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John Boswell talked about that event and others. His work is interesting but super controversial.
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Dec 15, 2016 18:16
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Shbobdb posted:John Boswell talked about that event and others. His work is interesting but super controversial. Thanks, that was it!
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Dec 15, 2016 18:37
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Wheat Loaf posted:I don't know; I wouldn't imagine so, no. Homosexuality was illegal for a very long time and you'd be prosecuted and either fined or jailed if you were discovered, but at least in Britain, by the time you got to the late Victorian era, a lot of the time (at least in high society) it was something people knew about and didn't discuss because it wasn't fit for polite conversation. Unless you're Alan Turing, in which case you commit suicide because the punishment for homosexuality in the 1950s was chemical castration. Didn't matter if you were a genius or a war hero, you'd get hosed up if you got caught doing anything gay.
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Dec 15, 2016 19:40
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I don't actually know what thread this should go in, but I just saw it on Twitter and was kind of amazed: It is a 16th century bound volume that can contains 6 books read in different ways. It is a pretty amazing design. So I guess the fact is that book binding is cooler than I thought.
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Dec 15, 2016 19:41
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chitoryu12 posted:Unless you're Alan Turing, in which case you commit suicide because the punishment for homosexuality in the 1950s was chemical castration. Didn't matter if you were a genius or a war hero, you'd get hosed up if you got caught doing anything gay. The actual case of Alan Turing is more interesting than the Hollywood one. He went to the police and told them his new 19-year-old lover stole stuff, he wasn't rooted out. Furthermore, he selected chemical castration as opposed to imprisonment. Neither is fair but the hormone treatment was not required for those found guilty of "indecency".
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Dec 15, 2016 19:56
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alpha_destroy posted:
And also more horrifying than you thought: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropodermic_bibliopegy
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Dec 15, 2016 20:02
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Alhazred posted:And also more horrifying than you thought: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropodermic_bibliopegy Are you saying you don't have a skin bound facsimile of the Tome of Eternal Darkness in your secret study?
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Dec 15, 2016 20:16
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Powaqoatse posted:I seem to remember that a male couple were prosecuted in I think Renaissance Venice for having entered a kind of "same-sex union". They'd sworn each other love and fidelity, and I think the main problem was supposed to have been the swearing, not the homosexuality. But of course I can't find a citation now, so add huge grains of salt to taste. I think you're thinking of this. 
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Dec 15, 2016 20:20
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Pick posted:We'll never know for a lot of people because they didn't talk about it, and even if it was referenced it would often be referenced obliquely enough that it's not clear. Since it's also often been an insult, the people who might bring it up are also the people most likely to be lying about it. So it's a big ol' "who knows" for a lot of them. Hell, historians still waffle about Buchanan and they're right, it comes right up to the line of "I love cock!!!!" being part of the State of the Union, but as it happens there isn't proof-proof. he was super gay though I'm ghay "We need to examine the mores of the times he lived in" I love cum "In context, this is a pretty normal things to say"
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Dec 15, 2016 20:21
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Pick posted:The actual case of Alan Turing is more interesting than the Hollywood one. He went to the police and told them his new 19-year-old lover stole stuff, he wasn't rooted out. It wasn't required, but it still emphasizes how hosed up it was that as recently as the 1950s you could be forcibly drugged by the state into impotency as an alternative to being thrown in prison for the heinous crime of being in love with another man. It's a bit far from "People acknowledged it and just didn't talk about it" when you could get your life completely ruined if anyone found out that you took action on your "urges". All in a first-world nation that prided itself on how advanced it was, no less!
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Dec 15, 2016 20:22
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Agean90 posted:I'm ghay Even in the book I scanned the passage from above, the author was very "of course this isn't 'gay' as we understand it today" and I was like, 
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Dec 15, 2016 20:24
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Pick posted:I think you're thinking of this. Oh yeah, that's the exact one. I guess it's a different book (this seems to be from Faramerz Dabhoiwala’s The Origins of Sex: A History of the First Sexual Revolution) e: vvv ah, thanks!  vvv
Carthag Tuek has a new favorite as of 20:30 on Dec 15, 2016 |
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Dec 15, 2016 20:25
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No, it's from Forbidden Friendships: Homosexuality and Male Culture in Renaissance Florence.
