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tote up a bags posted:They seriously need to mix up the postgame, because currently it is: I agree, one thing they could do is flesh out some of the WizLabs into full branches, up the difficulty, and add runes. A lot of them are thematic and unique, and it sucks that they are so rare.
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Dec 19, 2016 04:44
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| # ? May 13, 2024 22:06 |
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I've got an Ogre FE that has had good book luck and I took an early Ash altar. Ogre has always been fun but I'm enjoying this one a lot. Also, Ash has me swinging this loving giant club still
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Dec 19, 2016 04:55
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Yes, we know rMut isn't coming back. Doesn't change the fact that malmutate as it stands now is a lovely mechanic that isn't fun to deal with or play around. It just sucks. This has been explained to you repeatedly though so if you're not gonna listen why even bring it up? VVV No it didn't. They just removed rMut and the only change to mutate was that Neqoxec spawn less often in Pan. Too bad they and Cacodemons still spawn all the loving time! Neqos are fragile anyways. You can actually play around their malmutate, its just insanely tedious to do so in extended because there are so many. OoFs are the real problem now. There's no meaningful counterplay to their malmutate. They are too tanky to kill quickly so you just have to buff up and pray they don't give you one of the crippling mutations. And even then, there are still cases where you can get mutated by something like a shining eye the second it enters your LOS. I literally autoexplored into malmutate once. What is the counterplay supposed to be there? Always have a stealth investment and never make noise? Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 05:00
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I thought Malmutate was going to get a look-over when rMut got removed. Did that ever happen?
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Dec 19, 2016 05:01
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I literally don't care if rMut removed choices because it certainly protected fun, the much more important factor of any game As far as I'm concerned, Malmutate is still and will always be, if kept in its current form, the worst part of the game. Prism posted:I thought Malmutate was going to get a look-over when rMut got removed. Did that ever happen? Nope.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:03
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My experience with malmutate is that is psychologically really frustrating. Is -10% MP really going to affect my game? Probably not. But I feel that my character has been permanently weakened by a single encounter, something that is not present anywhere else in the game (rot is very easy to remove). In fact, the devs already eliminated the other big source of that: corrosion.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:19
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Mighty Dicktron posted:Nope. I see. That's a shame, as I thought - with the removal of permanent acid damage to items and in fact item destruction in general - the trend was increasingly to give you fewer penalties from a single bad encounter that linger for an extremely long period of time (aside from death, of course). Basically as Smiling Knight says.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:27
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I played a relatively successful Ogre Warper, but didn't learn as much as I hoped, due to some strange good RNG, like a decent mutagenic quarterstaff off the floor before lair and my first oka gift being a randart storm dragon scales. Still, from my other attempts, I "learnt" three other things. Ogres have a pretty lovely start, and that isn't all that different from how it was before. No 1 & 2 culprits were adders and orc wizards confusing me. While the latter are just par for the course, the adders are the real dicks and it's quite possible there was no smart choice available on D:2, either before or during the fight. They suck. Rather than bump them down, why not nerf their EV from 15 to 10 so they can still poison you to death for a stupid action, but also make it probable that you actually survive that first encounter if you do everything right? And yes, I don't know much I'm just being bitter. The negative apts m&f really don't help much with their rough start though it is nice when your spells actually come along at a reasonable time frame. Giving them +1 apt might be a big help as was mentioned in several places, but as an avenue for my own further investigation, my only successful Ogre - in addition to stupid luck- also went into fighting very heavily, thoroughly neglecting mindelay till around 8 or 10 fighting. Being a Warper was also a nasty way to spread my exp thin, otherwise... But I expect weapon focused Ogre will have a fairly lovely time. I've overcome mediocre apts with other combos, but large does come with enough drawbacks I'm skeptical of how much fun I'll have. I will need to get a few more games under way, a Warper with the afore mentioned Fighting/translocations only focus, and a more varied class sample. I also need to think up what might actually be a fun reason to play them, it's not like I haven't played enough to burn out. I'm also going to more highly value gods like fedhas who can actually do something about keeping you alive. Finally, gently caress adders. They really don't feel like belong on D:2 as is- can't run, can't hit, can't cure, can maybe close a door, can't even throw crap stones at them with any real potential, they're just a die roll to death. Other than letting their EV I do have one stupid idea in the name of "realism" - snakes aren't that fast except when they strike. Make them slow and reaching like turtles instead, introducing the mechanic somewhere before shoals.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:28
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LordSloth posted:Finally, gently caress adders. They really don't feel like belong on D:2 as is- can't run, can't hit, can't cure, can maybe close a door, can't even throw crap stones at them with any real potential, they're just a die roll to death. Other than letting their EV I do have one stupid idea in the name of "realism" - snakes aren't that fast except when they strike. Make them slow and reaching like turtles instead, introducing the mechanic somewhere before shoals. I actually like that concept, though I'd go so far as to suggest they should move slowly but not attack slowly, like nagas. (But still introduce reaching.)
