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Not a Step posted:I dunno. Promising to be Obama's third term was the height of 'America is Already Great'. Nah, not even Obama was saying "America is already great" or anything stupid like that. He's been saying, "The status quo is bad, but it's gotten better under me." The whole "America is already great" nonsense was unique to Clinton's terrible, terrible campaign strategy. e: To be clear, I'm not saying that there weren't better ways of turning out the vote. But I don't think one can count running on Obama's coattails as a significant mistake. A missed opportunity, at most. e2: ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:oh loving christ is Majorian trying to argue my point now? gently caress this I'm out, y'all are right I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but I guarantee you I'm not. Majorian has issued a correction as of 01:16 on Dec 15, 2016 |
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Dec 15, 2016 01:11
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:edit: gently caress it, never mind Lmfao
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Dec 15, 2016 01:12
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Majorian posted:Trump was doing pretty shittily among Evangelicals until he started harping on abortion-happy SCOTUS picks. They broke pretty late for him. Do you really think there is a world in which Evangelical voters do not pull the lever for a Republican, even if its one they personally despise? My extended family's facebook posts are full of poo poo like 'I don't morally agree with Trump, but Hillary and socialism must be defeated at all costs' or prayers that Trump finds his moral awakening once in office. Trump was never going to not win the Evangelical vote. Literal Satan could probably win the Evangelical vote with an R next to his name. ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:although I will say it's cool y'all totally freaked out and started screaming false flag at the suggestion that maybe someone somewhere in a union might be corrupt and that that's a bad thing, y'all are great spokesmen and will surely be able to make convincing arguments to people who don't already agree with you If it makes you feel any better I went to an elite liberal arts college and took policy courses with a bunch of woke kids of all races (but mostly white) who nevertheless genuinely believed welfare cheats were a serious problem we needed to combat
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Dec 15, 2016 01:16
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Majorian posted:Do you really think that's why Clinton lost? That's one of the few things she did right. Jesus dude. I'd say associating herself with Obama was a very good idea, but saying she did it right is going a bit far. She cast herself as the "pragmatic" continuation of his actual presidency, which people are very blah about relative to Obama as a person and as a symbol. She might have had more success casting herself as a pugnacious renewal of the promises of his initial candidacy and someone who intended to build on his achievements. The plausibility might be a bit of an issue for her, and it would have been a tight rope to walk, and it would probably rely on her actual beliefs/personality being quite different than they are, but that would have been an Obama-embracing message of change and renewal instead of the maintenance of an unappetizing status quo. LGD has issued a correction as of 01:18 on Dec 15, 2016 |
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Dec 15, 2016 01:16
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Rich people on the border don't report their mexican-side businesses to the IRS so they report like 100k in income a year, but actually take home something closer to a million lol one of those was an old friend and he got reduced lunch in school, while I paid full cos im a sucka
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Dec 15, 2016 01:18
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I come in here and mention "voter fraud" and all y'all freak out and start screaming at me and refuse to even acknowledge that it even exists. All I'm saying is, you need to learn to combat these things with MESSAGING or we'll never get anywhere. *faaaaarts*
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Dec 15, 2016 01:18
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Not a Step posted:If it makes you feel any better I went to an elite liberal arts college and took policy courses with a bunch of woke kids of all races (but mostly white) who nevertheless genuinely believed welfare cheats were a serious problem we needed to combat this poo poo still happens among my ostensibly left-leaning friends. too often I hear them get pissed off about "welfare queens" and "medicaid scammers" and I have to carefully explain why, despite some people taking advantage of the system, those systems are still good, should be expanded and better enforced, and are a necessity
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Dec 15, 2016 01:19
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LGD posted:I'd say associating herself with Obama was a very good idea, but saying she did it right is going a bit far. Yeah, I meant that broadly. It was the right overall strategy; the implementation, however, was poo poo, as you say.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:23
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Nonsense posted:Rich people on the border don't report their mexican-side businesses to the IRS so they report like 100k in income a year, but actually take home something closer to a million lol LUCKY DUCKY!!!