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Dec 15, 2016 20:28
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BravestOfTheLamps has a new favorite as of 19:01 on Aug 25, 2018 |
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Dec 15, 2016 20:36
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re interesting book bindings: My dad's great-grandfather is right out of David Copperfield. Born in the slums of the east end, apprenticed out to an old man illegally printing and binding naughty books. Ended up being left the small business, turned it into thriving business by switching to legitimate quality leather bound books, and hiding very dirty pictures in the for-edges or in random parts of the book. Usually something that looked very dull that the ladies wouldn't pick up by mistake. His son ended up selling the whole thing and used the money to go into the champagne trade and became utterly stinking rich. My dad is from the second son line so alas, no Victorian porn money for us* *Although we did get to go to my dad's cousin's enormous mansion once, we never went back, I think my mother may be a tad bitter.
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Dec 15, 2016 20:51
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gleebster posted:Aw, heck, that just exemplifies the lack of chairs in the 19th century. You joke, but beds too! I read a Lincoln book that addressed the "Lincoln was totally gay because he shared a bed with his friend" myth. The author said that in the 19th century on the frontier, there weren't enough beds for everyone and it was a very normal thing for the average heterosexual working class person to share beds with their friends or coworkers or whatever. When Lincoln traveled around with the circuit judges, all 5 or 6 of them would squeeze into however many beds the place they were staying had available (usually one or two)
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Dec 15, 2016 21:37
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What's funnier is that Lincoln was scared of girls and acted like a big dweeb around them.
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Dec 15, 2016 21:50
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Tasteful Dickpic posted:But Oscar Wilde was surely straight, right? Old "butch" Oscar? The Writer of the best-selling pamphlet "Why I like to do it with girls"? Course he was!
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Dec 15, 2016 21:50
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Pick posted:Even in the book I scanned the passage from above, the author was very "of course this isn't 'gay' as we understand it today" and I was like, I think sometimes when authors say "it's not 'gay' in the modern sense" even when it's like, a dude in love with a dude and they are both totally boning, they mean that we should take care not to map our modern conceptions of social mores concerning homosexual relationships 1/1 onto the past because sometimes it'd be the case that dudes being in love with each other was pretty accepted but them boning was taboo, or that dudes boning was fine and being in love was seen as "weird" but not necessarily an absolute sin, etc etc. Sometimes they are just being weird and homophobic though.
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Dec 15, 2016 22:14
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Pick posted:What's funnier is that Lincoln was scared of girls and acted like a big dweeb around them. That's no worse than Richard Nixon: quote:On weekends, in order to spend time with her, he drove her to Los Angeles, where she stayed with her half-sister and went on dates with other men. He would return on Sunday afternoons and wait until she was ready for him to drive her home. Six months after they met, Pat went to Michigan to buy a car and did not contact Dick for three months. He eventually tracked her down and persuaded her to give him another chance.
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Dec 15, 2016 22:17
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AFewBricksShy posted:That's no worse than Richard Nixon: Well, yeah, that was the easier. Do you know how big printers were back then?
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Dec 15, 2016 22:20
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AFewBricksShy posted:That's no worse than Richard Nixon: The best worst presidential love affair was not Bill and Monica, but Reagan and Mrs. Reagan. Backlot blowjob queen makes good. http://wonkette.com/599350/a-firm-yet-tender-sex-positive-tribute-to-nancy-reagan-hollywood-bj-queen
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Dec 15, 2016 22:29
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AFewBricksShy posted:That's no worse than Richard Nixon: Haha wooph, jeez!
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Dec 15, 2016 22:31
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chitoryu12 posted:Unless you're Alan Turing, in which case you commit suicide because the punishment for homosexuality in the 1950s was chemical castration. Didn't matter if you were a genius or a war hero, you'd get hosed up if you got caught doing anything gay. Well, yes, that's true, but Turing wasn't alive in the Victorian period.
