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Is it time for the 20-pagely rehash of natalism arguments? Statistically world population growth rates peaked a long time ago and it's now tapering. In my opinion the bulk of the concern should be shifted towards how increasing lifespans and the previously-reference "demographic catastrophe" are subsidized by carbon-intensive luxuries and technologies. Of course this requires an entirely intersectional approach encompassing goddamn every level of society to address everything from cultural attitudes about death to market regulations and tax schemes for social security. I guess there's isn't much else to discuss beyond doom&gloom reporting. Edit for some content I guess: you can play with some well-sourced population data here at this site maintained by Oxford University's Martin School.
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Dec 19, 2016 19:33
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Ol Standard Retard posted:I guess there's isn't much else to discuss beyond doom&gloom reporting. To be frank I don't think much can be accomplished on climate change mitigation in the US over the next 4 years. In my opinion climate change advocacy now overlaps completely with getting Democrats back into power at all levels. It's unfortunate, but climate change mitigation is now a thoroughly partisan issue. Regarding the rest of the world, I posted some commentary on Canada's mediocre climate change mitigation plan a few days ago. It's probably the best that can be achieved as long as the federal Conservatives are owned by Alberta oil interests or the NDP somehow revives (hah). Maybe there's some scope for discussing how to get Europe (and Germany especially) to start building nuclear again? There's nothing that people in this thread can do to directly reduce emissions in China and India, that requires a strong international framework which in turn requires the world's largest economy to actually participate. Maybe people can discuss local mitigation / resiliency efforts / bunker designs?
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Dec 19, 2016 19:48
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Much effort is being spent on posting "your thinking frames humans as inherently destructive" or "we should approach this as stewards." gently caress that philosophical thought police nonsense. Climate change projections call for a reduction in emissions asap, I don't care for any other reasoning or need than "97% of the scientific community thinks ACC is a severe issue" to make personal choices that reduce emissions asap. I take public transit as much as possible now because I required that my next residence be near a commuter train. I'm saving for a small house down payment to include solar from the outset. My spouse and I will be adopting instead of having a kid because that eliminates 1 share of food and water, absolutely, period. We give monthly to Bernie and several local charities / shelters. I've stopped overbuying and thus overeating animal protein and am losing weight like a motherfucker. I might go vegetarian soon not because meat is murder but because its generally inefficient to farm at present and we stand to keep saving a lot on groceries. Trashless Thursday has been loving hard, but eye opening. God drat it we live like such pigs. The ongoing challenge is going to be continuing to remain vigilant and not get comfy with just enough reduction in my life. All this requires no philosophical basis other than a nod to climate science and a sense of personal responsibility.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:23
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Potato Salad posted:All this requires no philosophical basis other than a nod to climate science and a sense of personal responsibility. Also, I learned that Trashless Thursday is a Thing, and apparently meat is unsustainable? poo poo, that's gonna be hard for me.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:42
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The part that trips me up is that it is clear to me at least that a truly radical rethink of how humans exist in the world generally is needed (i.e. abandon the fantasy of unlimited growth,) but I both a) can't imagine what that would look like and b) can't imagine how we would shift to that in the needed timeframe without causing chaos and mass upheaval. I mean, I can change my own life, but I want to imagine what a stable world with no growth would look like and I can't.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:46
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Mozi posted:I mean, I can change my own life, but I want to imagine what a stable world with no growth would look like and I can't. On the other hand, it's possible that it will be marked more by no "material growth", while people still fight endlessly for bigger slices of the now totally stable pie.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:51
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I think the capitalist system that we have based our world on depends on continual growth otherwise it completely falls apart. The way the springs are coming out as a result of the stagnation after the Great Recession indicates to me that the people at the top are always going to steal a certain amount and if growth isn't high enough, there isn't enough left over for the less well-off which leads to instability. So envisioning a no-growth stable world means envisioning one that is not based on market capitalism.
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Dec 19, 2016 20:54
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What's trash less Thursday? Not throwing things away on Thursday?
