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So is the theory that this stuff is on the outside of a 130F steak as well, but it doesn't get a chance to bloom in 2 hours?
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Dec 13, 2016 03:26
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| # ? May 30, 2024 00:45 |
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That was my understanding of it http://www.amazingfoodmadeeasy.com/info/modernist-cooking-blog/more/why-do-you-boil-meat-before-sous-viding-lactobacillus
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Dec 13, 2016 04:38
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Isn't fish sauce made from lactofermented fish meat? Maybe you're on the verge of a numami
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Dec 13, 2016 04:45
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Moomami
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Dec 13, 2016 05:17
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Eeeewwwwmami.
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Dec 13, 2016 05:27
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AnonSpore posted:Look buddy just because you don't like green eggs and ham Sous Vide megathread: look buddy just because you don't like green eggs and ham
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Dec 13, 2016 06:04
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DangerZoneDelux posted:That was my understanding of it this article looks like a bunch of horseshit for real. pre boiling?? gently caress off I'd buy the argument that a copious amount of salt kills off the green monster. Maybe that's why Kenji is gonna die of hypertension soon.
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Dec 13, 2016 06:07
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Nah it's legit, which is part of the reason why the USDA "safe zone" is >140F
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Dec 13, 2016 07:05
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CrazyLittle posted:Nah it's legit, which is part of the reason why the USDA "safe zone" is >140F Isn't that 140F for an instant, though? Time and temp both matter for hitting the log reduction.
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Dec 13, 2016 10:33
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I did pork ribs for 48 hours at 135 once, as an experiment, and one of the bags came out with yellow slime. It smelled awful. No idea what the gently caress grew there, but jesus. Did not taste it.
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Dec 13, 2016 14:34
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a foolish pianist posted:I did pork ribs for 48 hours at 135 once, as an experiment, and one of the bags came out with yellow slime. It smelled awful. No idea what the gently caress grew there, but jesus. Sometimes this poo poo happens. I did a batch of short ribs a few months back, and one of the bags had obviously gotten contaminated with something that had lived long enough to cause a problem. Every other bag was pristine, but that one was swollen and when I opened I almost puked -- wife had to leave the apartment until the smell cleared.
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Dec 13, 2016 15:10
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yeah I'm never doing a multi day cook
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Dec 13, 2016 15:49
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Hell yes I tasted it, because I spend way too much of my time dealing with fermented products to be afraid of a little lactobacillus. It wasn't putrid, nor did it smell overly bad or have any gas production to speak of, and I've heard about the green color before. I've also done multi-day cooks without a pre-sear or boil and haven't had the green. I guess I've just been lucky? Next time I'll boil it a bit. Sorry for not taking pictures, I didn't realize it'd be such a novelty. You guys are probably imagining a greener color than it actually was.
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Dec 13, 2016 18:00
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SubG posted:I've posted the math before, but I just did a simple empirical test: Bring my SVS Demi up to temperature, measuring the water temperature with a Thermoworks probe thermometer, turning the Demi off and letting it sit for half an hour, then measuring the temperature again. I used the Demi under the assumption that the insulation would result in less radiative and conductive loss through the sides and bottom (compared to a Cambro), meaning that losses at the water surface would be a larger factor in the overall cooling. I did the test except with an electricity usage monitor and a different lid setup:  Using the lid I cut with a hole saw, I brought the temp up to 140°f, waited a few minutes for the temperature to stabilize and then started a stopwatch for an hour.  After 1 hour with the snug lid, the monitor reported 0.12 kilowatt hours of energy usage to maintain the temperature.  After 1 hour with ping pong balls, the monitor reported 0.14 kilowatt hours of usage, which ticked up to 15 a few seconds later.  After 1 hour with no lid, the monitor reported 0.25 kilowatt hours of usage to maintain temp. I think the discrepancy in our findings is because you cracked your lid open 10% which kinda seems like a pretty big opening. Even a scissored lid will probably expose less than 10% of the top to the open air. On top of that, most of the opening in a cut lid will be filled by the immersion circulator. I'm not a scientist but maybe at some point the lid traps in enough moisture and the air gets so humid that evaporation is slowed down, even if the surface of the water is in contact with the air? Either way, I agree that having any covering is way better than no covering at all. But even then, the difference comes out to fractions of a penny in terms of electricity usage over the course of an hour. I don't think the coverings are going to make a big difference in your electricity bill. The average rate per kilowatt/hour in the US is 12 cents, so after one hour of usage at 140°F, the lidded setup cost 1.44 cents to power, and the ping pong ball setup cost 1.68 cents to power, and the no-lid setup cost 3 cents to power. I think it might be more useful to see how fast a room temperature tub comes up to cooking temperature with or without a lid, since that would be more relevant to food safety. Also, checking to see how much water evaporates over a long cook with or without a lid since losing enough water to interrupt your cooking is a real concern. But it's late and I'm feeling lazy. I think most of us who've done long cooks have seen significant water loss without a covering and seen water levels maintained with a covering, so it's not like anyone needs convincing in that regard. Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Dec 14, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 10:00
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Ignore my post, it's fixed above now
Hopper fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Dec 14, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 10:27
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You posted right as I was fixing my mistake :p If you look closely at the monitor, you can see the decimal point edit: They don't run at full power the whole time, I think my bluetooth version maxes out at an official 750w, I'd see it jump to 760w when it was trying to get the water up to temp (about half an hour), but dropped down to a fraction afterwards to maintain temp. I only started the stopwatch once the water was at temp and the system was only maintaining that temp. Edit: one last one, plastic wrap actually slightly better than lid or balls, so cheapskates rejoice  Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Dec 14, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 10:33
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I nearly had a heart attack and was quickly rethinking my usage plans for my Anova there, hehe. Also I did see the decimal point, but I am REALLY poo poo at electronics, I don't even know how to read a meter... I wish I was kidding 
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Dec 14, 2016 11:06
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I was excited about this warm bath water food, until so many people reported green meat occurrences.
