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Raenir Salazar posted:I feel like ostensibly the point of having Milsurp is that it's generally more durable and has more utility for its price than regular "planned obsolescence" civilian stuff. People walk around with Soviet gear because it's comfy why not Serbian? Hah, I'm much more worried about the vague murky culpability of like, my bag being from a production run that otherwise went entirely to murderous ethnic militias than having it called out on the street per se (though I guess the mere fact of it having an export stamp identifying country of manufacture might be sufficient for ruling out militia supply?). Or the use of coerced labor, too--I know next to nothing about early Serbia other than it being very economically apocalyptic and sponsoring Bad poo poo in the rest of the neighborhood. It was made by Galantex, which seems to be Euro-Aramark? Like i said, pretty minor ethical concern but if there's a place on these forums that appreciates being conscious and conscientious about history I think it's this one HookedOnChthonics fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Dec 18, 2016 |
# ? Dec 18, 2016 05:05 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 15:26 |
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Right I got the gist of that, I'm very utilitarian in general and I just feel like the everyday use of it and its properties should generally outweigh it; like I could see the problem if it was like "This is the truck that transported some Albanians to their mass graves" versus an army bag that was probably mass produced and was probably also used by the other militia's for the other break away republics. I'm not saying there isn't room for moral concerns about culpability because I think it is worthwhile to put in effort to avoid even the possibility of remotely giving material support to the Idea it represents but there's an order to this. Like that army bag is probably used by plenty of people as everyday casual utility wear by plenty of people in the former Yugoslavia. Again insofar as everything can be political or a political statement wearing the bag is likely not likely to be a particularly egregious offender in that regard. Now then, wearing Serbian army pants, the bag, AND the boots? Then I think we can start asking questions. :p
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 05:21 |
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I think you're good, especially since it's just a bag. If you were wearing SS camo to go deer hunting while pretending you're rooting out "partisans" on the Eastern Front I'd be worried, but overall I think it's fine to use milsurp stuff - it's durable and functional, and that's all I really care about. I think the intention matters, too. If you're just being pragmatic about it then no big deal (hell, I've got a WWII/Korea vintage US tanker jacket that I wear during the colder months because it's warm, tough, and fits me well, not to make some political statement).
Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Dec 18, 2016 |
# ? Dec 18, 2016 05:57 |
I don't see any ethical problems. You wanted a bag, so you bought a used bag. It's from a murkier source than you'd like, but your purchase is neither funding that conflict or condoning it. If you want to be unambiguous about it, you can always cover up the maker's mark with tape or something.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 06:49 |
I think I have the same bag, based on your description. It's totally nondescript and nobody would ever pin it as a war relic unless you told them so.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 06:51 |
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Good perspectives, thanks. It probably shouldn't bother me at all given how much untold contemporary human suffering goes towards maintaining my comfy urban bubble, relics of 90s conflicts or no, but there's something about the specificity of a single tangible object as a conduit between me sitting here yawping on the computovision about ethics and some poor fucker who had to live the poo poo, yanno? And in thinking that I'm now looking around at all my material possessions and wondering about how I'd fare in the shoes of their original producer.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 06:53 |
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Now, if you had a shopworn milsurp SKS from that region of the world you might have something to worry about... Can you tell if the bag has even been used?