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Dec 19, 2016 21:22
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Idk if there's an actual Thing, but someone months ago mentioned where s/he tries to go one day a week without generating landfill waste. It took some preparation, but we've started doing it. It's loving hard. Not just "don't throw anything out on Thursday, don't do anything thursday or in preparation for thursday that generates trash." So, unwrapping / uncanning dinner ingredients and putting them in bowls in the fridge the day before wouldn't count to me. I need to walk a few blocks to Kroger with reusable bags and a hanging cart, get veggies w/o using those little individual plastic bags, etc. I live in Atlanta, so I have to occasionally get grits in bulk from a farmers market. There's a farmer I can get eggs and pork from through a coworker every Monday in tupperware. I'm still looking for a way to get cheese without plastic wrapping on it. Its a lot of work. Almost overwhelming. I can see how pre-industrial bricollage / reuse society demanded someone (women or domestic servants) to work all day at home just to keep a family going. There's so many little details to take care of when you can't just buy box, open box, throw box away. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 22:12
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Potato Salad posted:Idk if there's an actual Thing, but someone months ago mentioned where s/he tries to go one day a week without generating landfill waste. It took some preparation, but we've started doing it. It's loving hard. this country has no hope if people think not making garbage for 24 hours is difficult
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Dec 19, 2016 22:14
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NewForumSoftware posted:this country has no hope if people think not making garbage for 24 hours is difficult Hint: if your mom makes garbage when she cooks you dinner and packs your lunch, it counts too. And "I'll throw this away tomorrow" doesn't count either.
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Dec 19, 2016 22:16
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Trabisnikof posted:Hint: if your mom makes garbage when she cooks you dinner and packs your lunch, it counts too. pro tip: don't own a car and don't buy food wrapped in plastic wow that was really hard how else are you making garbage exactly throughout the day?
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Dec 19, 2016 22:16
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NewForumSoftware posted:this country has no hope if people think not making garbage for 24 hours is difficult What a wonderful contribution. My post above added for detail. It is harder than you think. We generate a lot of trash through the day thoughtlessly beyond just food. ANd buying food not wrapped in plastic or in a cardboard box? Walk through your grocery store and try to buy anything other than fresh veggies and fruit -- anything -- not in that condition. Even flour comes in a loving paper bag. Ma and Pa shops that sell scoop-your-own bulk are a rarity in the States. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 22:21
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quote:So, unwrapping / uncanning dinner ingredients and putting them in bowls in the fridge the day before wouldn't count to me. I need to walk a few blocks to Kroger with reusable bags and a hanging cart, get veggies w/o using those little individual plastic bags, etc. I live in Atlanta, so I have to occasionally get grits in bulk from a farmers market. There's a farmer I can get eggs and pork from through a coworker every Monday in tupperware. I'm still looking for a way to get cheese without plastic wrapping on it. Please tell me you are joking. Potato Salad posted:My post above added for detail. It is harder than you think. We generate a lot of trash through the day thoughtlessly beyond just food. Clearly. Maybe you should try being a decent person instead of a consumer robot?
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Dec 19, 2016 22:22
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NewForumSoftware posted:pro tip: don't own a car and don't buy food wrapped in plastic It gets a lot harder if you have to make meals for a family, and if your local shops don't cooperate.
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Dec 19, 2016 22:22
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NewForumSoftware posted:pro tip: don't own a car and don't buy food wrapped in plastic Lol if you think owning a car is a daily source of garbage. Do you do your own composting or have city service? Just walk through your meals and realize that just because you won't throw out the trash from it today, doesn't mean your meal was waste free. Cold cereals are a good example, you can't recycle that plastic bag it is too thin. Cardboard milk containers are another one, many compost systems can't take them and many recyclers can't either because of the plastic liner on the inside. Of course, if you just throw non-recyclables in the recycling you can reduce your garbage real quick, by forcing someone to hand pick your garbage out of the recycling and causing far worse climate harms than just throwing it away yourself.