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Dec 14, 2016 12:08
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I've probably cooked 100 things, though only ~5 longer than 24 hours, and have never had a problem. FWIW.
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Dec 14, 2016 12:33
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Steve Yun posted:I'm not a scientist but maybe at some point the lid traps in enough moisture and the air gets so humid that evaporation is slowed down, even if the surface of the water is in contact with the air? Yeah I think that's called vapour pressure.
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Dec 14, 2016 13:20
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For those that cut holes in their gastronorm/cambro lids. Do you still use the clamp, or do you just drop the anova in the hole?
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Dec 14, 2016 13:32
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Texibus posted:I was excited about this warm bath water food, until so many people reported green meat occurrences. I've never had green meat in a year of using mine at least once a week.
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Dec 14, 2016 17:02
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Norns posted:I've never had green meat in a year of using mine at least once a week. It seems to only occur with a specific temperature range (130-1400), long cooks, and in areas where that bacteria is more prevalent in the air. I've never seen it, but typically when I do 48 hours short ribs at 131.5 I sear them first, so that may take care of it.
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Dec 14, 2016 17:27
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Horse Clocks posted:For those that cut holes in their gastronorm/cambro lids. I drop mine in the hole. I have round hole that just fits it and with the plastic bottom sitting on the container bottom, there is about 1/4 inch space between the lid and the Anova's thicker ring. So if I need to open the lid, I lift it up slightly and then turn it around the Anova to the side. Hopper fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Dec 14, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 18:44
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Texibus posted:I was excited about this warm bath water food, until so many people reported green meat occurrences. I've been using mine for almost 2 years and never had a problem. 99% of your cooks are under 8 hours so there's no risk and I've never cooked something at under 140F for longer than that.
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Dec 14, 2016 18:58
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Horse Clocks posted:For those that cut holes in their gastronorm/cambro lids. It pleases me to just drop it in the hole. Every time I look at the unused clamp it feels like victory.
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Dec 14, 2016 19:05
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Texibus posted:I was excited about this warm bath water food, until so many people reported green meat occurrences. You should also stop eating food, after all, many people reported getting trichinosis from pork, salmonella from chicken and lettuce, e. coli from assorted meats and produce.
