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Adel posted:How much of a difference in performance would you actually get between an experienced pilot and an inexperienced one? So you've got someone who can move a robot with their minds in conjunction with physical controls. What's more, all of the sensor data that robot is receiving is going directly into that pilot's brain. Who is going to be more effective in this situation - an MMA fighter and expert marksman who understands how radar and Newtonian physics work and is familiar with the mechanics of the robot in question, or some untrained teenager they pulled off a street, did some surgery on, and shoved in the cockpit because it was cheaper? Psycho Landlord fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Dec 19, 2016 |
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Dec 19, 2016 23:02
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Psycho Landlord posted:So you've got someone who can move a robot with their minds in conjunction with physical controls. What's more, all of the sensor data that robot is receiving is going directly into that pilot's brain. Knowing Gundam, the latter 
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Dec 19, 2016 23:12
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Blaze Dragon posted:Knowing Gundam, the latter Fair point.
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Dec 19, 2016 23:41
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well most street kids are just thrown into mobile workers or grunt suits
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Dec 19, 2016 23:52
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Adel posted:How much of a difference in performance would you actually get between an experienced pilot and an inexperienced one? What's the point of combat training when I already can move my body with my mind?
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Dec 19, 2016 23:55
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Adel posted:How much of a difference in performance would you actually get between an experienced pilot and an inexperienced one? The AV system allows for the pilot to directly download the manual regardless of literacy and the Gundam frame was made humanoid so it was easier/intuitive for the pilot to control; the design strongl suggests that it was made with the idea that the pilot can become proficient with it as quickly as possible regardless of previous ability. For an in-series demonstration of the difference in performance that an experienced pilot makes in a world with the AV system, look at the difference between Shino's performance and the performance of Tekkadan's other single whisker pilots. Alternatively, look at the difference between Lafter/Azee and all of the AV pilots. The AV system is effectively a massively enhanced control interface. If you don't know what to do with those controls in extremis, it doesn't matter how good your controls are, and experience has been shown to allow even unenhanced pilots to keep up with AV systems. Lafter fought Mika to nearly a standstill in their first encounter and Mika is pretty much the high water mark for monster in this show. McGillis is consistently presented as one of the most fearsome and canny pilots in the show and even he is totally flabbergasted at how difficult and dangerous it is to fight a 300 year old wreck of a mobile armor despite having basically all of the intended advantages you mention(heavy support to cut off the plumas, nanolaminate to null beams, multiple other mobile suits with elite pilots attacking the MA in concert with him).
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Dec 20, 2016 00:53
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Kanos posted:Lafter fought Mika to nearly a standstill in their first encounter and Mika is pretty much the high water mark for monster in this show. It's worth pointing out though that Mika was explicitly piloting a crippled Barbatos in that fight. In comparison Ein stepped all over her without effort.
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Dec 20, 2016 00:58
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ImpAtom posted:It's worth pointing out though that Mika was explicitly piloting a crippled Barbatos in that fight. In comparison Ein stepped all over her without effort. This is true, but Lafter was piloting an older model mass production suit at the time. It's still a pretty impressive achievement to be one of like three people in the entire show to present a challenge to Mika beyond the level of speedbump(the only other two being McGillis in their first brief encounter and Einborg). That and Lafter is shown in side scenes regularly kicking two-whisker Akihiro's rear end all over the place in practice simulations on a regular basis. I'm honestly pretty certain the reason Ein kicked Lafter/Azee's asses so one-sidedly is mostly sheer surprise value. All of a sudden this huge Graze appears and before you have time to process why it's like 30% taller than normal it pulls goofy AV system moves and that's that. The concept of Gjallarhorn fielding an AV unit, especially a three whisker AV unit mounted to a loving Graze, probably didn't enter their minds until it was too late.
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Dec 20, 2016 01:24
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It's one of those Krillin situations, but Lafter and Aznee are probably the best pilots without Gundam access. They train the other pilots for a reason, and Akihiko couldn't beat Lafter for most of season 1.
