|
OddObserver posted:No, since they'll probably level a few more neighborhoods in Syria in retaliation. Would we honestly be able to tell the difference at this point?
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2016 20:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 00:37 |
|
|
The lorry involved in the Berlin attack was Polish. It's suspected to have been stolen.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2016 23:24
|
|
|
Apparently one of department heads of Russian Foreign Ministry now found shot dead in his Moscow apartment !? (Mind you, Russian sources, though...)
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2016 23:28
|
|
|
Young Freud posted:He's claiming the attacker was Gulenist Satan himself is a Gulenist if these people are to be believed.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2016 23:29
|
|
|
I knew that Russia's economy has been in the shitter for a while now but I hadn't really seen any stories about how this was affecting the civilian population, this paints a pretty grim picture. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/19/world/europe/russia-bath-lotion-deaths.html?_r=0 In Russia, Dozens Die After Drinking Alcohol Substitute quote:The economy, deeply dependent on oil revenues, was thrown into recession in 2015, after a collapse in oil prices, and is just now emerging tentatively into positive territory. The ensuing collapse of the ruble and Western economic sanctions over the Kremlin’s maneuvers in Crimea and Ukraine have hit living standards hard.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 00:52
|
|
|
MaxxBot posted:I knew that Russia's economy has been in the shitter for a while now but I hadn't really seen any stories about how this was affecting the civilian population, this paints a pretty grim picture. The article makes the deal look more unusual than it is when this is nothing new. Mass methanol poisonings occur from time to time when industrious dealers get creative or alcoholics think they have hit the gold vein by drinking antifreeze or aftershave. Yet this must be the first time that people die of bath oils instead of bath salts...
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 02:11
|
|
|
What made me think it was unusual is that it sounds like ordinary people were drinking this stuff, not just desperate alcoholics, because they were too poor to afford vodka. Reading the original article though the description "scented bath lotion" used in the NYT article is deceptive and really the ingredients were "ethyl alcohol, water, glycerin, and hawthorn extract." So they were just drinking what they thought was ethanol with water and some hawthorn extract, not the mental image I originally had of someone downing a bottle of moisturizer.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 03:10
|
|
|
MaxxBot posted:What made me think it was unusual is that it sounds like ordinary people were drinking this stuff, not just desperate alcoholics, because they were too poor to afford vodka.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 05:37
|
|
|
MaxxBot posted:What made me think it was unusual is that it sounds like ordinary people were drinking this stuff, not just desperate alcoholics, because they were too poor to afford vodka. Reading the original article though the description "scented bath lotion" used in the NYT article is deceptive and really the ingredients were "ethyl alcohol, water, glycerin, and hawthorn extract." So they were just drinking what they thought was ethanol with water and some hawthorn extract, not the mental image I originally had of someone downing a bottle of moisturizer. At least as of couple of years ago, in Russia there's a whole industry of "colognes", "window cleaners" and "aftershaves" that are basically just regular alcohol with some flavorings in them. Basically they just took some ethanol, put some strawberry flavoring on it, and called it a cologne. Since it's not sold as drinking alcohol, they can avoid levies, and the products can be sold in run of the mill kiosks without a liquor license. Not the classiest drink, but there certainly was a demand for such a thing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 07:40
|
|
|
So it's similar to "air fresheners" sold in smart shops, meant to be smoked like marijuana.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 12:26
|
|
|
Ukraine's ambassador to Austria is reporting 26 Ukrainian soldiers KIA and 30 WIA in the last 24 hours.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 12:28
|
|
|
Did the russians use artillery on a barrack or something?
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 18:06
|
|
|
Rincewinds posted:Did the russians use artillery on a barrack or something? Maybe they started a new offensive? Didn't they want to annex that one city at the coast for ages? Mariupol?
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 18:19
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/Conflicts/status/811190723286401024
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 18:38
|
|
|
My mid-80's grandpa needs a serious operation. Being a former senior general and diplomat he used to have a lot of pull and would have had this done at the Kiev military hospital where the best doctors (and a lot of his friends) tend to be. Unfortunately for him all the admin and senior officials at the hospital have been replaced by ones more loyal to the current government and with politically correct opinions, and there's a real "gently caress anyone with a soviet past" line now. It's all "sorry all our beds are earmarked for real soldiers wounded fighting the russian rebels" It's been made clear in a few cases over the last months he no longer has any pull with the government or military and is in fact on some sort of bad-russian list. Not even his months leading some of the first teams at Chernobyl or decades of fighting for support and care for veterans means anything now. He's sunken into quite a depression and feels like his entire life and career have been wiped away and rendered meaningless by the current government and political climate.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 18:51
|
|
|
Just so I'm clear on this, your starting point for it is deserving preferential medical treatment due to past government and military connections? And you want access to the military medical hospital's resources, during the current military state of the country? Doesn't the bed earmarking situation seem perfectly reasonable?