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Dec 14, 2016 19:21
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Steve Yun posted:I think the discrepancy in our findings is because you cracked your lid open 10% which kinda seems like a pretty big opening. Even a scissored lid will probably expose less than 10% of the top to the open air. On top of that, most of the opening in a cut lid will be filled by the immersion circulator. The size of the opening(s) in the lid will affect the result, but it isn't going to be linear or anything like that. That is, you wouldn't expect to measure a 5% difference in the results in going from a lid that covers 90% of the surface to a lid that covers 95%, for example---because you're still venting a shitload of that water vapour. You would expect to see a more or less linear variation with the amount of surface covered by the ping pong balls, however (as the major mechanism at work is direct reduction in the surface area of the water). So minor differences in the geometry of the vessel (which will affect the packing efficiency of the balls) will have a more pronounced effect on the results than minor differences in the geometry of the lid. Another reason why you wouldn't expect even moderately different setups to produce identical results. If you wanted to improve the efficiency of the lid design, you could: add baffles to the underside of the lid to promote condensation (braising vessels, like dutch ovens, often have lids that are designed to increase the amount of surface area and to insure turbulent flow near the lid); put a gasket around the hole for the cooker (to make it more or less airtight), drill a different hole for venting, and through it put a tube from outside to near the surface of the water (this is how a good offset smoker is vented---you lose some straight up and out but most of the vapour in the chamber is forced to circulate around before venting); or (for something approaching theoretical max efficiency of this arrangement) make an airlock by putting a gasket around the IC hole and making another hole for venting (as above), make a stovepipe for the hole and place another tube concentric to it, then fill the bottom of the area between the two tubes with water and invert a cup or something over the stovepipe such that the lip of the cup is under the water (that is, more or less identical to an airlock jar for fermentation). I mean I want to make it clear that I'm not advocating that anyone do any of this nonsense, as (as we apparently agree) the difference is so small as to be not worth worrying about. But it's not like making poo poo too complicated to be practical is exactly off topic in the puddle machine thread. And as a final aside: I wouldn't put much trust in the numbers you're getting out of that Kill-A-Watt. Unless they've been substantially redesigned recently, they tend to be good for measuring resistive loads (like the heating element) but bad at measuring capacitive and inductive loads (like the impeller motor). This probably didn't have a huge effect on your results (since the motor runs constantly and only the heater cycles on and off) so any error is probably constant over time (instead of varying with the IC's duty cycle). Just for whatever that's worth.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:16
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dp
Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Dec 15, 2016 |
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Dec 15, 2016 01:37
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SubG posted:The size of the opening(s) in the lid will affect the result, but it isn't going to be linear or anything like that. That is, you wouldn't expect to measure a 5% difference in the results in going from a lid that covers 90% of the surface to a lid that covers 95%, for example---because you're still venting a shitload of that water vapour. quote:And as a final aside: I wouldn't put much trust in the numbers you're getting out of that Kill-A-Watt. Unless they've been substantially redesigned recently, they tend to be good for measuring resistive loads (like the heating element) but bad at measuring capacitive and inductive loads (like the impeller motor). This probably didn't have a huge effect on your results (since the motor runs constantly and only the heater cycles on and off) so any error is probably constant over time (instead of varying with the IC's duty cycle). Just for whatever that's worth. Sure, I'm not submitting this for any journals but if it's the same theoretical inaccuracy being applied equally to all 3-4 setups I did, it's still useful as a comparison between the covers. And even if it's off by a drastic amount (who knows since all the inaccuracy complaints I could find online were about the older model), it's still useful knowing that the electricity usage is in the general range of two or three pennies per hour, which lets us know that using a cover isn't useful from an energy cost standpoint.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:43
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Steve Yun posted:Linear or not, just consider that maybe a 10% hole in a cover with no IC in it isn't reflective of a common real world setup. Just due to the way a gas behaves the efficiency of a condenser arrangement in a non-airtight vessel is going to be far more dependent on the geometry of the vessel/condenser than the exact size of the opening (except in pathological cases, like when you're ending up limited by the gas velocity---as in a pressure cooker---or when you're more or less completely coupled to the environment---as in the case of a completely open lid). I can't tell you exactly where breakpoints are for this kind of setup, but I'm pretty drat confident that the overall effect size we're talking about is small compared to the amount of variability between various real-world setups we're trying to model. Which is where you stop worrying about poo poo when you're doing back-of-the-envelope estimates, which is basically what we're doing here. Steve Yun posted:Sure, I'm not submitting this for any journals but if it's the same theoretical inaccuracy being applied equally to all 3-4 setups I did, it's still useful as a comparison between the covers. That's why I said my data only weakly supports my theory---because the measured effect size isn't much larger than the variation between same-setup trials. What we've determined with some confidence is that the effect is small, but we really don't have the data to back up much of anything else.
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Dec 15, 2016 02:29
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I'm scratching my head here. How are domed lids with sideways vents helpful to people reading this thread who are using immersion circulators that are coming down from the top by design.
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Dec 15, 2016 03:46
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Steve Yun posted:I'm scratching my head here. How are domed lids with sideways vents helpful to people reading this thread who are using immersion circulators that are coming down from the top by design.
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Dec 15, 2016 04:08
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That doesn't answer my question though.
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Dec 15, 2016 04:39
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Steve Yun posted:That doesn't answer my question though.
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Dec 15, 2016 04:47
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You know what, nevermind. I've already spent too much time on something we both agree isn't a big deal.
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Dec 15, 2016 04:59
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Am I the only person that does ping pong balls and fitted lid?
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Dec 15, 2016 05:06
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People should just not use ping pong balls based on the annoyance of having to wash them afterwards
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Dec 15, 2016 05:09
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I'm planning on doing a rack of lamb next weekend. It's also the first time I'm using a vacuum sealer over Ziploc. Have any of you guys had issues with bones poking through a vacuum bag? Still super new at this and wasn't sure if it's a real worry.
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Dec 15, 2016 05:15
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| # ? May 30, 2024 00:45 |
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Feel the bones. Are they sharp? Double bag (or triple if they're extra pointy)
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Dec 15, 2016 05:21
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