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Actually why am I OK with recasting vitalisation over and over but not ozocubos? I guess because for vit it is more like "hey zin help me beat the poo poo out of these heathens, thanks".
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Dec 14, 2016 18:25
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also vit has a piety cost at least (even if it's tiny)
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Dec 14, 2016 18:31
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Sometimes things are just fun because they sound cool.
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Dec 14, 2016 18:35
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Fitzy Fitz posted:Sometimes things are just fun because they sound cool. I really enjoy the whole concept of zin. "I am richer and purer than all of you, and I am going to make sure you spend your last moments hearing all about it."
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Dec 14, 2016 18:37
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These look good at first glance (other than balancing around food, yuck), but also looks like it may take a lot of effort to implement and balance properly. Sometimes, things are removed because the amount of effort required to fix them is substantially larger than removing it. Other times, it is because consensus towards a solution is mixed, and removal fixes the issue temporarily for the short term until a proper solution is found. If you really want something changed in Crawl, try asking a member of the dev team (if you can't get an answer here, try the #crawl-dev IRC) on willingness to accept a patch/pull request that does this, and go make it! I'm not trying to be rude by saying this, but having the code ready to be added immediately and somebody on the dev team batting for you can go a lot farther than just brainstorming/proposing it (see how much progress on fixing Malmutate there has been since I started bitching and not actually contributing a physical solution, for example  ).
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Dec 14, 2016 18:41
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PleasingFungus posted:what if you had rod effects, but they weren't a pain in the rear end to use I'd like it if you could use them like wands, but I can stomach the idea of them remaining in the game as they are until they're altered in some way.
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Dec 14, 2016 18:41
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Couldn't you still have failure rates with mana reserved buffs.
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Dec 14, 2016 18:43
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Floodkiller posted:These look good at first glance (other than balancing around food, yuck), but also looks like it may take a lot of effort to implement and balance properly. Sometimes, things are removed because the amount of effort required to fix them is substantially larger than removing it. Other times, it is because consensus towards a solution is mixed, and removal fixes the issue temporarily for the short term until a proper solution is found. The hunger thing is just re-creating what's already there, if you want to buff yourself all the time and casting it causes hunger, you'll get hungry. I'd support cutting out hunger and then making mummies less lovely. I don't know about writing crawl code, I'm not a programmer so it's a bit outside my skill set. I'm just pointing out that there is a solution out there that fixes buffs without removing them. I do think malmutate is loving garbage. I'm also annoyed that half the enemies in the late game can cast haste but the player needs a potion or wand.
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Dec 14, 2016 18:57
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Floodkiller posted:These look good at first glance (other than balancing around food, yuck), but also looks like it may take a lot of effort to implement and balance properly. Sometimes, things are removed because the amount of effort required to fix them is substantially larger than removing it. I'd say there's also deeper issues with how much 'spare' XP dedicated melee characters get, how there's somewhat early breakpoints for a lot of skills (like overcoming shield penalties and hitting the minimum delay for weapons), no real benefit for training more than one weapon skill (with crosstraining actually making this worse)and how valuable strength is for casting in armor. Pretty much everyone other than Trog followers benefit from at least a bit of dabbling in spells and you don't sacrifice very much to get some basic utility like blink or regeneration. So to really 'fix' it on a higher level there needs to be a bigger melee toolbox and a harder distinction between dedicated armored/tanky melee and dedicated caster such that you really can't hybridize those two styles. That extra space would allow for lightly armored hybrids fitting into the skald/arcane marksman/enchanter/transmuter styles to exist as their own things that pick and choose a few things to specialize in. But that'd take something drastic like replacing the current weapon skills with fighting styles, adding spell-like abilities that use those styles for success/power (like a taunt that makes an enemy want to push their way into melee, or a disengage melee attack that bounces you back a few tiles if it connects), and tinkering with weapon base types, aptitudes, bla bla bla. Easier to just whine and spitball shitposts.