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Dec 20, 2016 02:00
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Kanos posted:This is true, but Lafter was piloting an older model mass production suit at the time. It's still a pretty impressive achievement to be one of like three people in the entire show to present a challenge to Mika beyond the level of speedbump(the only other two being McGillis in their first brief encounter and Einborg). That and Lafter is shown in side scenes regularly kicking two-whisker Akihiro's rear end all over the place in practice simulations on a regular basis. Also, Lafter was a zero-G specialist getting used to ground combat. If she'd had her Hyakuri, things might have worked out a little differently - very differently, in fact, because Ein would then be in a melee-specialist suit with no conceivable way of reaching her, and the Hyakuri's two little guns have enough firepower to shred a Gundam, let alone a Graze.
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Dec 20, 2016 02:03
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Zebulon posted:I'm kind of expecting Mika to get royally hosed up and McGillis basically obligated to use the full resources of Gjallerhorn's medical teams to try and fix him. Be it out of simple obligation for them helping him or reverence for Mika managing to kill the mobile armor. It will be pretty interesting (and horrifying) to see what kind of shape Mika ends up in after this. I can just picture it: Mika ending up as a sort of last resort pilot to send into combat, pushed into the hangar on a wheelchair by Atra.  Either way, I can see Mika stepping off the front lines for a while. Shino's new ride will probably get some more focus, and there was that one off comment about Hush having the makings of an ace pilot. If Mika ends up side-lined for a few battles, I'd like to see Hush grow into his own as a competent pilot with his mentoring.
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Dec 20, 2016 02:07
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I have to say that if Mika ends up legitimately really hosed up after this I'll be pleased. I mean not pleased that would be awful but I admit in the back of my head I'm just waiting for "and then Mika discovers how to overcome consequences through magic," likely because so few shows are really willing to do that kinda thing.
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Dec 20, 2016 02:09
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Mika is just like "i dont care if I die for you" god drat it Orga just be like, "youre my only true friend, I dont want you to die"
KoB fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 02:16
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At this rate I can easily see Mila having to live inside the Barbatos cockpit. E: or someone pushing the AV system so hard they upload their brain into their Gundam. Luminaflare fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 02:18
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After ending season one with Lafter and Azee being perfectly fine, I doubt Mika will be reduced to a non-combatant for more than a couple episodes. As weighty as having him reduced to an invalid until he's wheeled out for the climatic series finale to be hooked up to Barbatos one last time is, I can't see the writers going through with it. Having Hush suddenly put forward and trying to fill his shoes under a crippled Mika's training would be ballsy as hell, though.
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Dec 20, 2016 02:21
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genericnick posted:What's the point of combat training when I already can move my body with my mind? Why learn martial arts when you think you know how to throw a punch? There's a few indicators that point to live pilots rather than EinBorgs, like the Kimaris being a hereditary treasure, and the Order of the Seven Stars. The Seven Stars themselves have their familial hierarchy based on who scored the most kills, and I doubt that'd have been set up if it wasnt so the respective pilot was the one benefitting. I'd wager they went with a Spartan-II project like Halo's lore, recruiting/kidnapping kids and putting them through AV surgery and pilot training to fight MA's because they couldn't use adults. And then the kids told them all to gently caress right off afterwards because they're top poo poo now, and anyone who disagrees can tell it to the underside of a Gundam's rapidly-approaching foot. These guys with the most kills? They're our leaders now. And yours  .
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Dec 20, 2016 02:30
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They're not afraid to make Mika bleed from every orifice and keep his arms and eye hosed up, so he seems free for any further permanent abuse. And though Gundam openings lie like a mother fucker, he's crawling around with half his limbs non-functional.
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Dec 20, 2016 02:33
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Why learn martial arts when you think you know how to throw a punch? I have to say that would be an interesting inversion of the usual gundam formula. It's usually about how kids are the future but doing a "turns out that giving children weaponry and forcing them to fight a war creates some extremely hosed up kids, not the ideal next generation."
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Dec 20, 2016 02:36
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I'll be legitimately impressed if they go through with it.
