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Pastrymancy posted:There's some distance, he hasn't been photographed doing a nazi salute. Makes his wearing a confederate flag a lot less amusing.
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Dec 14, 2016 11:03
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Jonas Albrecht posted:Ah okay. I was framing the statement as "the goals of black and white Americans are in direct competition with one another". I always thought the goal of white America (in an institutional sense) was to maintain black America as an underclass that wouldn't and couldn't compete with white America. This seems to be an overarching compromise of the post-Civil War era and beyond, as Reconstruction proved that white Americans couldn't handle blacks being their political and social equals without losing their loving minds over it. negromancer posted:Secondly, I didn't understand why black folks ever thought a dude raised by white people in a way a fraction of a fraction of black people have been raised, would ever take our side when it came down to it, would ever understand the black struggle, would have that connection, when he has absolutely no connection to blackness that wasn't forced on him by white America or is first-hand. He has as much of a connection to blackness as Bill Burr, aka his wife is black, can trace her lineage back to slavery, and can identify with black people through shared experience regardless of where she goes in this country. Sounds like we could have used Jesse Jackson. Except his term would have been undoubtedly cut short by an assassin's bullet. I get the feeling some people are gonna read this and think you're agitating for some form of Black Supremacy. 90s Solo Cup fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Dec 14, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 12:23
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Domestic Amuse posted:I always thought the goal of white America (in an institutional sense) was to maintain black America as an underclass that wouldn't and couldn't compete with white America. This seems to be an overarching compromise of the post-Civil War era and beyond, as Reconstruction proved that white Americans couldn't handle blacks being their political and social equals without losing their loving minds over it. Not so much Black Supremacy as Black Seperatism. I could see it coming from someone on the milder side of the Nation of Islam. Edit: And I don't mean that as a criticism or judgement, just as an observation. This is your place after all. Talmonis fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Dec 14, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 15:18
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Talmonis posted:Not so much Black Supremacy as Black Seperatism. I could see it coming from someone on the milder side of the Nation of Islam. I am an Afro-Pessimist, so there's that. Domestic Amuse posted:I always thought the goal of white America (in an institutional sense) was to maintain black America as an underclass that wouldn't and couldn't compete with white America. This seems to be an overarching compromise of the post-Civil War era and beyond, as Reconstruction proved that white Americans couldn't handle blacks being their political and social equals without losing their loving minds over it. And this is exactly what I meant. Him being the leader of basically white American institutions and doing virtually nothing to help black America, discounts his being "the first black president", on top of, you know, being half white, not being raised by black people, having zero legacy or connection to the typical black american, etc etc. Dexo posted:
If you're only black because society deems you black, you're not black. Society thought Rachael Dolezal looked black, does that make her black? Absolutely not. His blackness is literally defined by whiteness. That's what I mean that he's never been black in and of itself. If you ever travel to anywhere in West Africa or a virtually all black neighborhood, you get to experience blackness on its own that gets to define itself. Obama didn't get that. negromancer fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Dec 14, 2016 |
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Dec 14, 2016 17:43
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Dexo posted:They love race traitors though? Is "race traitor" an idea with wide acceptance amongst poc? I thought that was mostly a white supremacist concept, but I guess there's no reason that any group can't be reactive to people breaking norms. Also Kanye looks unhealthy as hell and I hope they can get him help, but I don't have a lot of confidence given how frickin' bonkers Rob Kardashian is and the family doesn't do much about it. negromancer posted:I am an Afro-Pessimist, so there's that. So basically, the American government is an institution created by white (men) to hold whites in a superior position to all others and beyond abolition the nominal granting of civil rights very little has been done to actually restructure the framework that holds whites superior. Consequently Obama's faith that America's government fundamentally works means he was, from the get-go, unequipped to further the cause of black people because the government in its present form is structurally incapable of furthering black rights. Is that about the argument? I have to say, I'd never thought of it like that but it's pretty convincing now that I've got my mind around it. The problems black Americans face can't be resolved simply by putting more black faces in congress. Passing and changing laws here and there just won't fix things and there needs to be some more fundamental structural reform in the government to make it truly able to serve everybody. I have no idea where to even begin that restructuring, other than maybe constitutionally require direct civilian oversight over policing? There should probably be constitutional amendments to protect voting rights too rather than putting it under the auspices of a law whose effectiveness changes with the whims of the court. I was going to say "proportional representation/some other restructured election system" but maybe that's going to far into the Bernie Sanders "changes white people want will help black people too" territory.