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 07:06 |
david_a posted:Now, if you had a shopworn milsurp SKS from that region of the world you might have something to worry about... I have a Mosin-Nagant that was arsenal refinished and built in 1938. There's a pretty high chance that it saw front line service.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 07:08 |
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chitoryu12 posted:I have a Mosin-Nagant that was arsenal refinished and built in 1938. There's a pretty high chance that it saw front line service. I somehow feel like there's a kind of statue of limitations on that, though. I don't think having a Roman sword or whatever lying around would bother me at all.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 07:53 |
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david_a posted:That's actually one of the (many) reasons I don't own a Mosin. I would be creeped out having one in the house if (based on the dates and wear) there was a fair chance it was used to kill someone, so I completely empathize about the Serbian bag even if that's a much milder case. Didn't the Soviets shoot a lot of deserters? Why would a gun with an unknown past creep you out? My MG-34 has more than likely been used in anger during WW2 against someone, but its not something you dwell on. It could just as likely be a firearm used for training purposes. Theoretically, would a Remington 700, used to kill a deer/wild game, creep you out the same as the Mosin? I don't mean to be so inquisitive, I just find it odd to have something against a specific firearm because of something it may or may not have ever done.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 09:05 |
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As far as I know milsurp stuff isn't haunted so using it doesn't really matter unless you're worried about getting questions as to why you're wearing your SS officer cap to the beach instead of a baseball cap.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 11:03 |
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OwlFancier posted:As far as I know milsurp stuff isn't haunted so using it doesn't really matter unless you're worried about getting questions as to why you're wearing your SS officer cap to the beach instead of a baseball cap. "Practicing for Sealion, Herr Oberst!" O7
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 11:07 |
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My dad (here's your opportunity my dad) was in the USN for nearly 25 years and he got flags from both the Saudi navy and the Soviet navy; I have both hung up even if they're pretty questionable. So long as it isn't nazi stuff you're probably okay. So I say to myself.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 11:21 |
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So it's been ten years to the day since the worst day of the Youth House riots of 2006. Ostensibly the largest riot in Denmark in 13 years at the time, it was pretty gnarly. While not nearly as large as the 2007 March riots following the eviction of the Youth House proper, it drove home the fact that Copenhagen was on the verge of social rebellion, and that societal tensions in Danish society were high following many years of slash-and-burn neoliberal government. The Youth House was a place where I spent most of my formative years, and like most of its users and supporters I had spent 6 years of negotiations at that point, showing receipts, proving we turned millions of crowns in cultural capital on a yearly basis, making fun, inoffensive happenings and peaceful protests - before getting shown the door, as a charismatic right-wing christian sect was allowed to buy the building, and openly gloated in the media that they were leading a crusade against the satanic users. We were all extremely angry, and had little to lose, save the house itself, which we knew was going to be lost, even as some activists barricaded it and prepared for a siege. I'm not going to argue the politics of the thing, so don't ask - we were just kids who had seen heartless neo-conservatism destroy everything we loved for over 8 years, and we were out for blood. I maintain we did the right thing, but this is more a historic overview for people interested in modern tactics of protest. Supporters from all over the world converged on Copenhagen, even as the police called in members from the entire country to face us down. The result was a pitched battle that lasted for three days, and covered all of the greater Nørrebro area, even spilling into other regions of the city. It was pretty ingenious for a disorganized mob - though of course we weren't. Having a large number of experienced participants in various anticapitalist and anarchist movements in the pool, we set up leaderless commitees that discussed tactics and strategy, press groups that kept up documentation of police brutality( and there was plenty to go around) and disseminated our messages to media and negotiated settlements with the politicians. Large rehearsels taught activists to escape from handcuff sitdown lines, fight tear gas and supply triage and medical care. A lot of new tactics were floated, an effective one being chucking bicycle chains into lighting wires, blacking out the major streets and rendering police helicopters blind - but in the end experience and pure zeal carried the day, people jumped onto police APCs to break off their slat armour, and once people are willing to get run down, there's pretty little they won't do. As people familiar to the case will know, the massive riots of 2007 succeeding this riot, but also the many wider peaceful actions( a non-violent 'riot' happened in 2005 where 10,000 protestors tried to squat a house, using shields and never taking offensive action against police using truncheons and firing grenades directly into the crowd), led to the negotiation of a new youth house, completely controlled by its users, in 2008. I will be happy to answer any question about a particular aspect of the riot, or the other protests( for instance, Aktion G13 deserves it's own post if there's interest, nothing quite like it has ever happened in Northern Europe), as long as it's not about the morality of our actions. We had no mouth, and we had to scream - if people weren't there, it's really hard to understand why the compulsion to fight was so strong, I guess. Pontius Pilate posted:Not part of a weapon but the ticking clock broadcast during Stalingrad had to be eerie. The metronome was during the siege of Leningrad. Koramei posted:Well yeah protests there still get intense (for the protests against the president a few weeks ago, figures were ranging up to like 2 million on the streets) but they're generally non-violent these days, whereas a couple of decades ago that really wasn't the case. I guess most people who aren't aware of southeast Asias recent authoritarian history would have a hard time grasping why their protests are insane, but this makes a lot of sense, thank you! Tias fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Dec 18, 2016 |
# ? Dec 18, 2016 11:44 |
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Tias posted:press groups that kept up documentation of police brutality( and there was plenty to go around) Tias posted:if people weren't there, it's really hard to understand why the compulsion to fight was so strong, I guess.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 12:22 |
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tell me more about anti police pikes anyway i slept on a milsurp folding cot all through high school
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 12:45 |
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I'd make a joke about wanting to travel the world just to see people having seizures at the concept of me existing, but that niche is already occupied by Arabs to great effect.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 12:50 |
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Koramei posted:OTOH I've had a right wing Korean act totally dismayed when I asked her about the textbook protests a year back, thinking it's a national humiliation that foreigners knew about it. I had the opposite opinion but hey. Yeah, Korea's willingness to show up and be heard when they don't like stuff generally makes me . It's nice to see some countries still care enough to do something when they don't like how politics is going.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 12:59 |
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Why would a gun with an unknown past creep you out? My MG-34 has more than likely been used in anger during WW2 against someone, but its not something you dwell on. It could just as likely be a firearm used for training purposes. Would something used to kill animals bother you as much as a literal murder weapon??