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Dec 14, 2016 19:41
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mormonpartyboat posted:I'd say there's also deeper issues with how much 'spare' XP dedicated melee characters get, how there's somewhat early breakpoints for a lot of skills (like overcoming shield penalties and hitting the minimum delay for weapons), no real benefit for training more than one weapon skill (with crosstraining actually making this worse)and how valuable strength is for casting in armor. Pretty much everyone other than Trog followers benefit from at least a bit of dabbling in spells and you don't sacrifice very much to get some basic utility like blink or regeneration. I personally consider this to be a feature, not a bug. (It's also one of the way that heavy armours are balanced!)
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Dec 14, 2016 20:12
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Carcer posted:That's literally the HOM argument. It annoyed you if you didn't use it because you knew it was advantageous to do so but didn't want to put up withthe busywork of having to recast the spell whenever a fight was imminent.
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Dec 14, 2016 20:46
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it has blown my mind from when I first started playing this game that there are people who look at it and think "nothing should be cut from this" crawl has gotten a lot better in this regard over the years but it still has quite a bit of bloat. adding, preserving and tweaking things are not the only things devs can and should do. some things should go. like, for example, casting stoneskin all the loving time or learning brand spells just to guarantee you'll get the brand you want when you use a brand scroll etc etc brainwrinkle posted:It's really silly to have Ogre enemies nearly universally carry Great Clubs or Great Spiked Clubs and have the player class have a negative aptitude.
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Dec 14, 2016 20:49
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Can anything other than Ogres and giant type enemies actually wield GC/GSC? They're sort of ogre's "cultural" weapons and suddenly sucking in them is weird.IronicDongz posted:it has blown my mind from when I first started playing this game that there are people who look at it and think "nothing should be cut from this" If you don't want to play with something thats in the game you can just not play with that thing. If I want to play high elves now I have to stick to 0.19 and never play a newer version, unless they get added back in again at some point. I liked high elves and the charm spells. You didn't (at least the charms part), and that's fine, but you can just pretend high elves or charms don't exist and never use them. I can't ignore that they're gone and I can't play as one of my favorite races unless I stick to 0.19 forever. Even if I learned to code and started submitting stuff to the dev team I doubt I'd win an argument to get them added back in.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:12
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Mana reserve and each time your buff is checked, do a chance for the buff to drop based on your respective skill level.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:17
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That's false equivalency. Demonspawn are equally good with all weapons. When is the last time you've seen an Ogre (monster) use a staff? It's now equally good at them as the standard GSC!
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Dec 14, 2016 21:19
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Carcer posted:Can anything other than Ogres and giant type enemies actually wield GC/GSC? They're sort of ogre's "cultural" weapons and suddenly sucking in them is weird. Trolls can at -1 but you are influenced by their Claws and Unarmed apt of 0 to not go in that direction. I think Formicids used to early in their development but it was dropped pretty quickly. EDIT: After taking a look at the overall aptitudes again, this above statement is wrong.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:25
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Carcer posted:Can anything other than Ogres and giant type enemies actually wield GC/GSC? They're sort of ogre's "cultural" weapons and suddenly sucking in them is weird. I don't think we're going to get a better explanation than "I don't personally play this race. Also, I don't like the Tolkien influence so I'm arbitrarily removing a small fraction of it while ignoring the rest." I know constantly evolving games are a weird thing, but it's tone deaf to remove something completely optional that a lot of people enjoy.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:29
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We've engaged the near exact same argument about the Mountain Dwarf removal (and the related stat shuffle of races like Minotaur) way back when so my stance is we'll weather this change just like that one.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:35
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Sage Grimm posted:Trolls can at -1 but you are influenced by their Claws and Unarmed apt of 0 to not go in that direction. I think Formicids used to early in their development but it was dropped pretty quickly. Similarly, unless it changed too, you are incentivized as an ogre to not use clubs because their Polearms is now better than it (at 0), and if you're going to commit to a weapon type that takes a ton of XP you may as well pick the one that costs less. Apparently their Staves got changed to 0 in this change, too, so lajatangs are also a solid option.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:38
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Fitzy Fitz posted:I don't think we're going to get a better explanation than "I don't personally play this race..." gammafunk, the dev responsible for the removal, has played over two thousand high elf games. he's literally spent over one thousand hours of his life just playing high elves. i'm somewhat terrified, but i'm also reasonably confident that he knows his elves.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:38
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That explains why he's sick of it!