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Dec 15, 2016 01:24
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i love the whole america is already great poo poo. she said this and i bet on the same nightly news on a local station also reported a mass shooting, a cop shooting a black guy leading to riots in cities, a poor ecomany with little jobs, and poo poo payed jobs. saying to us america is already great is just as insulting as any hate speach trump farted out.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:24
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drat welfare queens pushing through the f-35
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Dec 15, 2016 01:24
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RENEGADE CUCKSKY posted:I come in here and mention "voter fraud" and all y'all freak out and start screaming at me and refuse to even acknowledge that it even exists.  Serf posted:this poo poo still happens among my ostensibly left-leaning friends. too often I hear them get pissed off about "welfare queens" and "medicaid scammers" and I have to carefully explain why, despite some people taking advantage of the system, those systems are still good, should be expanded and better enforced, and are a necessity  since they're often the kind of people who flake on every cool drunken meetup that's about the part where i punch them in the gut and never speak to them again as a result the few friends i have left are good friends
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Dec 15, 2016 01:24
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Serf posted:this poo poo still happens among my ostensibly left-leaning friends. too often I hear them get pissed off about "welfare queens" and "medicaid scammers" and I have to carefully explain why, despite some people taking advantage of the system, those systems are still good, should be expanded and better enforced, and are a necessity There's a reason I fall back so often on "every system that exists is vulnerable to corruption" as a refrain. People get so hung up on solving an unsolvable problem that they completely unravel anything good that can come out of a system, when instead the only useful approach is to acknowledge that bad things can happen and have a plan for when they do. (See also: unions and corruption therein).
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Dec 15, 2016 01:25
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Captain_Maclaine posted:LUCKY DUCKY!!! America owns
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Dec 15, 2016 01:26
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docbeard posted:There's a reason I fall back so often on "every system that exists is vulnerable to corruption" as a refrain. People get so hung up on solving an unsolvable problem that they completely unravel anything good that can come out of a system, when instead the only useful approach is to acknowledge that bad things can happen and have a plan for when they do.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:26
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Majorian posted:He's been saying, "The status quo is bad, but it's gotten better under me."
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Dec 15, 2016 01:26
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Not a Step posted:Do you really think there is a world in which Evangelical voters do not pull the lever for a Republican, even if its one they personally despise? If you put a gun to their head and force them into a polling booth, sure, they'll vote GOP every time. But barring that, they're otherwise not going to actually get off their fat asses and turn out for someone like Trump, unless he does exactly what he did and scare them into it with images of baby-killing justices who will force everyone to gay marry. quote:My extended family's facebook posts are full of poo poo like 'I don't morally agree with Trump, but Hillary and socialism must be defeated at all costs' or prayers that Trump finds his moral awakening once in office. That just underlines my original point, though: Trump used a shitton of negative campaigning against Clinton, and it was effective. The Right's enduring, personal hatred of Clinton was a big part of why she lost. The whole notion that Clinton ran a significantly more negative campaign than Trump just doesn't hold water. Trump ran negatively too - and it seems that he did it better. (or had a more receptive audience) AHungryRobot posted:Well, for millions of Americans that's not necessarily true. Especially if you look at things like real wage growth. Right, but the point is, Obama's rhetoric didn't suggest that everything was fine and hunky-dory for all Americans; Clinton's kind of did, and that implication was fatal to her prospects. Majorian has issued a correction as of 01:31 on Dec 15, 2016 |
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Dec 15, 2016 01:27
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Serf posted:this poo poo still happens among my ostensibly left-leaning friends. too often I hear them get pissed off about "welfare queens" and "medicaid scammers" and I have to carefully explain why, despite some people taking advantage of the system, those systems are still good, should be expanded and better enforced, and are a necessity And really if they scam $100,000 out of the system its still not a big deal. Corporate America scams more than that as a rounding error. People don't seem to get that all these anti-cheat measures cost more to implement than ever got scammed and makes it harder for people legitimately in need to access services. My mom and my aunt used to go shopping together because my aunt could buy steaks but not loving toilet paper with her food stamps, because some pearl clutcher somewhere wanted to make sure poors could only buy food and nothing else. People need to learn that any complex system is going to have a certain amount of graft, and yeah you confront it where you find it but you dont tear down the whole goddamn thing or build mile high walls around needed services. Yes you root out corruption where you find it. No you dont audit every person on the planet down to the penny. Theres reasonable loving middle grounds. I got real mad several times in my policy/econ classes because my fellow students were real dumb and virtually none of them had even second hand experience with poverty.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:28
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look, all im saying is universal health care has really long waiting times. so maybe we should learn toaddress that before we consider advocating for publicly funded health care. What? why's everyone screaming at me?