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Dec 20, 2016 02:37
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Kanos posted:This is true, but Lafter was piloting an older model mass production suit at the time. It's still a pretty impressive achievement to be one of like three people in the entire show to present a challenge to Mika beyond the level of speedbump(the only other two being McGillis in their first brief encounter and Einborg). That and Lafter is shown in side scenes regularly kicking two-whisker Akihiro's rear end all over the place in practice simulations on a regular basis. Honestly we never really know how McGillis would fare against Mika 1v1, as Mika was never really able to engage him during that fight due to being tied up by Gaelio's Schwalbe Graze. The one who really presented a challenge to him repeatedly in the series was Gaelio. The first fight with Gaelio in the Schwalbe Graze was not too far from even, though Mika would have won, even before McGillis joined the fight. And both the real fights against Mika in Kimaris were solidly in Gaelio's favor until unexpected surprises came into play. In the first fight he had Mika dead to rights until it turned into two Gundam Frames vs. one, and the second one Mika was being overwhelmed again, but had brought equipment specifically designed to surprise and counter Gaelio. The second example could be argued due to it being deliberate strategy, but it's not like the countermeasure was even remotely thought up or designed by Mika so again it's basically outside interference. Their third encounter obviously doesn't particularly count, though Gaelio did accomplish his objective, and who knows how that final encounter would have ended if Mcgillis hadn't intervened.
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Dec 20, 2016 02:59
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ImpAtom posted:I have to say that would be an interesting inversion of the usual gundam formula. It's usually about how kids are the future but doing a "turns out that giving children weaponry and forcing them to fight a war creates some extremely hosed up kids, not the ideal next generation." It'd also explain the aversion to cybernetics; "Try this poo poo you did to us with any other kids. We dare you."
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Dec 20, 2016 03:02
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it's worth noting that a big part of tekkadan's success was because cgs was so lazy they used kids across many levels of their org such that they staffed an entire division with them. so when the chips came down, the mutineers could handle the support and mid management work. brewers used human debris only for scut work and piloting grunt suits, so they could never form their own support staff. if gjallarhorn went down that way, they probably supplanted and controlled multiple levels of their parent org
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Dec 20, 2016 03:21
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Everyman posted:After ending season one with Lafter and Azee being perfectly fine, I doubt Mika will be reduced to a non-combatant for more than a couple episodes. As weighty as having him reduced to an invalid until he's wheeled out for the climatic series finale to be hooked up to Barbatos one last time is, I can't see the writers going through with it. The only reason they spared Lafter and Azee is cause they wanted to do more with them. This is going to be the final part of this iteration. Expect death and bad stuff.
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Dec 20, 2016 03:24
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MonsterEnvy posted:The only reason they spared Lafter and Azee is cause they wanted to do more with them. This is going to be the final part of this iteration. Expect death and bad stuff. It'd be nice to believe it but if they're willing to spare people for marketability once it raises the question of if they'll do it further. If there is, for example, any rumblings of an OAV or a movie inside the studio they might hesitate to go too far.
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Dec 20, 2016 03:30
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Lord Koth posted:Honestly we never really know how McGillis would fare against Mika 1v1, as Mika was never really able to engage him during that fight due to being tied up by Gaelio's Schwalbe Graze. The one who really presented a challenge to him repeatedly in the series was Gaelio. The first fight with Gaelio in the Schwalbe Graze was not too far from even, though Mika would have won, even before McGillis joined the fight. And both the real fights against Mika in Kimaris were solidly in Gaelio's favor until unexpected surprises came into play. In the first fight he had Mika dead to rights until it turned into two Gundam Frames vs. one, and the second one Mika was being overwhelmed again, but had brought equipment specifically designed to surprise and counter Gaelio. The second example could be argued due to it being deliberate strategy, but it's not like the countermeasure was even remotely thought up or designed by Mika so again it's basically outside interference. I am going to have to question your analysis on the fights. First fight with the Schwalbe: Gaelio has the edge as he has experience with fighting with Mikazuki and thus came in with a better plan to deal with him then in the last fight. Second fight with the Schwalbe: When Mikazuki and co do a bit of planning to counter Gaelio's Gundam, they manage to render him basically useless and without outside interference on Gaelio's behalf, Mikazuki would have already killed one future head of the seven stars rather then two. Third fight with the Schwalbe: Gaelio fails as even though he stops Mika from killing Carta with a final blow, Carta still ends up dying.