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Dec 15, 2016 22:36
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Dr. Angela Ziegler posted:You may have heard of "Handkercheif Code," the largely- apocryphal system by which gay men use a colored kercheif in their back pocket to indicate they are a top, bottom, whatever. This actually has a real event behind it. It also makes this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkqfXbCSUKw Really really funny. I keep a blue flag hanging out my backside But only on the left side, yeah that's the Crip side Lot of funny options here, ikd what shade they really use: 
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Dec 15, 2016 22:40
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Pick posted:Even in the book I scanned the passage from above, the author was very "of course this isn't 'gay' as we understand it today" and I was like, I get why they do it, since there are plenty of things that suggest homosexuality in modern times that don't apply to different cultures, but then you have cases like Frederick the great literally saying that he is physically repulsed by women and greatly prefers the company of men and dudes going "well actually"
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Dec 15, 2016 23:57
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Agean90 posted:I get why they do it, since there are plenty of things that suggest homosexuality in modern times that don't apply to different cultures, but then you have cases like Frederick the great literally saying that he is physically repulsed by women and greatly prefers the company of men and dudes going "well actually" Yeah, this. Like, it's definitely an indisputable fact -- just for one solid example of the changing culture around sexuality -- that acceptable levels of physical contact between same-gender friends is highly cultural, and the current American model of "if two dudes touch, ever, under any circumstances other than sports or a fight, they're gay" is really an outlier, therefore a picture of two men holding hands in the 1880s doesn't mean "lol they were gay" and anyone insisting it's inherently evidence of the subjects' homosexuality would be underinformed at best. At the same time, not every claim that a historical figure might have been anything other than straight is actually on that level, but people sure act as though it is and you're a revisionist moron with a skeleton agenda if you say literally anything implying an interpretation that isn't cishet. I've seen people argue that the Chevalier d'Eon can't count as LGBT in any way because History Isn't Queer, You SJW
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Dec 16, 2016 08:20
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InediblePenguin posted:if two dudes touch, ever, under any circumstances other than sports or a fight, they're gay" this is why we went and invaded afghanistan
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Dec 16, 2016 08:29
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Concerning Frederick: there are a couple of reasons why some historians are somewhat hesitant to call him “definitely gay“ or whatever. 1. as has already been stated, many people don't realise how strongly informed by cultural mores even something like sexuality is. The clear-cut distinction between heterosexual (=only being attracted to people of the opposite sex, ever), homosexual (=only being attracted to people of the same sex, ever) and even bisexual (=being attracted to both sexes to the same degree) is mostly a product of the 19th and 20th centuries. Paradoxically it was the Enlightenment that did a lot to vilify homosexuality (masturbation too; hell, all sexual activity suddenly became suspect) and put those sexual “standards“ in place. Frederick would have grown up instead in a noble society that strictly separated men from women, which led to the funny result that a lot of nobles of that time (at least in Protestant Europe, whereas I think that the laxer attitude of Catholics towards sexuality and the mingling of the sexes might have diminished that effect somewhat, though I could be mistaken) would have had their first sexual experiences with people of the same sex. This wasn't seen as being too bad; the prince-elector of Saxony encouraged Frederick to “fulfill your desires“ at a time where it already was common knowledge that he preferred men in that regard, for example. Essentially he was saying “keep on boning dudes, I don't care man“ with that. Add to that an omnipresent mortal fear of catching syphilis and (in Frederick's case) a super hosed-up childhood and you might understand why Agean90 posted:Frederick the great literally saying that he is physically repulsed by women and greatly prefers the company of men  ). The 2. reason would be that the romantic nationalism of the 19th century elevated Frederick to a national hero, and national heroes can't be gay. This moronic attitude is vanishing, thank God, but it's still (subconsciously) alive amongst especially older and northern German/Protestant historians of today, I think.
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Dec 16, 2016 08:49
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syscall girl posted:this is why we went and invaded afghanistan this is why a lot of lovely things happen in our society tbh
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Dec 16, 2016 09:13
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System Metternich posted:This wasn't seen as being too bad; the prince-elector of Saxony encouraged Frederick to “fulfill your desires“ at a time where it already was common knowledge that he preferred men in that regard, for example.  at Augustus the Strong tho
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Dec 16, 2016 14:28
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Josef bugman posted:Old "butch" Oscar? The Writer of the best-selling pamphlet "Why I like to do it with girls"? When Stephen Fry married his husband, Elliot Spencer, they wore green carnations and brought with them a little Oscar Wilde doll. I know, I know, the Daily Mail but here are photos. quote:In reference to the flowers pinned through their button holes, the actor accompanied his tweet with the message: #greencarnations.