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Dec 19, 2016 05:29
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Yeah adders don't belong on D:2. They belong on D:1 as the first enemy you see, ruining your streak.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:30
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Internet Kraken posted:Neqos are fragile anyways. You can actually play around their malmutate, its just insanely tedious to do so in extended because there are so many. OoFs are the real problem now. There's no meaningful counterplay to their malmutate. They are too tanky to kill quickly so you just have to buff up and pray they don't give you one of the crippling mutations. Even if malmutate in the rest of the game was changed, OoFs having an irresistible True Malmutate or something would be fine. It'd just mean that Zot 5 is always the last level of the game you do, because you're always going to come out of it with a bunch of negative mutations such that the stacking random debuffs on your character are just part of the difficulty of the final level + orb run.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:53
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I think maybe Neqoxeq malmutate should be made temporary and the success chance increased to compensate. That way you get a nice progression of temp mutation > lots of temp mutations (those star guys in the abyss) > permanent mutations from Orbs of Fire.
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Dec 19, 2016 05:57
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You could also make neqo/caco malmutate into an OoD-like drifting glob of flesh or radiation that automatically mutates you on impact.
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Dec 19, 2016 06:00
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Ferrinus posted:Even if malmutate in the rest of the game was changed, OoFs having an irresistible True Malmutate or something would be fine. It'd just mean that Zot 5 is always the last level of the game you do, because you're always going to come out of it with a bunch of negative mutations such that the stacking random debuffs on your character are just part of the difficulty of the final level + orb run. As long as mutations like berserkitis and teleportitis exist, you can't let OoFs give irresistable mutations and consider it good design. Especially now that teleports always take longer in Zot. Getting thrown into a bad situation is way more lethal with delayed teleports, and those mutations can easily put you in them through no error in your play. So when it comes to OoFs you just have to hit them and pray they don't give the lovely mutations. Or that you have enough cure mutation pots to chug any time you get one. That's not good design though. That's just a resource check. Its no better than the old rMut system.
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Dec 19, 2016 06:01
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Chei gives some nice benefits, but making it more difficult to run away from an Orc Warlord (with an axe of distortion) on O:2 is a very good drawback. Time to do L:6 or D.
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Dec 19, 2016 06:09
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Gnolls already introduce the reaching mechanic on D1. When you leave the entrance vault and run face first into a halberd gnoll you remember this fact.Internet Kraken posted:Quicksilver dragon and purple draconian breath dispels buffs. The Iron Serpent of Hell can also breath a dispelling beam. Not sure if anything else has access to that.
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Dec 19, 2016 07:04
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Internet Kraken posted:As long as mutations like berserkitis and teleportitis exist, you can't let OoFs give irresistable mutations and consider it good design. Especially now that teleports always take longer in Zot. Getting thrown into a bad situation is way more lethal with delayed teleports, and those mutations can easily put you in them through no error in your play. So when it comes to OoFs you just have to hit them and pray they don't give the lovely mutations. Or that you have enough cure mutation pots to chug any time you get one. That's not good design though. That's just a resource check. Its no better than the old rMut system. I mean, the chance of them giving you specifically one of those two mutations is low, and then those have their own random chance to fire, and so on. It's definitely a really horrible thing to happen to a guy but I don't think it disqualifies "Zot 5 effectively has irresistible mutagenic background radiation" as a game concept.
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Dec 19, 2016 07:06
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lazorexplosion posted:Saying 'we can just replace wands of haste with more haste potions' fundamentally misunderstands an aspect of game design. Haste is too powerful to be put on a wand, especially one that doesn't require any skill investment to use. The ability to recharge wands means that finding a haste wand gives you near-unlimited use of the most powerful buff in the game. Haste wands remove the resource management aspect that makes haste balanced.
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Dec 19, 2016 08:00
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Do we get Pak back at least? :P
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Dec 19, 2016 08:06
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Then make it so it scales with evo. 0 skill means the haste only lasts a few turns.
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Dec 19, 2016 08:21
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the hells are so boring and lovely you could literally replace all 4 of them with 1 tile wide hallways crammed with demons that have 3x3 rooms at the end with the hell lord, rune and a handful of items. every now and then you get randomly hit with some poo poo like more demons, glow or whatever else.
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Dec 19, 2016 08:27
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SirSamVimes posted:Then make it so it scales with evo. 0 skill means the haste only lasts a few turns. Does HW scale at all? I've always invested a little in evocations after finding one to try and squeek some extra benefit out of it. Carcer fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 09:09
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Carcer posted:Does HW scale at all? I've always invested a little in evocations after finding one to try and squeek some extra benefit out of it. No. The only big three wand to scale with evo is teleport, and that's only when using it offensively (i.e. when you'd be using a hex wand instead).
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Dec 19, 2016 09:42
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I'm doing Pan for the second time ever and I already think it's incredibly tedious. In Hells you know when you are getting close to a rune, there's actual loot, and hell effects discouraging waiting is an actually pretty interesting mechanic imo. Pan is just boring.
