cast it, making sure you won't get bad miscast effects, then recasting until it works. It also makes better use of your MP outside of combat: why let it sit at 100℅ with no buffs when you could have a buff and 90℅, regen most of it before you see an enemy, and also not waste a turn at the start of the fight casting a buff? Attack spells don't have this problem because there is nothing to attack outside of combat (except for Delayed Fireball, I guess, which I also don't like as a spell). Heres a counterpoint. My life is tedious and my games should be fun.
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Dec 14, 2016 18:09
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We don't want to make the game less tedious, that's basically cheating!
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Dec 14, 2016 18:11
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Floodkiller posted:You can spot where the HOM makes sense if you look at it from the direction of the player always regenerating MP and failure rates. You don't want a spell to fail in the middle of combat (you lose the turn and MP), so you train in it to minimize the failure rate to avoid that happening. Buff spells, due to the nature of having a duration, make it more useful to cast prior to combat (or outside LOS) to avoid losing a turn while a monster is in LOS. Thus, failure rate only needs to be the bare minimum needed to cast it, making sure you won't get bad miscast effects, then recasting until it works. It also makes better use of your MP outside of combat: why let it sit at 100℅ with no buffs when you could have a buff and 90℅, regen most of it before you see an enemy, and also not waste a turn at the start of the fight casting a buff? Attack spells don't have this problem because there is nothing to attack outside of combat (except for Delayed Fireball, I guess, which I also don't like as a spell). That's not the only solution. All you have to do is have a randomized check for spell failure, as if you were re-casting it on yourself without bugging the player. So if you want to get naked, cast the buff, and then put your armor back on then you risk exploding yourself during combat and becoming a horrible glowing mutant. At high spell failure rates it becomes definitely not worth it, at mid it's a trade off, and at high there's no penalty. You can eliminate the annoyance while keeping buffs by including three simple buff mechanics: 1. They take a chunk of permanent MP depending on casting power. At max power they might take 1/2 spell level to 1 per spell level. At min power they might take double or triple, the exact numbers would need some thought. This encourages maxing out casting power for primary casters or people who want many buffs, while it lets hybrids have there favorite one or two buffs taking up their whole MP bar. 2. Have the system check for spell failure routinely. This encourages buffers to have a low failure chance, or else they will routinely explode, just like in the game now. 3. Increase hunger rate for each buff, as a function of spell hunger. This encourages raising spellcasting+INT, limiting the number of constant buffs, or finding a solution to hunger. Now you have non-annoying buffs that still engage the same exact systems they did before when you had to cast them on yourself constantly.
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Dec 14, 2016 18:12
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brainwrinkle posted:It's really silly to have Ogre enemies nearly universally carry Great Clubs or Great Spiked Clubs and have the player class have a negative aptitude. At +3 it takes 14,500 skill xp to hit minimum delay on a GSC. Twice that at -1. It now takes so much more xp to get your GSC below 1.0 delay that you could have taken Fighting from 12 to 22. And by the time you hit min delay you could have also taken Dodging from 10 to 16-17.
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Dec 14, 2016 18:13
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Speleothing posted:No they weren't. They were valuable for lots of players, particularly melee types, who had time to cast a spell or two between seeing a dangerous enemy and engaging. They were also a good investment of spell levels for people who had lvl 8 & 9 attack spells online and needed to up their survivability quickly. casting specific spells at the start of every fight is also pretty annoying, just because there are so many fights; a sequence of buffs to apply every time is also annoying, with or without 'out of combat' casting shenanigans. what you really want is for buffs to be situationally relevant, so you have to turn your brain on and figure out if they're appropriate tools. spectral weapon is an okay example of this; song of slaying is a better one. ponderozo's was intended to fall into this category but i think i may have failed there. if we wanted spell skills to give +defenses, it would be simpler and more appropriate to create items or egos that give defenses scaling with spell skills, or to just make spell skills give defenses automatically. the former has been suggested before and rejected as 'not actually wanted'; i suspect the latter would be as well. it's still a more useful course of discussion than calling for the return of old buffs, however. Araganzar posted:See, you are probably saying that as satire or others are thinking this is satire. But just in case you didn't know, this has already been proposed, coded, given an experimental branch on CBRO, playtested, and abandoned. 2 years ago. someday i'm gonna have another shot at this. i was the original ideas guy for this god! i mean, i didn't bother to implement it, and then someone else implemented it and found it wasn't that fun... but that doesn't mean my version would be! IronicDongz posted:no, it's a "these were actually annoying yet optimal for actual human beings playing the game" argument. i miss freezing aura, because you could use it with ?bw to get a guaranteed freezing weapon. (then immediately amnesia the spell, of course.) those were the days...
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Dec 14, 2016 18:18
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People feeling that they're losing out for not doing something stupid and tedious for minimal gain is never going to sell me on removing a feature wholesale rather than leaving it as is and later on modifying the offending spell/race/class/whatever. I don't care if someone is going to strip down before each fight (risking discovery and brutal murder), stick on a bunch of +int items (wasting inventory space that could hold something actually useful) and cast a spell that they can't renew mid-fight if things go south. I feel the same way about rods: Its always a good idea for me to carry and use them but its a pain in the rear end to have to keep switching to them and they eat up recharge scrolls if I want them to be effective most of the time, but I don't think they should be removed.
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Dec 14, 2016 18:18
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That's the point, that Ogres have xp problems which aren't solved by making it harder to kill things.
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Dec 14, 2016 18:18
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Carcer posted:People feeling that they're losing out for not doing something stupid and tedious for minimal gain is never going to sell me on removing a feature wholesale rather than leaving it as is and later on modifying the offending spell/race/class/whatever. what if you had rod effects, but they weren't a pain in the rear end to use
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Dec 14, 2016 18:19
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I think we call those lamps, phials, and sacks
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Dec 14, 2016 18:21
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| # ? May 13, 2024 23:11 |
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Rods aren't as tedious as recasting ozocubos armour every 20 steps.
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Dec 14, 2016 18:21
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