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Dec 16, 2016 14:32
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCXwtETzQ9s Noel Coward wrote a song about it in 1928 quote:And as we are the reason for the Nineties being Gay
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Dec 16, 2016 14:49
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System Metternich posted:We can be sure about his brother Heinrich, though; Heinrich was 100% bonafide gay. He also was the better military commander and just a better person overall, it's a shame that he tends to get overlooked in favour of his warmongering rear end in a top hat brother (I don't really like Frederick, in case you couldn't tell Why can we be sure about Heinrich and not Frederick?
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Dec 16, 2016 15:49
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Mostly because as the younger son Heinrich was untouched by the educational measures of their weirdo father and never developed the misanthropy and emotional difficulties showcased by Frederick as a result. He also wasn't as weird with women as his brother and developed a close friendship with Czar Catherine, with whom he could endlessly shoot the poo poo about art, philosophy, science, politics and men. It's not that Frederick was not gay (as I said, he very likely was), but that he was so stuck up about emotions, and sexuality, and getting along with other people that historians are imo rightfully hesitant to fully put him into a modern category of homosexuality Fun facts about Heinrich: - in the 1740s both brothers were lusting after the same noble servant. Frederick had no chance with him and in his jealousy tried to dissuade Heinrich from him, alleging that he had “gonorrhea and meaty shoulders“ - during the Seven Years War, Frederick made Heinrich commander of occupied Saxony, but fired him after Heinrich refused to sack and loot the country to ruin, citing his “misguided clemency towards the Saxons“ - Frederik stopped a Polish delegation from reaching his brother after he had learned that they wanted to offer him the Polish crown - in 1787, General von Steuben asked him if he could imagine becoming King of the United States. Obviously, nothing ever came of it - at least from the Seven Years War on Heinrich started to genuinely hate his brother. It probably was reciprocal
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Dec 16, 2016 16:22
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System Metternich posted:Concerning Frederick: there are a couple of reasons why some historians are somewhat hesitant to call him “definitely gay“ or whatever. 1. as has already been stated, many people don't realise how strongly informed by cultural mores even something like sexuality is. The clear-cut distinction between heterosexual (=only being attracted to people of the opposite sex, ever), homosexual (=only being attracted to people of the same sex, ever) and even bisexual (=being attracted to both sexes to the same degree) is mostly a product of the 19th and 20th centuries. Paradoxically it was the Enlightenment that did a lot to vilify homosexuality (masturbation too; hell, all sexual activity suddenly became suspect) and put those sexual “standards“ in place. Frederick would have grown up instead in a noble society that strictly separated men from women, which led to the funny result that a lot of nobles of that time (at least in Protestant Europe, whereas I think that the laxer attitude of Catholics towards sexuality and the mingling of the sexes might have diminished that effect somewhat, though I could be mistaken) would have had their first sexual experiences with people of the same sex. This wasn't seen as being too bad; the prince-elector of Saxony encouraged Frederick to “fulfill your desires“ at a time where it already was common knowledge that he preferred men in that regard, for example. Essentially he was saying “keep on boning dudes, I don't care man“ with that. Add to that an omnipresent mortal fear of catching syphilis and (in Frederick's case) a super hosed-up childhood and you might understand why Excellent points. I'm still saying Freddy the G is gay though, him and on again off again "close friend" voltaire
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Dec 16, 2016 18:18
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Agean90 posted:Excellent points.
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Dec 16, 2016 20:03
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chitoryu12 posted:Unless you're Alan Turing, in which case you commit suicide because the punishment for homosexuality in the 1950s was chemical castration. Didn't matter if you were a genius or a war hero, you'd get hosed up if you got caught doing anything gay. But the British government was _really sorry_ about that one  and issued an apology fifty years later.