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 13:04 |
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OfficialGBSCaliph posted:Would something used to kill animals bother you as much as a literal murder weapon?? Do I know that the weapon used to hunt animals has killed anything? Do I know the literal murder weapon has killed anything? For me, no. My Kar 98k may have killed Russians, my SVT-40 may have killed Germans. These days they mutilate paper and clay pigeons. Any value or opinion attributed to them is purely personal, and for me its never been about "How many X this item has destroyed."
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 13:31 |
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Your phones, computers and clothes are all a product of human suffering and you argue about ghosts in guns.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 13:34 |
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I don't believe that tools acquire mystical properties based on their past use so your choice now is between using it or letting it rust. If you feel more comfortable doing one or the other that's up to you but I don't think there's a moral component.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 13:36 |
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Boiled Water posted:Your phones, computers and clothes are all a product of human suffering and you argue about ghosts in guns. My phone and computer were built by robots, which we cannot tell if they are suffering, although it is safe to assume they are not.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 13:39 |
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Jobbo_Fett posted:My phone and computer were built by robots, which we cannot tell if they are suffering, although it is safe to assume they are not. Maybe in it's final stages but getting the metals and plastics and putting various bits together probably involved a load of shady 10-killed-a-day mines and 100 hour work week sweatshops unless you've found a place that makes phones from the ground up ensuring nothing ever comes from a source that's kind of poo poo, from extraction to taking it off the counter. The globalised economy is pretty much entirely built on suffering.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 13:55 |
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Jobbo_Fett posted:My phone and computer were built by robots, which we cannot tell if they are suffering, although it is safe to assume they are not. I'm 100% sure there's some Southeast Asian sweatshop kid, or quasi-enslaved lithium miner/reclaimer/or whatever in the chain from raw materials to your phone.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 13:56 |
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Pontius Pilate posted:My dad (here's your opportunity my dad) was in the USN for nearly 25 years and he got flags from both the Saudi navy and the Soviet navy; I have both hung up even if they're pretty questionable. So long as it isn't nazi stuff you're probably okay. What do you mean he 'got flags'? Did he nick them? Do naval officers award each other their flags as a sign of respect? Are they trophies of conquered foes, like the way banners are in Game of Thrones?
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 13:57 |
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Osama Dozen-Dongs posted:Do you guys already have plans for when police body cameras come to wide use? There was already a case in Finland where a guy with a snazzy black and red outfit got busted for fabricated police brutality with crystal clear footage of him "being beaten unconscious and getting his arm broken." the owner was the municipality of Copenhagen, who gave the House free of prerequisites to the youth of the city, as per the agreement of 1981, so could you kindly stop lying and gently caress off? HEY GAL posted:tell me more about anti police pikes Oh have I got a pike story for yas: I never were able to determine if this happened, but allegedly rioters pierced an apc with a hollow steel pike, poured gas through it and lit it, thus forcing the crew to leave it! E: I saw the aftermath, but by then it was proper torched and it was hard to tell what had happened. Tias fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Dec 18, 2016 |
# ? Dec 18, 2016 14:01 |
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Thanqol posted:What do you mean he 'got flags'? Did he nick them? Do naval officers award each other their flags as a sign of respect? Are they trophies of conquered foes, like the way banners are in Game of Thrones? Could be that they traded stuff for the flags. Can't imagine that Saudi Arabia or the USSR would have many US flags in circulation.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 14:19 |
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Thanks for writing about the riots, tias, I'd never have guessed that would be happening in Denmark.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 14:23 |
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Is there any other conflict with as many alcoholics in charge as the thirty years war? I'm reading Peter Wilson's book now and I have quite honestly lost count about how many times I have read about some general turning into a alcoholic or losing control of their troops because they were blind drunk for a couple of days.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 14:40 |