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Dec 19, 2016 22:23
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Fangz posted:It gets a lot harder if you have to make meals for a family, and if your local shops don't cooperate. your local shops don't cooperate? im sorry im pretty sure he has access to a grocery store im sorry but if not throwing anything away for a day overwhelms you good luck making it in the future Trabisnikof posted:Just walk through your meals and realize that just because you won't throw out the trash from it today, doesn't mean your meal was waste free. Cold cereals are a good example, you can't recycle that plastic bag it is too thin. Cardboard milk containers are another one, many compost systems can't take them and many recyclers can't either because of the plastic liner on the inside. dude you don't have to tell me how much food waste is in america. its really not that hard to avoid it if you actually make an effort. ask the butcher to wrap your meat behind the counter with paper (they all have it), bring reusable bags, don't buy boxed dinners im sorry but if a first worlder wants to claim thats overwhelming just lol
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Dec 19, 2016 22:23
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NewForumSoftware posted:Please tell me you are joking. loving own, umph, man. I need to step outside and beat my meat furiously to this guy's wokeness. NewForumSoftware posted:your local shops don't cooperate? im sorry im pretty sure he has access to a grocery store Much of the US has spent decades running butchers out of business. In a box store world, this is a challenge. I could go drive to a polish butcher, but that expends about a quarter gallon of gas. Same for a greengrocer. I can also drive out to any number of farmer stands outside the perimeter and buy flour, but that's going to expend more petroleum fuel. One plan atm is to make those few gasoline-based trips count as much as possible w/ resealable 5-gallon PVC barrels. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 22:24
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NewForumSoftware posted:your local shops don't cooperate? im sorry im pretty sure he has access to a grocery store You're missing the point. Building a trash pile by your basement bed isn't the point. Seriously, you think your last 6 meals all had no waste associated with them?
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Dec 19, 2016 22:25
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Potato Salad posted:loving own, umph, man. Alternatively actually do something about climate issues instead of just posting about it. I'm sorry but "not throwing anything away for a day" falls under "funny things white people pretend are hard". Trabisnikof posted:Seriously, you think your last 6 meals all had no waste associated with them? Yes? But I'm pretty mindful of how I eat and recycle as much as I can. I'll give you not generating ANY garbage for a month would be tough, but 24 hours? Give me a break
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Dec 19, 2016 22:25
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So go do something about it if it's so easy instead of shitposting a stream of idiotic diarrhea over the forums.
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Dec 19, 2016 22:26
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Mozi posted:So go do something about it if it's so easy instead of shitposting a stream of idiotic diarrhea over the forums. I already am, I didn't make any garbage yet today so im doing my part was really hard, had to use my reusable coffee mug and eat an apple for lunch. i almost cried when I had to recycle a beer bottle from last night instead of just chucking it off my balcony onto the street
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Dec 19, 2016 22:27
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NewForumSoftware posted:I already am, I didn't make any garbage yet today so im doing my part Did you eat the core? What happened to your coffee grounds?
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Dec 19, 2016 22:29
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"I don't generate any waste except for my dozens of lovely posts"
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Dec 19, 2016 22:29
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Trabisnikof posted:Did you eat the core? What happened to your coffee grounds? Composting like any decent human being https://www.amazon.com/Urban-Homestead-Expanded-Revised-Self-Sufficient/dp/1934170100 Seriously this information is not hard to find, anyone in this thread pretending to care should have done this long ago
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Dec 19, 2016 22:29
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NewForumSoftware posted:your local shops don't cooperate? im sorry im pretty sure he has access to a grocery store It seriously depends on what grocery stores are near you and how they package your food. Literally the only non-packaged produce at my local is vegetables and fruit... and that is stocked in cardboard and foam boxes in the store itself.
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Dec 19, 2016 22:29
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NewForumSoftware posted:Composting like any decent human being Do you have city service or space at home to do it?
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Dec 19, 2016 22:29
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Trabisnikof posted:Do you have city service or space at home to do it? everyone does http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/how-to-make-your-own-indoor-compost-bin-138645 trigger warning: attempting to build an indoor compost bin may overwhelm you if you're not used to thinking about your environment impact Fangz posted:It seriously depends on what grocery stores are near you and how they package your food. Literally the only non-packaged produce at my local is vegetables and fruit... and that is stocked in cardboard and foam boxes in the store itself. where do you live because I literally don't believe you also cardboard can be recycled NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 22:30
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Not generating waste to live is almost a trick question. First, good on Potato Salad for trying to use less and getting creative to do it, I think that's really cool. Ultimately of course you are generating waste/pollution to some degree when you consume anything, and it's only a matter of how far back you have to go through the production chain to find it. That makes it a good litmus test for finding bloviating trolls, because anyone who claims that their food is waste free is obviously lying.