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Dec 16, 2016 20:11
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Agean90 posted:Excellent points. Oh, I absolutely wouldn't be surprised if there was something going on between the two, even though to my knowledge there's no direct evidence for it besides Frederick being a shameless flirt. In any case Voltaire was married before going to Berlin, and it wasn't a sham marriage as Frederick's either. When his wife died, he was genuinely devastated. Some more Frederick Fun Facts™: - Frederick allegedly spoke better French than German. Still it was not perfect; Voltaire makes fun of him one time for getting the French word for "wheat" wrong - Voltaire's nick name for him was "Luc", which doesn't make much sense until you realise that it's "cul" (French for "arse") backwards - shortly after his accession to the throne, Frederick wrote a poem called "La Jouissance" ("The Pleasure", but also "The Orgasm") which he dedicated to a court favourite of his, the Italian author Franceso Algarotti who accompanied and maybe also "accompanied" him on a travel to Königsberg in 1740. It goes like this: quote:From Königsberg to Monsieur Algarotti, Swan of Padua - Frederick's nephew and heir Frederick William II fondly wrote of him: ‘That animal is a right scourge of God, spat out of Hell on to earth by God’s wrath.’ - One of Frederick's permament favourites and one of his very few real friends was one of his servants, Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf, who was de facto sort of a Prussian prime minister, "power behind the throne" and lover to the king (a later historian simply called Fredersdorf "the Prussian version of Madame Pompadour". Frederick wrote him a ton of love letters (in badly broken German, btw) - Frederick pretty much hated women. He threw his wife out of Berlin pretty much the day his father died and the charade could finally be ended (after not having seen her for six years, his first words to his wife were "Madame has grown fatter", lmao), managed to shock the company of his legendary "round table" (which was raunchy enough for Voltaire, who was a member himself, to call it a "brothel") by ranting about "those evil women which you can smell even from ten miles away". In his letters to Fredersdorf, he simply referred to all women as "whores". If he was alive, he would probably post in r/redpill - the gay archeologist Johann Winckelmann visited Frederick at his castle Sanssouci in 1752 and was blown away: "I got to enjoy pleasures that I won't be able to enjoy ever again" and "In Potsdam, I saw Athens and Sparta and I am full of worshipful awe for this divine monarch". Remember that the ancient Greeks liked to entertain themselves with boy toys and Winckelmann's comment makes more sense. - Frederick wrote in his testament that he wanted to be buried at Sanssouci together with his beloved pet dogs. His wish was ignored, and he was entombed in a church in Berlin instead (which could also be seen as a last "gently caress you" by his successor). His last wish only came true after the fall of the wall, when in 1991 he was buried at Sanssouci in what was sort of an inofficial state funeral, 205 years after his death - When you look closely at Frederick's palace, it's actually not "Sanssouci" (which would be French for "without worries"), but instead "Sans, Souci." complete with full stop and comma:  Heinz Kittsteiner postulated that this might be hidden code: in the "secret police code" devised by the French nobleman Charles Gravier for classified correspondence, a comma meant "Calvinist" and a full stop "Naturalist". This can be read as a dig against Frederick's hated father, the staunchly Calvinist Frederick William I: "No Calvinist, no worries for the Naturalist [i.e. me]". This only works when you insert a second "sans", though. Also there's the additional problem of the palace being built in the 1740s and Gravier's code *probably* only being developed in the 1770s. Maybe the full stop also had a second meaning: in French it is called "point", which can also mean "not". And maybe even the comma had an additional French-derived meaning: "comma" is virgule in French, which derives from the Latin virga, "rod", i.e. "penis". "No dick, no worries?" Or maybe the full stop is to be ignored, which would render it as "No Penis Worries". Anyway, nobody really knows for sure Also I have to correct myself. the guy encouraging Frederick to get it on with men wasn't August the Strong, but Frederick's brother August William instead. Frederick was actually part of August the Strong's court for some time before his accession to the throne in 1740, and at this (Catholic-ruled) court it was almost expected that both men and women would have plenty of sex with each other. Maybe Frederick joined/was peer pressured into joining the fun, who knows. System Metternich has a new favorite as of 20:27 on Dec 16, 2016 |
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Dec 16, 2016 20:21
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PYF Historical Fun Fact: Gonorrhea and Meaty Shoulders
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Dec 16, 2016 23:42
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