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Dec 14, 2016 20:19
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:Is "race traitor" an idea with wide acceptance amongst poc? I thought that was mostly a white supremacist concept, but I guess there's no reason that any group can't be reactive to people breaking norms. Yes, you have it exactly right. I don't think the system is ever capable of actually changing to protect black people and their lives. The system in its very foundation was built with the idea that black people are and forever will be a black underclass. Civil Rights didn't change that, the VRA didn't change that, it was never changed because it was never addressed, that's why I keep saying we haven't had a black president and probably never will, because no one is going to run an institution to oppress himself and not change that fundamental core. There's no way Obama, an constitutional law professor, did not know the above, and do nothing about it, unless he felt there was nothing to do about it. This country will never elect a black person that is comfortable and loves their blackness the way white America loves and protects whiteness. It would literally destroy the foundation of the country that it was built upon. White people would rather wipe the slate clean than make the slate fair.
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Dec 14, 2016 20:31
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negromancer posted:There's no way Obama, an constitutional law professor, did not know the above, and do nothing about it, unless he felt there was nothing to do about it. What if he thought there was nothing he could do about it? Some of his recent interviews have been downright depressing when he hints around about the things he wanted to accomplish that he wasn't allowed to pursue.
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Dec 14, 2016 20:58
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biracial bear for uncut posted:What if he thought there was nothing he could do about it? I get that impression as well. I think he tried, and I think that the problem is such that doing what he could left a ton of the problem unaddressed. I think he got caught in dealing with the denial white people are in about racism and he never could really get through that and trying to make some changes that would benefit black people. I get what you're talking about negromancer, I'm torn on whether it's a fault with him or whether it's a system where even in the oval office, if a black person wants to achieve goals for black people he's got to pick and choose his battles. I lean towards the latter because there's always enough power in white hands or working towards white goals that progress is only made when white people get shamed enough that supporting some aspect of white supremacy embarrasses them in front of other white people. Then they fix it and go back to their fondly held illusion that they live in a just society and they got their position because of talent, skill, or hard work. I think he did some really good work fighting against that illusion, and a lot of white people I know hate him for it. I'd be interested in whether you think that's a really white perspective on his presidency and there's major issues that I'm blind to.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:28
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xthetenth posted:I get that impression as well. I think he tried, and I think that the problem is such that doing what he could left a ton of the problem unaddressed. I think he got caught in dealing with the denial white people are in about racism and he never could really get through that and trying to make some changes that would benefit black people. This is is the really hard part to help people understand because it can be both true and also not the whole picture. I absolutely would not have my job if I didn't have a lot of talent and skill that I directed into hard work, but also none of that would have mattered if I did not pass white. It's very hard to get someone past the "are you saying I didn't earn what I have?" phase and I've only succeeded getting someone through that twice (both times by pulling up our internal "black at <company>" group and pointing out that every person [all 18 of them out of 10000 people] on it had names like "Amber Adams" and "James Smith" and so on).
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Dec 14, 2016 22:43
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How much power does the president actually have to change things? I mean that seriously, yes they have the power to execute pretty serious things but usually all of those fit into part of the plan for the institution. Here in Australia the Prime Minister only serves at the mercy of their party, the party is able to (and recently has, once for both sides of our political spectrum) switch leaders mid term if they want to. I guess the point is, is the president still just a figurehead, one with a loud voice but still not the power to push congress if congress refuses to be moved. It's unsurprising then that putting A black face in front of a white institution doesn't actually change things, I guess the question is what will. Will the institution ever allow enough black representation in to where it makes a difference, or will it rebound horribly every time the politics shift.
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Dec 14, 2016 22:47
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Maluco Marinero posted:How much power does the president actually have to change things? I mean that seriously, yes they have the power to execute pretty serious things but usually all of those fit into part of the plan for the institution. Here in Australia the Prime Minister only serves at the mercy of their party, the party is able to (and recently has, once for both sides of our political spectrum) switch leaders mid term if they want to. It seems, without too much effort put into checking my statement, that in general, the President has far more leeway in affecting foreign policy than they do domestic. That isn't to say they are unlimited there, or that they have no power domestically, but it will always be easier for them to bomb people in another country than to help people at home. At home they politic, cajole, beg and demand, but abroad they do, at least where violence is concerned. Foreign aid is one of those things that seems to get vetted where the expense of our military budget is generally overlooked in such areas.