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Dec 19, 2016 22:34
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Salt Fish posted:That makes it a good litmus test for finding bloviating trolls, because anyone who claims that their food is waste free is obviously lying. I'm not claiming my food is waste free, I'm claiming that not generating garbage for 24 hours is trivial and if it's something that overwhelms you it may be best you just give up now on trying to pretend to be "ecologically aware" It would be different if it was just some random guy dropping in to say this. I get it, most people aren't aware. But this guy has five pages of posts in this thread about climate change. Salt Fish posted:Why do you think I was talking about you? You self identify as a bloviating troll? Because it was clearly in reference to my posts but feel free to claim otherwise. NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 22:35
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NewForumSoftware posted:I'm not claiming my food is waste free, I'm claiming that not generating garbage for 24 hours is trivial and if it's something that overwhelms you it may be best you just give up now on trying to pretend to be "ecologically aware" Why do you think I was talking about you? You self identify as a bloviating troll?
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Dec 19, 2016 22:36
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Mozi posted:The part that trips me up is that it is clear to me at least that a truly radical rethink of how humans exist in the world generally is needed (i.e. abandon the fantasy of unlimited growth,) but I both a) can't imagine what that would look like and b) can't imagine how we would shift to that in the needed timeframe without causing chaos and mass upheaval. read 1984
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Dec 19, 2016 22:40
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Seriously, cutting down on waste is good and important and it's useful to share ideas. But this mocking tone of "pfft, it's easy, how silly you find it difficult" on the basis of zero knowledge of people's living situation seriously doesn't help. That said I'm not all that sure that no-landfill allies well with reducing emissions. Hydrocarbons used for plastics won't be burnt. Probably having a meat-free day would be better in terms of overall impact, if you can't go full vegetarian yet.
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Dec 19, 2016 22:40
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NewForumSoftware posted:everyone does Huh. NewForumSoftware posted:where do you live because I literally don't believe you Where do you live, because having lived up and down every state touching the Atlantic in the US excepting for Maine and New Hampshire, my experience with grocery stores is you either live in a city with density that can still support small stores that can sell unpackaged cereal crops, have to drive far to get to one because public transit is poo poo and you've wasted the purpose in gas, or buy from stores where everything is packaged and barcoded except for fruits and vegetables, and even then some fruits and veggies come in bags. That's, like, the standard experience and I'm wondering what yours is. NewForumSoftware posted:also cardboard can be recycled Cardboard can be recycled after purchase and use, but buying it in packaging still consumes some energy. I gave some thought to buying poo poo in postconsumer paper / cardboard but ultimately decided that would really not solve the issue of finding a good way to transition over to leaving packaged goods altogether.
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Dec 19, 2016 22:42
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Potato Salad posted:Where do you live, because having lived up and down every state touching the Atlantic in the US excepting for Maine and New Hampshire, my experience with grocery stores is you either live in a city with density that can still support small stores that can sell unpackaged cereal crops, have to drive far to get to one because public transit is poo poo and you've wasted the purpose in gas, or buy from stores where everything is packaged and barcoded except for fruits and vegetables, and even then some fruits and veggies come in bags. That's, like, the standard experience and I'm wondering what yours is. I've lived (on the east coast at least) in Vermont, Connecticut, New York, Ohio, South Carolina and North Carolina. Nobody makes you put fruits and veggies in a disposable bag anywhere. Unpackaged (and/or sustainably packaged) cereal crops (especially rice) are pretty much available everywhere. I live on the west coast now and I can tell you it's the same in Colorado, Oregon, and Washington quote:Cardboard can be recycled after purchase and use, but buying it in packaging still consumes some energy. I gave some thought to buying poo poo in postconsumer paper / cardboard but ultimately decided that would really not solve the issue of finding a good way to transition over to leaving packaged goods altogether. When did you say anything about consuming energy? You literally can't go a day without consuming energy so good luck I guess? Pretending like packaging can't be done sustainably is kind of silly. I'm not sure what exactly you're having trouble not buying wrapped in plastic.