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Dec 15, 2016 01:29
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my cousin knows a dude who had to wait for TWO MONTHS to get a gunshot wound treated
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Dec 15, 2016 01:30
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Majorian posted:If you put a gun to their head and force them into a polling booth, sure, they'll vote GOP every time. But barring that, they're otherwise not going to actually get off their fat asses and turn out for someone like Trump, unless he does exactly what he did and scare them into it with images of baby-killing justices who will force everyone to gay marry. so basically they won't vote republican unless the republican makes literally any overtures to them by saying a couple of the approved magic words? Yea cool hot take dude, no one knew that before
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Dec 15, 2016 01:30
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RENEGADE CUCKSKY posted:look, all im saying is universal health care has really long waiting times. so maybe we should learn toaddress that before we consider advocating for publicly funded health care. What? why's everyone screaming at me?
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Dec 15, 2016 01:30
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what I'm saying is UHC and food stamps for all. people will complain, but eventually they'll get used to it and pay for it by making the corporations and wealthy pay their fair share in taxes
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Dec 15, 2016 01:32
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Tatum Girlparts posted:so basically they won't vote republican unless the republican makes literally any overtures to them by saying a couple of the approved magic words? If that were the case, literally any of the other GOP primary candidates would have won over Trump. They mouthed the same anti-abortion, anti-gay litany as he did. His negative campaigning worked because he worked hard at it, and was good at it, in spite of everything else that he had going against him among social conservatives.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:33
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Majorian posted:If that were the case, literally any of the other GOP primary candidates would have won over Trump. His negative campaigning worked because he worked hard at it, and was good at it, in spite of everything else that he had going against him among social conservatives. evangelical voters are, typically, white first and everything else second. Their entire movement as a major tentpole of the GOP began as morals crusading against the drat minorities and foreigners. Trump's message was always perfectly fine for them.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:35
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hot take: voters do not fit into discrete categories which only have a limited set of concerns that appeal to them, voters are complex ideological actors, so people from the 'wrong group' voting trump probably voted for him for the same reason others did
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Dec 15, 2016 01:35
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Majorian posted:Do you really think that's why Clinton lost? That's one of the few things she did right. Jesus dude. when it ends in poo poo like "america is already great", yes, i absolutely loving do. running on obama's coattails might have worked in the primary but i don't think it's hard to argue that it did jack poo poo for her in the general among the groups she actually needed to win
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Dec 15, 2016 01:36
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How does the D&D aftermath thread talk about this one?
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Dec 15, 2016 01:36
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Majorian posted:No, but it made enough of a difference to get him elected. Without the bogeymanning of Clinton's pro-choice SCOTUS choices, Evangelicals wouldn't have turned out to vote for Trump. Speaking for my mom and probably a lot of her facebook friends, Trump's bit in one of the debates about a late-term abortion went over really well with this group and made the decision for them.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:37
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Tatum Girlparts posted:evangelical voters are, typically, white first and everything else second. Their entire movement as a major tentpole of the GOP began as morals crusading against the drat minorities and foreigners. Trump's message was always perfectly fine for them. And yet big chunks of their demographic didn't show any signs of turning out for him until late in the race. My point is, negative campaigning had a pretty significant effect. Acting like running negative ads against Trump was a mistake, is dumb.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:38
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Tatum Girlparts posted:so basically they won't vote republican unless the republican makes literally any overtures to them by saying a couple of the approved magic words? That should be the real take away from this. There are *lots* of voters who will turn out if you just say the magic words. On both sides. My deeply Evangelical grandma will acknowledge that Trump has no moral fiber and is a terrible person, BUT he will stop the even more evil socialists and stop the baby killing so she'll vote for him and hope god touches his heart or whatever. If Clinton had said the Democratic magic words I really think she could have pushed turnout enough to win it. Anyone even remotely political active barring some trolls on reddit held their nose and voted for Hillary because the alternative was so much worse. She just needed to activate a few more people but couldnt bring herself to do it for whatever reason.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:38