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Dec 20, 2016 03:38
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Kanos posted:While the wording in the episode is ambiguous, they've never mentioned Tekkadan and Teiwaz adding safety locks of any sort after Edmonton and almost no one - including the chief mechanic who spends all of his time maintaining these things - had any idea what the hell would cause the suits to behave the way they did. Adding safety locks to prevent the Gundam going full throttle and stroking the pilot out suddenly would imply that they had some sort of idea that the Gundams could randomly adjust their power levels in extremis without the pilot's express consent(i.e. Mika saying "Barbatos give me everything you've got"). There has been no indication of the Gundam frames going full throttle without the pilots' consent before this very moment, so it would be kind of weird to add safety locks to prevent them from going full throttle that the pilot has full control over as shown by Mika deliberately telling the Barbatos to go whole hog in Edmonton and at the end of this episode. If I had to guess I'd say the safety locks were likely added after the Calamity war but before Gjallarhorn got established enough to largely remove Gundams from the battlefield outside of the occasional space pirates. Presumably once there were no longer any MAs around which needed the Gundams operating at full capacity it became more practical to put limits on them so that they only have a slight chance of killing or crippling their pilots whenever they're used. Particularly with Barbatos and Gusion, it's quite possible they've been modified extensively by various different owners since the height of the Calamity War.
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Dec 20, 2016 03:41
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The safety locks arent the big magical system people seem to think they are, the Gundams are basically BSOD'ing to a hardware failure. The code error probably looks something like this; >Target_MA == TRUE. >Drive_Power = 100%. >AV_Interface == FAILURE TO CONNECT, INSUFFICIENT BANDWIDTH >Abort and lock for pilot safety, bandwidth error with their AV interface.
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Dec 20, 2016 04:25
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Hunt11 posted:I am going to have to question your analysis on the fights. ...I'm first just going to point out that Gaelio's Gundam is (was? Does it rebuilt as Vidar still count?) the Kimaris, the Schwalbe Graze is a commander-type suit that he only used in the first battle. By the first fight with the Kimaris, Mika has picked up plenty of experience in general, and given Gaelio fought in a relatively similar fashion regardless of suit means saying that "well, one of them had encountered the other before and thus had a better idea of their tactics" is silly. Mika had some difficulty with Gaelio's attack style even in the generic commander suit, so when he switched to a suit actually on par with Barbatos, Mika ran into significant trouble. The "raw specs actually on par" was far more significant than "had encountered him before." Second fight I already did say was arguable, but as it stands Gaelio did have the edge, again, until he ran into equipment very specifically designed and attached to counter his fighting style. I never claimed it wasn't a win, but rather that him being surprised and giving an opening due to that is hardly means he isn't a challenge. Third fight had Kimaris Trooper not even arriving until the fight was decided, so given the conditions I'd say he did succeed, as he wholly prevented Mika from getting the killing blow he REALLY wanted to get, and did it despite Mika standing right over Carta's suit at the time. Carta dying had nothing to do with his skills or suit, as he wasn't even present when fatal damage was done, but did manage to gently caress up Mika's plans when he did arrive. And the initial response was towards Kanos mentioning that no one other than Lafter, AJ Ein and McGillis were an actual challenge to Mika in S1. Given I don't actually ever recall Mika and Mcgillis fighting aside from the first battle near the beginning, claiming he was some challenging enemy pilot is dubious, though perhaps they meant Gaelio in the first place. Gaelio likely gave Mika the most difficulty of any of the pilots in S1 that did not have Alaya-Vijnana systems. And given what a massive force multiplier that is, it's an incredibly good reflection on those without it that are fighting on par with Mika.