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 19:35
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:Just so I'm clear on this, your starting point for it is deserving preferential medical treatment due to past government and military connections? And you want access to the military medical hospital's resources, during the current military state of the country? Doesn't the bed earmarking situation seem perfectly reasonable? It's entirely political though because the beds are open for other people with more current connections. The hospital is supposed to be for all veterans, especially since his health is related to his service in Chernobyl. He spent the last decades fighting for veterans access to health care and support, working very closely with both active soldiers and very old vets. He was so effective at this they basically didn't let him retire and kept him working into his 80's when he should have retired long long ago due to his health. Now they're telling him to piss off because his connections aren't the right ones anymore.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 19:58
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:It's entirely political though because the beds are open for other people with more current connections. The hospital is supposed to be for all veterans, especially since his health is related to his service in Chernobyl. He spent the last decades fighting for veterans access to health care and support, working very closely with both active soldiers and very old vets. He was so effective at this they basically didn't let him retire and kept him working into his 80's when he should have retired long long ago due to his health. Now they're telling him to piss off because his connections aren't the right ones anymore. So, what, he can't get healthcare anywhere or is just this one hospital he really wants to go to? And isn't that kind of the danger of a system that relies on having connections to get treatment? He gets to live high on the hog for decades and then bam he has to be just another average guy. Maybe he shouldn't have just expected his connections to stay valid forever.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 20:01
|
|
|
He had the crazy idea that his 40 odd years of service as a veteran and 20 to other veterans would let him have access to a veteran's hospital, yes. And the hospital he's currently at outright told him they could try to operation but he really needs to go to the veteran's hospital since they're much more experienced with treating his conditions. They were shocked they denied him and grossed out at the politics of it all. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Dec 20, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 20:06
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:He had the crazy idea that his 40 odd years of service as a veteran and 20 to other veterans would let him have access to a veteran's hospital, yes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 20:12
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:He had the crazy idea that his 40 odd years of service as a veteran and 20 to other veterans would let him have access to a veteran's hospital, yes. Is he really being denied access to all veteran's hospitals or just this one, that he got special preferential treatment at for years (which involved excluding other veterans)? He can't handle slumming it at the second best military hospital in Kiev? Like you still haven't clarified if he's being blocked for all treatment or If he's just going to go get slightly worse treatment at a slightly less prestigious hospital. Baronjutter posted:
You could have said these sorts of things from the start, but, surely the other hospital is at least competent? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 20:13
|
|
|
A lot of it is part of the demonization of russian speakers and anyone with a soviet history being pushed in current politics, it was one of the last straws that actually got him to fully retire. For decades he fought for all veterans, from WWII vets to Chernobyl victims, to teens who got mangled in training. A vet was a vet and they were all deserving of care and treatment. This was his entire passion in his late life. Before the change in government he managed to get the last veterans affairs minister fired for being very bad at his job and most likely being corrupt as poo poo, funneling needed money away from vets. From his early life in the military he had absolutely no time for corruption, politics, or unfairness. In fact he hosed over his early career by exposing a corrupt senior officer who offered him a big promotion to take a bribe, but he was incorruptible and was sent off to Siberia and demoted as punishment. He kept at it, rooting out corruption, eliminating hazing, gambling, substance abuse and improving morale by actually treating people with respect. Did such a good job with his career-death-sentence that they eventually had to promote him, and eventually his enemies within the military went too far and were kicked out (or worse) for their rampant corruption. Quickly became a General, and then was made a military diplomat liaising between civilian governments and the soviet military of various pact countries (where he was much sought after for his reputation for fairness and disinterest in political machinations). After formally retiring he worked for the veterans organization and did so into his 80's. Once again his goal was a total a-political crusade for the fair and equal treatment of veterans, rooting out corruption, favourtism, and discrimination. He used all his connections he had built up over his career for this purpose alone, never using them to live "high on the hog." He lived like any typical veteran on a pension in a little run down apartment because he never gathered up a fortune via corruption and kickbacks like so many of his station and detested people who used their position for personal gain. In the last few years though he's seen a two tier system emerge for veterans. Veterans with a soviet or russian history are treated as 2nd class, as not "real" veterans because they served with the enemy, the evil russian oppressors. The government likes to say it's prioritizing current wounded war heroes, and obviously people wounded in active combat get priority, this isn't something anyone disagrees with. The problem is that Anton, the son of some current well connected official who spent a year in the military as an accountant, gets priority over any "soviet veteran". This was exactly the sort of favouritism and discrimination my grandpa fought against and why I find it extremely sad that he's become a victim of it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 20:42
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:In the last few years though he's seen a two tier system emerge for veterans. Veterans with a soviet or russian history are treated as 2nd class, as not "real" veterans because they served with the enemy, the evil russian oppressors. The government likes to say it's prioritizing current wounded war heroes, and obviously people wounded in active combat get priority, this isn't something anyone disagrees with. The problem is that Anton, the son of some current well connected official who spent a year in the military as an accountant, gets priority over any "soviet veteran". This was exactly the sort of favouritism and discrimination my grandpa fought against and why I find it extremely sad that he's become a victim of it. Yeah that's kind of lovely, but hey when Russia finally reconquers Ukraine your grandpa will probably get the favouritism and Anton will probably get shot, so even though that's just more corruption, at least he will get his revenge if he survives a couple years/months longer. If he still thinks corruption is bad even after it saves his life, I'll have some respect for this unnamed Soviet ex-general. If he doesn't, will this make you even more sad? Since you know, in the end he will have become what he has fought against?