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Dec 19, 2016 10:56
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The none-rune hell floors exist to make you pay the torment tax. With pan the pan lord vaults sometimes have ok loot.
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Dec 19, 2016 11:25
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Hell effects are terrible because 99% of the time they don't actually punish you for resting, they just make resting annoying. I'm not convinced the game needs two zones that punish resting anyways, and the abyss implements it much much better.
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Dec 19, 2016 12:29
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When you kill Dowan, sometimes Duvessa says she will go to hell to retrieve him. FR: replace garbage chaff in hells with the ghosts of uniques you killed with their HD and stats ramped up. Anything is better than more wight fights. Carcer posted:The none-rune hell floors exist to make you pay the torment tax. With pan the pan lord vaults sometimes have ok loot. Cerebovs castle has loot, mnolegs domain sometimes has a couple items, and the other two have basically nothing. Holy pan has good loot but random pan lord vaults are a total crapshoot, barely above floorgod levels. Hell is loaded down with valuables, even if you usually ignore 80% of them because you're already kitted up. Pan is kinda boring because you visit 20-40 floors in a game but spend very little time in most of them. If it's not a unique level you find the nearest portal and leave, there's really no incentive to stick around and explore. Hell has a similar problem but the floors are fixed and provide an obstacle to the rune, with Pan you're just rolling dice hoping to get lucky.
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Dec 19, 2016 13:40
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I assume that those of you interested in these questions are familiar with the 0.20 development plan. No guarantees that all/any of this will actually happen, but these are the current ideas. More obsure is the c-r-d mailing list. I won't have time to discuss all of this in detail, but I thought some of you might want to know what's going on.
dpeg fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 13:52
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The pandemonium disco palace nearly killed me.
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Dec 19, 2016 14:03
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dpeg posted:
What's being discussed on food? Asking because I'm realizing that there are way too many types of food -- makes inventory management even more of an issue. I mean, I get the use of meat vs non-meat foods -- but maybe we shouldn't have multiple variations of each type?
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Dec 19, 2016 15:01
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Where are my Zigurats in pan? I was promised Zigurats.
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Dec 19, 2016 15:02
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dpeg posted:I assume that those of you interested in these questions are familiar with the 0.20 development plan. No guarantees that all/any of this will actually happen, but these are the current ideas. More obsure is the c-r-d mailing list. I won't have time to discuss all of this in detail, but I thought some of you might want to know what's going on. Thanks. I didn't know about these.
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Dec 19, 2016 15:08
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E Equals MC Hammer posted:Where are my Zigurats in pan? I was promised Zigurats. They don't exist. If you want a ziggurat you need to find a figurine at the end of crypt and I think there's another one at the end of crypt. You'll get a "refund" if you finish the ziggurat completely.
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Dec 19, 2016 15:53
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Suggesting that someone read/join the c.r.d mailing list seems like a form of cruel and unusual punishment that ought to be unconstitutional. Then again, maybe you enjoy occasional bouts of "what can I cut/take away to feel again?", interspersed between random technical quesions/fixes.
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Dec 19, 2016 15:53
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Ugly John posted:Suggesting that someone read/join the c.r.d mailing list seems like a form of cruel and unusual punishment that ought to be unconstitutional. Then again, maybe you enjoy occasional bouts of "what can I cut/take away to feel again?", interspersed between random technical quesions/fixes. This game is developed by us and for us. The idea is that making the game good for us does make it good enough for many other people (certainly not everyone, but that's a hopeless proposition anyway). I provided these two links because some people here seem interested in where the decisions come from. None of this is hidden, feel free to read and discuss. (By the way, for everyday development, the IRC channel is most relevant.) If you happen to be too cool/young/arrogant for a mailing list: your loss!
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Dec 19, 2016 16:39
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I think people are largely interested in determining the rationale behind decisions. The notes are often cryptic, perhaps because the author unconsciously assumes everyone who reads it is in some way familiar with the discussions that preceded the change.
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Dec 19, 2016 16:46
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CRAZY GARBAGE
Somebody fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 16:49
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Carcer posted:They don't exist. If you want a ziggurat you need to find a figurine at the end of crypt and I think there's another one at the end of crypt. You'll get a "refund" if you finish the ziggurat completely. How badass do you need to be to finish the entire zig? I've only been in one once, and around lvl14 it got very difficult. I think that level was a pack of pan lords plus retinue.
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Dec 19, 2016 16:50
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HateCrimeDoxNet posted:(snip) I don't know if all of this can be implemented in time for 0.20, though.
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Dec 19, 2016 16:53
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| # ? May 13, 2024 22:06 |
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Hey: before bringing back Pakellas, bring back Singularity. Just pick between one and three of these balance fixes: make it tloc/hexes 9, forbid it from affecting stuff you can't see, make the singularity itself a traversable square rather than an obstacle (it blinks or teleports anything entering it, maybe?)
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Dec 19, 2016 16:58
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