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Dec 14, 2016 21:39
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Once a buff spell has no hunger cost then maybe it should be a permanent buff, or have an extra tick past hunger:none which extends spell duration indefinitely. That way they aren't op to begin with but aren't useless later on. Chuck in a few more monsters with dispell maybe to keep people on their toes. At the moment I bind 's' to 'zao' once a good buff spell or summon is at hungerless status and use s to autoexplore.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:39
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I'm on board with removing Tolkien influence in the game! I'm just sad to see "good bow apts" removed from everything but Centaur. It feels like there is no other outlet for these feelings besides making GBS threads up the DCSS thread by complaining.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:40
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Fitzy Fitz posted:That explains why he's sick of it! :P brainwrinkle posted:I'm on board with removing Tolkien influence in the game! I'm just sad to see "good bow apts" removed from everything but Centaur. It feels like there is no other outlet for these feelings besides making GBS threads up the DCSS thread by complaining. i personally want to remove good bow apts from every race, and also bow apts, and also bows as a player weapon (along with crossbows and slings). sadly the other devs disagree...
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Dec 14, 2016 21:42
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Movement other than auto-explore should be removed when no monster is in LOS. It's super tedious to explore a whole level that way and people can spend a ridiculous amount of time using it to reduce their turncounts.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:45
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I think removing "Tolkien influence" from the game is a really stupid goal to aim for. Besides, you need to have those traditional races kicking around as a comparison point for all the weirder ones. PleasingFungus posted:i personally want to remove good bow apts from every race, and also bow apts, and also bows as a player weapon (along with crossbows and slings). sadly the other devs disagree... You're supposed to be the dev I trust 
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Dec 14, 2016 21:46
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Carcer posted:Even if I learned to code and started submitting stuff to the dev team I doubt I'd win an argument to get them added back in. You also have the option to create your own branch, and if the only thing you care about is high elves, you probably just need to learn git to exclude any updates related to the removal of high elves. The species_data code is actually pretty modular and simple compared to what it used to be, and high elves don't have any special abilities that could be deleted, so it should be relatively easy to maintain. Adding the Charms spells back in might be a bit more work, however.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:47
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PleasingFungus posted:i personally want to remove good bow apts from every race, and also bow apts, and also bows as a player weapon (along with crossbows and slings). sadly the other devs disagree... Why?
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Dec 14, 2016 21:49
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I really don't mean to be a whiny dick to the devs. They're doing great work making a fun game, and I know it's all voluntary. I'll shut up about it.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:56
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SettingSun posted:We've engaged the near exact same argument about the Mountain Dwarf removal (and the related stat shuffle of races like Minotaur) way back when so my stance is we'll weather this change just like that one. Yes, we'll acknowledge that this change is bad for the game and that the game is worse off for it, get called whiny children yet again by the devteam that so graciously deigns to grace us with their presence, and nothing good will come of it. But hey, at least this time there's one positive aspect to it: gently caress elves.