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david_a posted:That's actually one of the (many) reasons I don't own a Mosin. I would be creeped out having one in the house if (based on the dates and wear) there was a fair chance it was used to kill someone, so I completely empathize about the Serbian bag even if that's a much milder case. Didn't the Soviets shoot a lot of deserters? I sympathize with someone being uncomfortable about owning a weapon that may have killed someone. Different people can have different views, but I hope that people that feel that way can have some kind of appreciation for people who take care of such weapons to preserve them. My Enfield was the first C&R I own that certainly saw action, but when I saw the thing collecting rust in some Gomer's poorly-maintained shop, I'd rather something that was a part of history be treated with dignity and not end up in too awful shape to even display in a museum in the future. Soviets shot deserters like anyone else, and going by records they didn't really do it more than anybody (by percentage). If you're asking about the common misconception about them having Enemy at the Gates-style blocking detachments mowing down retreating friendlies, then no that wasn't a thing. As far as the statute of limitations goes, not a lot of people think of guns the same way they do of antique blades or bows or something. Lots of countries currently destroy relic firearms, and people who don't know what they own here in the US regularly give them away in buybacks that result in the same thing. There are varying opinions, but I'd rather see a gun deactivated and donated to a museum or educational program than have it completely scrapped. I just don't want us to be a few decades down the line and not have certain important firearms just because of political arguments of a certain window in time.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 14:41 |
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Pump it up! Do it! posted:Is there any other conflict with as many alcoholics in charge as the thirty years war? I'm reading Peter Wilson's book now and I have quite honestly lost count about how many times I have read about some general turning into a alcoholic or losing control of their troops because they were blind drunk for a couple of days. edit: and swedes i guess, baner was an alcoholic--and a mean drunk
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 15:11 |
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david_a posted:I don't really understand the question. Isn't "being imprinted in your nightmares" the answer? Well giving people nightmares ten years down the road is probably low on the list of military priorities, but this: OwlFancier posted:A bomb going off is scary, but if you hear it, it didn't hit you. makes perfect sense to me. Thanks!
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 15:47 |
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Plan Z posted:I sympathize with someone being uncomfortable about owning a weapon that may have killed someone. Different people can have different views, but I hope that people that feel that way can have some kind of appreciation for people who take care of such weapons to preserve them. My Enfield was the first C&R I own that certainly saw action, but when I saw the thing collecting rust in some Gomer's poorly-maintained shop, I'd rather something that was a part of history be treated with dignity and not end up in too awful shape to even display in a museum in the future. But that doesn't mean it bothers me if other people have them (unless you exclusively collect SS Mausers or something equally creepy). Also I've shot somebody else's Mosin and let's not pretend there aren't a myriad of purely objective reasons for not wanting to own one The only reason I brought up Soviet deserters was that it might be tempting to say that a Mosin only shot Evil Germans or something.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 16:10 |
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david_a posted:My personal issues with it are more wrapped up in a strong distaste for some elements of US gun culture. I would have slight issues owning a gun specifically designed to kill humans (even if it was modern) so owning one that actually might have is obviously worse. I don't seem to be the only conflicted liberal gun owner judging by some things I've seen in TFR. If someone honestly believes that Mosins were only used against Evil Germans, they clearly don't know about how widespread its use was.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 16:24 |
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In proportionate terms it's vanishingly unlikely any particular mosin was used to shoot any deserters and indeed pretty drat unlikely it shot and killed anyone at all.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 16:26 |
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david_a posted:I would have slight issues owning a gun specifically designed to kill humans (even if it was modern) so owning one that actually might have is obviously worse.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 16:32 |
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chitoryu12 posted:I think I have the same bag, based on your description. It's totally nondescript and nobody would ever pin it as a war relic unless you told them so. Shouldn't you tell him about the episode you had after purchasing that bag when you started posting nothing more than SRBIJA MILOSEVIC KOSOVO until an exorcist paid a visit
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 16:32 |
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What is that supposed to mean?
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 17:03 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 15:26 |
Boiled Water posted:Your phones, computers and clothes are all a product of human suffering and you argue about ghosts in guns. A gun is a gun and a sword is a sword. They are just tools really, I'm usually more concerned about the power and ideas associated with them as well as the people that are using/used them.
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# ? Dec 18, 2016 17:12 |