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 20:59
|
|
|
I don't know how much longer he has, seems extremely depressed and checked out, given up. Rest of the family isn't doing so well either, or any of my friends or contacts in Ukraine really. The economy is poo poo, prices keep going up, and the current government is just as lovely and corrupt as any previously. For the average person, things just keep getting worse. Most people I know have gone from slightly optimistic and nationalistic to hopeless and jaded. The low level fighting seems to never end yet despite the propaganda about all the brave nationalists fighting an existential threat to the country, Kiev is carrying on like usual, seemingly sending only the minimum east. The new government is far more concerned with lining their own pockets while they can than any genuine nationalism or care for what happens in the east. And if anyone tries to call them out on it they're just shouted down as some putin-aligned troll. You're either with our rampant corruption and robbery of the country, or you're with Putin and the rebels and a traitor, no other choices. Don't like the russian invasion but think the current government are crooks and need to be tossed out? Not an option. Think of yourself a Ukrainian citizen with no love for Russia, but don't think all russian speakers should be treated as 2nd class citizens or expelled? Also not an option.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 21:26
|
|
|
And after the Russian annexation, they'll be second class citizens because they're Ukrainian. Kind of depressing. No way out for them, except by the Russian bombs soon dropping on them. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 21:45
|
|
|
And not a word of this on the telly. It's all about the Syria evacuation, the Berlin market attack, and the Russian ambassador murder, plus pointless domestic fluff. Nobody cares about Ukraine anymore.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 21:46
|
|
|
fishmech quit fishmeching a dude over his grandpa
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 21:48
|
|
|
Libluini posted:And after the Russian annexation, they'll be second class citizens because they're Ukrainian. Kind of depressing. No way out for them, except by the Russian bombs soon dropping on them. No way russians will treat all pan-slavs and republics equally. Look at how well they've kept their promises to not horribly oppress the Tatars in crimea! As well as how pensions and quality of life have gone up so much for russians in Crimea as the aid comes flowing over the new bridge, as promised.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 21:49
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:I don't know how much longer he has, seems extremely depressed and checked out, given up. Baron, you have to admit this is more or less the exact opposite tone you have taken for the past two years. I have heard similar stories, but not in this thread.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 21:52
|
|
|
Jazerus posted:fishmech quit fishmeching a dude over his grandpa
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 21:54
|
|
|
From the very beginning I've been against this idea that Ukraine needs to do some impossible ridiculous purge of all russian language and culture and influence. Even before the change in government, just when politics were really dumb and all about linguistic divides distracting from corruption, I've always said if Ukraine is to have any hope for the future they need to create a Ukrainian identity that is multi-cultural and linguistic. An identity based on some democratic political ideology and freedoms rather than "gently caress russians". Instead of making this a fight against dictatorship and the corrupt status quo that's been loving their country for generations, they've made it yet another linguistic side-show, it's a fight against Russians both foreign and domestic. The invaders and rebels are not bad because because they're a brutal foreign kleptocratic dictatorship, they're bad because they're russian. Kleptocrats are fine so long as they're Ukrainian. In the end it doesn't matter for the average citizen, the whole fight is over what language the people robbing them will speak rather than over the issue of constantly being robbed. If the west gave a poo poo they could have steered the new government in a better direction, they sort of tried with some carrots and sticks, but the west doesn't give a poo poo about this conflict anymore and europe is far too worried about muslims to try to help any nation-building in some post-soviet hell hole. Which is such a shame because the movement, the whole fight to remove the last government started not because of language politics or nato agents, but a genuine grassroots movement to break the status quo of horrific corruption. That energy was entirely co-opted by politicians into blind ethnic/linguistic nationalism as a smoke screen to let them rob and abuse the country exactly as before. Russia of course knew this would happen, they wanted Russian-speakers demonized. They spread propaganda about how the new FASCIST JUNTA was going to oppress all russian speakers before the new government even had a chance to do anything, and then new government was all too happy to oblige all russian propaganda. Poor hopeless citizens in the east are of course happy to fight against the kiev junta, because like Maidan they've been sold some false hope their fight will some how improve their lives since the status quo is so awful. But of course no matter what side "wins", the citizens all lose. And even if Ukraine some how "wins", the conflict has created so much hate within the country I don't see an optimistic way forward. If russia was to vanish off the face of the earth right now, Ukraine would still be hosed for a long time.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 22:16