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Dec 19, 2016 22:46
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Just eating fruits and veggies isn't going to work long term. I literally can't buy cheese in this loving town that doesn't have saran wrap on it unless I drive fifteen loving miles through traffic and burn up an assload of energy. Eggs + pork became available just because a coworker already lives out in countryside and already makes that commute. There's already oil on my hands with respect to those two products, in a sense...just oil that was already going to be burned. We've loving box stored ourselves into a corner. NewForumSoftware posted:When did you say anything about consuming energy? You literally can't go a day without consuming energy so good luck I guess? Pretending like packaging can't be done sustainably is kind of silly. I'm not sure what exactly you're having trouble not buying wrapped in plastic. Its not that I am trying to not use energy; it feels weird to offset landfill waste with an exceptional expenditure of gasoline. You've said it yourself, some white guy not using waste one day a week isn't going to change much; it's atm more of a thought experiment / practice trials. Just how much can I get away with? What kind of effort is most efficiently spent? I discarded a lot of preconceived notions in the first four/five weeks. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 22:46
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Nice, guys. Overreact to and misrepresent my position then don't even respond to my post, seems like you have real confidence in that keep having children per the status quo without any consideration to a changing world including ignoring the fact that a new life in 2016's carbon footprint is and will continue to be historically unprecedented world view of yours. You know, the "because one 'could' be the neo-from-the-matrix of climate change", we should keep having children at the same exact rate world view of yours. Frankly, calling to stop all talk of antinatalism in a climate change thread seems analogous to asking people to stop talking about tires in an automotive topic. It's a big loving part of the subject. It's a big loving deal to a lot of people who, unlike every preceding generation, were not presented with the FACTS of how specifically lovely life will be for their children relative to the ones they, the parents themselves, got to enjoy. Never on this scale has one had to put aside familial, social and cultural pressure to procreate because of the easily accessed information on the Internet (an invention no previous generation had anything close to in order to inform themselves of the world's situation) which when read and consumed will lead all people to an inalienable conclusion: "my life is most likely going to have been, in sum total, a way better life than the one my potential children will have". That's what I couldn't live with about having a kid. That I had a relatively chill childhood (I really didn't, my dad died when I was a kid and I was in an out of surgery from age 5 to 23 and had no father figure that stuck around ever which has caused issues for me aside from my health problems) but still, likely, relatively way better than my potential child who will have to contend with inevitably insurmountably more. This is why I only understand adoption because at least that's providing a home for one more kid rather than creating another one for the sake of vanity or it having your actual genes while that one goes hungry. So yeah if the mods really want to ban this subject from the thread, I can't stop them, but I really do not see how it isn't ON-topic.
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Dec 19, 2016 22:46
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Potato Salad posted:Just eating fruits and veggies isn't going to work long term. I literally can't buy cheese in this loving town that doesn't have saran wrap on it unless I drive fifteen loving miles through traffic and burn up an assload of energy. Eggs + pork became available just because a coworker already lives out in countryside and already makes that commute. There's already oil on my hands with respect to those two products, in a sense...just oil that was already going to be burned. Where do you live? I will help you since it seems you're incapable. You said Atlanta (lol there's going to be an absurd amount of food availability there) but please show me the neighborhood where this isn't possible. Do you ever go up to the counter at the supermarket and like ask the butcher to get you a piece of meat and wrap it in paper? they will do it, all you have to do is ask. that's at every single major supermarket in america i've ever been in
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Dec 19, 2016 22:47
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Fangz posted:Seriously, cutting down on waste is good and important and it's useful to share ideas. But this mocking tone of "pfft, it's easy, how silly you find it difficult" on the basis of zero knowledge of people's living situation seriously doesn't help. Avoiding unnecessary landfill is actually critical for emissions. First organic waste (food) is a huge source of landfill methane. That's a climate impact multiplier. They also make the landfill worse, but that's a side effect from a climate perspective. Meanwhile, recycling plastics versus entombing them is valuable for climate because of energy use. It uses less energy to recycle most plastics than to make from new petroleum sources. Meanwhile, there are enough potential petroleum resources that we will never get to the place that plastics are keeping us from burning gasoline. Glass is really the most iffy to recycle. Since it is inert in the landfill and uses about the same energy to recycle or make from sand. It falls in some horrible "depends on how far 4 different trucks have to drive" and probably varies from a location to location basis. But from a public education and policy perspective, better to keep recycling glass just to instill the norm and keep the drat bottles off the street.
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Dec 19, 2016 22:47
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Trabisnikof posted:Avoiding unnecessary landfill is actually critical for emissions. First organic waste (food) is a huge source of landfill methane. That's a climate impact multiplier. They also make the landfill worse, but that's a side effect from a climate perspective. Interesting stuff. What about paper/cardboard? Or replacing plastics with paper/cardboard?
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Dec 19, 2016 22:51
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