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Bit of a tangent, but since evangelical voters have been brought up it feels relevant, but all I want for Christmas is a big ol' Liberation Theology Revival with some good old-fashioned preaching about Love and Peace and Good News For The Poor and the Sermon on the Mount and Whatsoever You Have Done To The Least Of These You Have Done To Me and how the Prosperity Gospel is Literal Farts From Satan's Butt.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:38
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Not a Step posted:If Clinton had said the Democratic magic words I really think she could have pushed turnout enough to win it.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:40
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Majorian posted:And yet big chunks of their demographic didn't show any signs of turning out for him until late in the race. well yea no poo poo man, and lots of them didn't show up at all still, and hell a few even voted for Clinton. demos aren't hiveminds. Yea his "THEY RIP THE BABY OUT" stuff was his way to get a few of the holdouts but he hardly ever had a real ~evangelical problem~ as a voting bloc because he appealed to them like he appealed to most of his other voters.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:40
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Oh Snapple! posted:Speaking for my mom and probably a lot of her facebook friends, Trump's bit in one of the debates about a late-term abortion went over really well with this group and made the decision for them. Yup, there you go. Negative campaigning at work. Not a Step posted:That should be the real take away from this. There are *lots* of voters who will turn out if you just say the magic words. On both sides. My deeply Evangelical grandma will acknowledge that Trump has no moral fiber and is a terrible person, BUT he will stop the even more evil socialists and stop the baby killing so she'll vote for him and hope god touches his heart or whatever. If Clinton had said the Democratic magic words I really think she could have pushed turnout enough to win it. Anyone even remotely political active barring some trolls on reddit held their nose and voted for Hillary because the alternative was so much worse. She just needed to activate a few more people but couldnt bring herself to do it for whatever reason.  Which is one thing that always stuns me about a lot of Dem candidates and activists, centrist or progressive: their inability to bite the bullet and say the right loving magic words.Tatum Girlparts posted:well yea no poo poo man, and lots of them didn't show up at all still, and hell a few even voted for Clinton. demos aren't hiveminds. Yea his "THEY RIP THE BABY OUT" stuff was his way to get a few of the holdouts but he hardly ever had a real ~evangelical problem~ as a voting bloc because he appealed to them like he appealed to most of his other voters. But no one's arguing that most Evangelicals weren't going to vote for him either way. What I'm arguing is that his negative campaigning boosted his numbers with Evangelicals enough to put him over the top.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:40
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docbeard posted:Bit of a tangent, but since evangelical voters have been brought up it feels relevant, but all I want for Christmas is a big ol' Liberation Theology Revival with some good old-fashioned preaching about Love and Peace and Good News For The Poor and the Sermon on the Mount and Whatsoever You Have Done To The Least Of These You Have Done To Me and how the Prosperity Gospel is Literal Farts From Satan's Butt. I think the best example of this never going to happen is on Fox earlier today some lady was praising Trump for 'turning Merry Christmas into a curse word, to really shove at PC people'.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:41
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docbeard posted:Bit of a tangent, but since evangelical voters have been brought up it feels relevant, but all I want for Christmas is a big ol' Liberation Theology Revival with some good old-fashioned preaching about Love and Peace and Good News For The Poor and the Sermon on the Mount and Whatsoever You Have Done To The Least Of These You Have Done To Me and how the Prosperity Gospel is Literal Farts From Satan's Butt. [sotto voce] william barber my dude
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Dec 15, 2016 01:42
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Majorian posted:Yup, there you go. Negative campaigning at work. Like just to put this in perspective, I legitimately thought I had my mom sold on voting for Clinton by the day of the election. But when the time came to mark her ballot, that bit alone is what decided her vote. She had never actually discussed it with me at all whenever she asked me about my thoughts on the election, but the issue was there, and it mattered.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:42
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also while we're talking about trump having no actual problem with the white christian vote in general, reminder that 'we will say merry christmas again' was like, a sizable campaign promise of his.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:42
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I think the best example of this never going to happen is on Fox earlier today some lady was praising Trump for 'turning Merry Christmas into a curse word, to really shove at PC people'. er, alright lady if thats what does it for you, i guess. boy you... you sure stuck it to me.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:42
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