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:And not a word of this on the telly. It's all about the Syria evacuation, the Berlin market attack, and the Russian ambassador murder, plus pointless domestic fluff. Yeah, turns out an entire city being destroyed and civilians blown up by the hundreds gets more air time than a few dozen soldiers.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 22:39
|
|
|
I think it is fair to say the political class in both Ukraine, the West and Russia have endeavored to gently caress over the populace of Ukraine. That said, I think the Russian strategy has been the most cynical of the three. However, the economic nightmare of what is happening in Ukraine is definitely than just due to the war, the war is part of it but the epidemic corruption in the country really never stopped but its revenue streams simply changed hands. Moreover, various tax code reforms and austerity measures have beaten the spending power of the population to a pulp, a neutral survey has repeatedly shown that the effect poverty is 50-60% with 15-20% of the population being food insecure. In addition, gas privatization has unloaded more of the costs of the population simply does not have the money to pay for increased costs. Putin certainly has a hand to play here by playing a cynical geopolitical game over pipelines, but where is everyone else while this is happening? Then you have guys like Saakashvili who comes off rightfully at this point as a complete opportunist. Odessa is notoriously corrupt for sure but he was essentially thrown the governorship and lasted barely a year before he moved on to something else. I don't blame most Ukrainians for being fatalistic at this point because I think everyone has lied and taken advantage of them, especially Russia, the IMF and their own political class. Best case scenario for most young Ukrainians is probably overstaying a visa somewhere in the EU where they will be taken advantage of like other group of undocumented workers. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Dec 20, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 22:50
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:Satan himself is a Gulenist if these people are to be believed. No, Satan himself is an elderly Turkish priest living in Pennsylvania. Edit: okay yeah technically he's a Gulenist Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Dec 20, 2016 |
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 23:11
|
|
|
I might be reading the wrong kind of subtext to Baronjutter, but I figured that his connections comment was more along the lines of: "My grandpa did a lot of good stuff and wasn't corrupt, so he expected that the people who he got to know over the years would be able to protect him from being discriminated against at the hospital he usually gets treated at. But because of political clear-outs and appointments, they're now gone and the new guys have told him to take a hike, as feared."
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 23:18
|
|
|
That figure earlier was way inflated, the ambassador has since taken the tweet down. Current confirmed figure is 7 KIA, 25 WIA.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 23:19
|
|
|
Cat Mattress posted:Nobody cares about Ukraine anymore. From the article: quote:A resident in a nearby separatist-controlled town, who asked not to be identified for personal security reasons, dismissed the idea that any separatist troops had attempted to attack and said the fighting was merely “rocket-tennis” between the two sides. Even locals don't care. Also rocket-tennis should be a game in the next Olympics.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 23:24
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 23:24
|
|
|
Jazerus posted:fishmech quit fishmeching a dude over his grandpa Uh, what's your problem dude? I was legit trying to figure out what the whole situation was because it wasn't clear.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2016 23:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 00:37 |
|
|
Baronjutter posted:From the very beginning I've been against this idea that Ukraine needs to do some impossible ridiculous purge of all russian language and culture and influence. Even before the change in government, just when politics were really dumb and all about linguistic divides distracting from corruption, I've always said if Ukraine is to have any hope for the future they need to create a Ukrainian identity that is multi-cultural and linguistic. An identity based on some democratic political ideology and freedoms rather than "gently caress russians". Instead of making this a fight against dictatorship and the corrupt status quo that's been loving their country for generations, they've made it yet another linguistic side-show, it's a fight against Russians both foreign and domestic. The invaders and rebels are not bad because because they're a brutal foreign kleptocratic dictatorship, they're bad because they're russian. Kleptocrats are fine so long as they're Ukrainian. In the end it doesn't matter for the average citizen, the whole fight is over what language the people robbing them will speak rather than over the issue of constantly being robbed. If the west gave a poo poo they could have steered the new government in a better direction, they sort of tried with some carrots and sticks, but the west doesn't give a poo poo about this conflict anymore and europe is far too worried about muslims to try to help any nation-building in some post-soviet hell hole. I'm sorry to hear this. Compared to Ukraine, ex-Yugo countries seem like heaven.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2016 00:03
|
|