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Dec 14, 2016 23:06
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Maluco Marinero posted:How much power does the president actually have to change things? I mean that seriously, yes they have the power to execute pretty serious things but usually all of those fit into part of the plan for the institution. Here in Australia the Prime Minister only serves at the mercy of their party, the party is able to (and recently has, once for both sides of our political spectrum) switch leaders mid term if they want to. I think we're still in for a while at least where progress is won by making it too uncomfortable for white people to present themselves to themselves and other white people as not A Racist. The house is hosed and really it'd take a good hold on all three branches. LeftistMuslimObama posted:This is is the really hard part to help people understand because it can be both true and also not the whole picture. I absolutely would not have my job if I didn't have a lot of talent and skill that I directed into hard work, but also none of that would have mattered if I did not pass white. It's very hard to get someone past the "are you saying I didn't earn what I have?" phase and I've only succeeded getting someone through that twice (both times by pulling up our internal "black at <company>" group and pointing out that every person [all 18 of them out of 10000 people] on it had names like "Amber Adams" and "James Smith" and so on). Yeah, you're right on there that it can be true and not the whole picture, I should have said "they got their position because of talent, skill, or hard work and that's it". What I wrote in that post and this feels like a phoneposting oversimplification of what I'm getting at about how one of the really key things about modern racism is that it's deniable to the very people who practice it. It's a whole lot of small things all pointing in the same direction, and none of them are big enough or blatant enough that the people doing them have to acknowledge them. And to keep that going and keep them from seeing themselves as A Racist, white people will do all sorts of nasty twisting of the truth and even just be really really racist. I think the bullshit around cop shootings is one good example, to avoid acknowledging that policing is racist as gently caress, they'll go out of their way and brainstorm all sorts of justifications and stereotype the hell out of black people so they can decide that there was some reason why that person got shot that wasn't a racist system. I'm hopeful that some of the injustices that have gotten exposed get to the point where white folks can't justify them to themselves so we get some progress out of the bargain, but that's me hoping for the best.
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Dec 14, 2016 23:17
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Maluco Marinero posted:How much power does the president actually have to change things? I mean that seriously, yes they have the power to execute pretty serious things but usually all of those fit into part of the plan for the institution. Here in Australia the Prime Minister only serves at the mercy of their party, the party is able to (and recently has, once for both sides of our political spectrum) switch leaders mid term if they want to. Well, Obama did a lot of compromising as president that he didn't need to. Each time his opponents played brinksman he would "bargain" away things he wanted to get them to do basic stuff like "fund the government". If a president was truly dedicated to some type of reform, he could refuse to sign bills unrelated to that reform until he sees his goals met. He might not be particularly popular as a result and he might even end up being a one-term president, but if he truly and deeply cares about that issue he has that option. So the question is, did Obama value his legacy and the appearance of working within the system more than he cared about the things he advertised as his values? And I think the answer to that question is pretty resoundingly "Yes".
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Dec 14, 2016 23:59
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:Well, Obama did a lot of compromising as president that he didn't need to. Each time his opponents played brinksman he would "bargain" away things he wanted to get them to do basic stuff like "fund the government". If a president was truly dedicated to some type of reform, he could refuse to sign bills unrelated to that reform until he sees his goals met. He might not be particularly popular as a result and he might even end up being a one-term president, but if he truly and deeply cares about that issue he has that option. So the question is, did Obama value his legacy and the appearance of working within the system more than he cared about the things he advertised as his values? And I think the answer to that question is pretty resoundingly "Yes". First-term Obama did for sure. The cost/benefit analysis of a president have got to be more complex than we can really understand, but I think Obama came into office thinking he could afford to back-burner a lot of stuff until he was able to charm the wild Republicans away from being petty shitlords. He underestimated how spiteful they could be, and how many Americans just flatout lie when they say they hate partisanship and want congress to do more than sit on their asses.