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Dec 20, 2016 04:36
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To be honest "Gaelio gave Mika the most trouble out of any pilot in S1" is like winning the tallest hobbit award.
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Dec 20, 2016 04:39
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ImpAtom posted:To be honest "Gaelio gave Mika the most trouble out of any pilot in S1" is like winning the tallest hobbit award. That's not true. Mika would also win that award.
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Dec 20, 2016 04:44
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ImpAtom posted:To be honest "Gaelio gave Mika the most trouble out of any pilot in S1" is like winning the tallest hobbit award. This is also true. Honestly I felt nothing really giving him too much trouble was to the show's detriment.
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Dec 20, 2016 04:49
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I would say Lafter gave him the most trouble given that the fight could have gone ether way at the end. Before it was stopped.
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Dec 20, 2016 04:52
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So in a minor but of amusing news they just added Barbatos Lupus to the new G Generation game. Nano-Laminate Armor offers 50% bonus damage reduction against physical attacks but does nothing to beam weapons. Guess they didn't tell the developers about the beam thing.
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Dec 20, 2016 05:54
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It feels like they're leaning hard towards Gaelio being a major opponent for Mika right now, to the extent I can call anything. Every major pilot except him, Mika, Akhiro, and Shino just got stomped by the MA, and it's unlikely Shino or Akihiro's going to fight Mikazuki any time soon, even aside from the fact he's pretty much been confirmed as a much better pilot than either of them. Meanwhile, "Vidar" just took out most of a colony's military in just a couple minutes, and hasn't yet been clobbered by a MA. Not saying he could win. I'm just saying the show seems to be making a point of not showing him lose.
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Dec 20, 2016 07:52
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I'm not sure beating up a bunch of civilians in a gundam frame is something to brag about.
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Dec 20, 2016 10:29
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None of the other cockpit shots so far have had big scary HAL eyes in them, and every interior shot of the Vidar seems to emphasize those things being around, so I'm still banking on the Vidar being some kind of even more hosed up Warhammer Dreadnought for the Einborg and Gaelio is in there and helps out sometimes.
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Dec 20, 2016 11:47
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Psycho Landlord posted:None of the other cockpit shots so far have had big scary HAL eyes in them, and every interior shot of the Vidar seems to emphasize those things being around, so I'm still banking on the Vidar being some kind of even more hosed up Warhammer Dreadnought for the Einborg and Gaelio is in there and helps out sometimes. Yeah, I totally expect Ein's brain in a jar or the whole torso behind the Vidar's cockpit because those are most definitely camera lenses. If it was some tactical-analysis/combat gimmick, they'd have probably shown it off by now.
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Dec 20, 2016 11:50
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Tae posted:I'm not sure beating up a bunch of civilians in a gundam frame is something to brag about. From how the others were behaving, they were as tough as if not tougher than the Dawn Horizon crew. Hexa frames are consistently shown as very above-average machines used by elite mercenaries, and they were entirely equipped with them. So still only a minor speed-bump, but one you can brag about a little.
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Dec 20, 2016 12:00
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Darth Walrus posted:From how the others were behaving, they were as tough as if not tougher than the Dawn Horizon crew. Hexa frames are consistently shown as very above-average machines used by elite mercenaries, and they were entirely equipped with them. So still only a minor speed-bump, but one you can brag about a little. It's not so much something where you brag you beat them, but it's enough opposition that it's worth marking down your track time.
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Dec 20, 2016 12:23
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Perhaps I'm the one overestimating what the AV system can do  Though this-Neddy Seagoon posted:I'd wager they went with a Spartan-II project like Halo's lore, recruiting/kidnapping kids and putting them through AV surgery and pilot training to fight MA's because they couldn't use adults. -does a great job of summing up what I'm suspecting (and hope) happens, along with this- Neddy Seagoon posted:It'd also explain the aversion to cybernetics; "Try this poo poo you did to us with any other kids. We dare you." Dammit Neddy why are you so much better at expressing my thoughts than I am 
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