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Dec 14, 2016 21:57
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Fitzy Fitz posted:I really don't mean to be a whiny dick to the devs. They're doing great work making a fun game, and I know it's all voluntary. I think we're all in the same boat. I love this game and appreciatethe work that goes into it. But sometimes there are changes and decisions that make you wonder why. I'm not angry by any stretch but Crawl is really gaining a reputation as a game that loves to cut things that look really big, while adding lots of little things behind the scenes that most people never get to see. I'm still irritated at the rMut changes, though because those loving sucked FulsomFrank fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Dec 14, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 22:00
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Ugly John posted:Yes, we'll acknowledge that this change is bad for the game and that the game is worse off for it, get called whiny children yet again by the devteam that so graciously deigns to grace us with their presence, and nothing good will come of it. You're right, we got Octopodes and Felids out of this deal. (And Formicids)
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Dec 14, 2016 22:04
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Carcer posted:Why? even after all the improvements made to it over the years, ranged combat is an unfortunate combination of fiddly and non-tactical. fiddly when you have to worry about picking up ammo, switching ammo types, or switching to melee to conserve ammo; non-tactical, since you can hit anything onscreen, and so you lose most of the positioning play that comes with e.g. melee. (let's not even get into the joy that is kiting as a centaur...) there are interesting elements to ranged combat. if you try to drill down and get a purer version of those interesting elements, however, you tend to end up a system that pretty much duplicates either spells, wands, or rods. (i can expand on this if you want.) there are a lot of ways for crawl players to engage enemies at range, and pretty much everything other than 'ranged weapons' does it better!
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Dec 14, 2016 22:05
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FulsomFrank posted:I think we're all in the same boat. I love this game and appreciatethe work that goes into it. But sometimes there are changes and decisions that make you wonder why. I'm not angry by any stretch but Crawl is really gaining a reputation as a game that loves to cut things that look really big, while adding lots of little things behind the scenes that most people never get to see. I don't agree with a lot of the removals, but whatever. The last few versions of the game have been polished enough that I can go back and play them if I want to use haste or elves again. I play Crawl because it's fun. The races and classes, for example, are intentionally not balanced because it's fun to play easy, gimmick, and challenge combos depending on what's fun for you. High elves are fun because you're an elf and you get to do elf stuff. That's the extent of my perspective on that. Removing it because of lore reasons or comparison to other races falls flat to me, because those didn't have anything to do with why I would play an elf. It was just a fun thing, and now there is one fewer fun thing.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:05
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I realize I never provided my opinion on removing high elves: meh. I would probably say the same thing about mountain dwarves if I was playing when that happened. I'm slightly more upset about the Ogre change. I feel M&F was a bit too high, but it probably should have been lowered to +1, or 0 at the lowest (matching the Throwing aptitude at least).
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Dec 14, 2016 22:07
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PleasingFungus posted:gammafunk, the dev responsible for the removal, has played over two thousand high elf games. he's literally spent over one thousand hours of his life just playing high elves. i'm somewhat terrified, but i'm also reasonably confident that he knows his elves. Edit: also someone should say that "gently caress Tolkien" is not a design goal or anything (it's a lofty aspiration, no question about that). Flavour is a really minor thing in Crawl, and I'd sum up the current stance like this: If there's a choice between equally good options, take the non-Tolkien one. That's not at all the same as actively trying to remove Tolkienesque content, that'd be a major undertaking. dpeg fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Dec 14, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 22:10
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I liked high elves but I'll try to stay positive by reminding myself that every removed race makes room for the eventual crab race
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Dec 14, 2016 22:15
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The thing about the High Elf change is that its just another one of those changes that ultimately serves no purpose. HE played differently from other species that saying they caused bloat with their few similarities is pretty silly. Meanwhile there really wasn't much functional difference between Dwarves and Orcs/Minotaurs.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:17
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Lost a Minotaur zin paladin on v5 getting swarmed. Got hammered by like 4 black dragons with no Rn I was using a Trishula and liked it a lot until that point. Poking people from distance was useful until v5 when a 2hander would have been better. The 20+ shields was nice tho.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:18
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Floodkiller posted:You also have the option to create your own branch, and if the only thing you care about is high elves, you probably just need to learn git to exclude any updates related to the removal of high elves. The species_data code is actually pretty modular and simple compared to what it used to be, and high elves don't have any special abilities that could be deleted, so it should be relatively easy to maintain. Not if we want our wins recorded online. Or want spectators. Or want to post our morgues for advice.
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