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Dec 15, 2016 00:11
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there wolf posted:First-term Obama did for sure. The cost/benefit analysis of a president have got to be more complex than we can really understand, but I think Obama came into office thinking he could afford to back-burner a lot of stuff until he was able to charm the wild Republicans away from being petty shitlords. He underestimated how spiteful they could be, and how many Americans just flatout lie when they say they hate partisanship and want congress to do more than sit on their asses. Underestimating white people is something a guy raised in white privilege as opposed to being raised in white supremacy would do. Living deep in black America and seeing the ugly parts of white America really put on display for you and seeing that history play out and hearing those first hand accounts from black people who saw the worst of white America every day, when it was okay for them to be the worst, that's a mistake black people rarely make. It was like that SNL skit with Dave Chappelle and Chris Rock. Black people very very rarely think to themselves "white people wouldn't be that terrible", when anyone who knows anyone black over 70 will tell you yes, white people are in fact that terrible in America. That's a core formative experience Obama just didn't get, and that's how I knew he really wasn't equipped to be considered the first black president or fight for black people.
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Dec 15, 2016 00:36
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Obama has low key gotten a lot of black folks out of jail in the last couple of years, and I can almost guarantee he is going to ramp up them pardons in the last month. Domestic policy is a nightmare that he was just not able to navigate. It had less to do with his understanding of blackness, which as I have said a thousand times before in this thread is an absurd accusation to make, and more that the system is set up for the President to mostly fail. His agenda never stood a chance.
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Dec 15, 2016 01:43
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So, Lupe Fiasco has had an interesting couple of days.
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Dec 15, 2016 03:45
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Necroskowitz posted:So, Lupe Fiasco has had an interesting couple of days. I mean, he's not wrong. But color me surprised that the same organization that doesn't care about Palestinians has the nerve to call someone anti-Semites. Also, most of the music industry is ran by 4 Jewish dudes, that's facts as gently caress, and you aren't getting a major deal + distribution without one of those 4 signing off on it. Period. Pointing out that mainstream black music culture is in the hands of 4 Jewish dudes that absolutely do not have the interests of black people at heart makes one anti-Semitic in today's world.
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Dec 15, 2016 03:52
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They're calling it anti-semetic because their jewish religion was used in his lyrics aimed at them. Is it hosed up that 4 white dudes control the mainstream music targeted at black people? Certainly, but who they worship makes zero difference.
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Dec 15, 2016 04:36
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I mean sure criticize Lupe and other rappers who say poo poo like that all you want but it's loving bullshit that one throw away line in a rap song got it removed from SoundCloud. To me that's the bullshit part. Like if the whole song was about that poo poo then sure. But he was clearly just talking about the people at Atlantic that hosed him over. But come on removed for hate speech? Worse poo poo has been said about women and LGBTQ in songs on that platform.
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Dec 15, 2016 04:42
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It's still on SoundCloud though
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Dec 15, 2016 04:56
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AggressivelyStupid posted:It's still on SoundCloud though Oh it got put back up? Then there goes a majority of my complaints. I think it's dumb to label him as an anti-Semite. But sure have the conversation about how freely rappers talk about Jew lawyers, and executives
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Dec 15, 2016 05:06
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Cop Porn Popper posted:They're calling it anti-semetic because their jewish religion was used in his lyrics aimed at them. Is it hosed up that 4 white dudes control the mainstream music targeted at black people? Certainly, but who they worship makes zero difference. Eh, the ADL has said and done far more anti-Semitic poo poo in regards to Palestinians on a regular basis, including religion, so they aren't who I'd listen to when regarding anti-semitism.
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Dec 15, 2016 05:14
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negromancer posted:If you're only black because society deems you black, you're not black. Society thought Rachael Dolezal looked black, does that make her black? Absolutely not. His blackness is literally defined by whiteness. That's what I mean that he's never been black in and of itself. If you ever travel to anywhere in West Africa or a virtually all black neighborhood, you get to experience blackness on its own that gets to define itself. Obama didn't get that. Seriously, gently caress this attitude. This is part of white supremacy, and I don't think you get how. Ultimately they've convinced you that you're either real black and they are going to gently caress you over or you're an Uncle Tom mother fucker to never be trusted. So might as well start voting Republican, if you didn't grow up with mostly black people. They have you convinced you can only be a human being among other black people, which is a win for them. It keeps you from even thinking or wanting to pound on their door demanding the poo poo that should be owed to you. Everyone who is labelled black in America has been labelled so by the white man, even if they somehow grew up never seeing a white man. You'd surely not consider some white kid who grew up in black ghetto to be really "black" just so you can show them corny rear end Suburban negros, would you? Think, man, don't do their divide and conquer work for them.
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Dec 15, 2016 05:46
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foobardog posted:Seriously, gently caress this attitude. This is part of white supremacy, and I don't think you get how. Ultimately they've convinced you that you're either real black and they are going to gently caress you over or you're an Uncle Tom mother fucker to never be trusted. So might as well start voting Republican, if you didn't grow up with mostly black people. So it's black peoples fault that they can't be comfortable in their blackness around white people? And you think because white people have had centuries to not be racist fucktards that I'm being decisive by not trusting that they will change? You think I don't demand what I want from white America while also knowing they won't give it up unless forced into doing so, where even destroying their own lives isn't an option anymore? gently caress you. gently caress outta here. You don't understand being black outside of whiteness and until you do, you'll always be a slave to their definition of blackness. And a white person that grows up in a black neighborhood IS STILL WHITE AND BENEFITS FROM WHITE SUPREMACY YOU loving IDIOT.
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Dec 15, 2016 06:03
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negromancer posted:Eh, the ADL has said and done far more anti-Semitic poo poo in regards to Palestinians on a regular basis, including religion, so they aren't who I'd listen to when regarding anti-semitism. I'll be honest, I skimmed the article, only paying attention to his lines from the song and formed an opinion from that. I seriously doubt he's anti-semetic, but those lyrics are. Also, I could give two shits what the ADL as an entity says, and I have plenty of disagreements with Israel's treatment of palestinians, but thats a discussion for another thread me thinks.  Dexo posted:Oh it got put back up? Then there goes a majority of my complaints. I can't quite think how I want to word what I want to say eloquently so here goes nothing. Talk like that probably comes up because theres 800+ years of propaganda against anyone jewish that has ingrained that poo poo deep in white culture and its probably rubbed off on black culture along the way. So uhhh... sorry for that one I guess? I dunno, I've got a branch of my family tree that stops existing in europe in the very late 30's while mine fled to the US, so I might be biased in this case. 
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Dec 15, 2016 06:17
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poo poo, let me add on to it. All the motherfucking whiteness in my childhood didn't help me break the glass ceiling that affects black people just as much as women. The number of times I've been talked down to. The little box of performed whiteness I've trapped myself in because that was the only way I thought I'd get ahead. The loving fear of even asking simple questions of coworkers because part of me is still afraid they'll see that as part of my inferior brain power or some poo poo. The loving inability to even enjoy the nerdy rear end poo poo I like because I know plenty of black people don't even get the chance to waste money like that. That poo poo is not just taught to you in majority black neighborhoods, it's in the very fabric of American culture and society. There is no running away from it. If you want to understand Obama, yeah, his white upbringing did affect how he saw race, no doubt. It probably led to ineffective actions on his part because hey, not every white person he knew was loving him over. But ultimately he understood that he wasn't allowed to go up there and BE a black president. poo poo, the stuff he got called out on by upset white people was treated as if he was preaching about Yakub inventing the White Devil, anyway. So he did what many black people do and have to do, loving play the long, slow game, and let the white people look crazy. Listen, I don't mean to tear into you personally. I get it, other black people have dealt with poo poo I've never had to. It's just I'm really sick of that attitude. Not because I need to be kowtowed to as the talented tenth, but because it helps no one. It's not loving blackness, it's fetishisizing it.
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Dec 15, 2016 06:17
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negromancer posted:So it's black peoples fault that they can't be comfortable in their blackness around white people? That's my loving point, and you know it. A black person who grows up in a white neighborhood still suffers from white supremacy. Of course it's mother loving white people's fault they got you loving terrified of them. But, you just have turned around and bought into it, just much as I bought into "one of the good ones" horseshit. It's like learned helplessness. E: There's no drat get out of blackness free card for anyone considered black. Any that you think people may have are just poison pills just like the "race card". foobardog fucked around with this message at 06:26 on Dec 15, 2016 |
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Dec 15, 2016 06:21
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Calling Obama's blackness into question in regards to not being black enough feels like a No True Scotsman.
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Dec 15, 2016 06:36
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Questioning someone's blackness, black credibility or anything of the source is poo poo white people do.
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Dec 15, 2016 06:43
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n/m, i need to be quiet
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Dec 15, 2016 06:49
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My white family didn't define my blackness, they denied it to me. They wanted me to stay arms length from it. gently caress, my black father often did the same. I realize almost every lesson my father taught me was about how to avoid the wrath of the craziest and worst rear end white people he had to deal with. From making sure to say "yes" and not "yeah", to not shaking my leg when I'm nervous, to not sucking my teeth when I was upset. He never said that was the reason for the lessons, but it was. I had plenty of black bullies growing up who did the same. That poo poo didn't help none. Just made me a smug rear end in a top hat. But I get why, I'm pretty loving ridiculous. I ain't never wanted to be white per se. A white version of me wouldn't be me. I just wanted to be me.
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Dec 15, 2016 07:00
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negromancer posted:Underestimating white people is something a guy raised in white privilege as opposed to being raised in white supremacy would do. Living deep in black America and seeing the ugly parts of white America really put on display for you and seeing that history play out and hearing those first hand accounts from black people who saw the worst of white America every day, when it was okay for them to be the worst, that's a mistake black people rarely make. Hello, white people aren't really that terrible. Edit: Let me add something. I think you've been given a tin-pot dictatorship here, despite the fact that you are at best a crazy man who has been legitimized by people who don't want to anger you despite your disgusting views toward the mentally ill and others. You've questioned people's "blackness" because you think you're the only person who gets to determine what being "black" really means. Apparently, "blackness" is purely something you can use as a weapon against others that don't agree with you in even the most minor of ways. You're a bully, and you're alone. Squashing Machine fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Dec 15, 2016 |
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Dec 15, 2016 08:11
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Squashing Machine posted:Hello, white people aren't really that terrible. Can I live in your reality? The one the rest of us is in isn't quite so good.
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Dec 15, 2016 08:22
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Rush Limbo posted:Can I live in your reality? The one the rest of us is in isn't quite so good. I can't believe I'm in a reality where I have to actually argue "the color of someone's skin doesn't make them a bad person."
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Dec 15, 2016 08:27
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You're making the "not all whites" argument like this is about every last individual but it's about the population. You can't argue that white people in America don't have a problem when we have President-Elect Trump because of them, and he's just the most prominent new cherry on a poo poo sundae going back a long time.
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Dec 15, 2016 08:37
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Eletriarnation posted:You're making the "not all whites" argument like this is about every last individual but it's about the population. You can't argue that white people in America don't have a problem when we have President-Elect Trump because of them. Let's talk about the phrase, as gfsincere puts it, "white people are in fact that terrible." If that is a seriously acceptable way of talking about people, then we're really hosed.
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Dec 15, 2016 08:43
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Squashing Machine posted:Hello, white people aren't really that terrible. Yeah, but they can be though.
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Dec 15, 2016 09:11
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To me personally, and the hardest thing to talk to most white people about is that yes, whiteness as a perhaps a concept is exactly terrible as gfsincere says. There are obviously people with "white" skin who are not assholes or terrible people. But the basic idea of whiteness as normality or superiority is. It's strongly based in ideas that you can really trace back to the colonial nature of our country. Whiteness is an expectation of deference towards white people. It's tied in the idea it's more important to make white people feel safe than actually integrate and treat non-whites as humans in their own right. And it is very much like the Not All Men thing. Obviously not all, but far too many, and far too many who are excused for their behavior. This understanding of whiteness means very well there can be black people carrying water for it. He's right about that too, pick pretty much any black Republican. But my complaint is more that he seems to think that there exist these black people in white neighborhoods who some how managed to escape it. Maybe for a little bit, maybe as a child, but never always. The fact it is so hard to talk about it is part of the sick abuse being perpetrated on black minds and bodies. E: It's in the gaslighting telling you it's all in the distant past, when it happened to your father directly. It's in the thinly veiled ways it tries to hide as not being about race, but class or crimes committed. It's in the colorblind argument equivocating black people pointing out the bullshit with white supremacy. It's in the way the fear of cops is more important than the anger of black families losing their children. foobardog fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Dec 15, 2016 |
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Dec 15, 2016 09:11
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Forceholy posted:Yeah, but they can be though. Don't make blanket statements about people based on their race. This seems to be something we can all agree with, correct?
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Dec 15, 2016 09:18
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