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Something that just jumped into my head. We have the ability to fight with 2-handers or 1-hand and shield -- why not dual wielding?
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Dec 20, 2016 17:25
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| # ? May 13, 2024 21:37 |
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Reflection is better in the midgame, as it makes yaktaurs and centaurs kill themselves with a decent SH skill. Once you're strong enough to not worry about them switch to resistance.
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Dec 20, 2016 17:28
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Shinino Kage posted:Something that just jumped into my head. Balance reasons.
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Dec 20, 2016 17:29
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There are dual wielded daggers tho right .
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Dec 20, 2016 17:32
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euphronius posted:There are dual wielded daggers tho right . There's an artifact weapon that is two weapons but mechanically it's just a single two-hander; you can't split them up or anything. At one point I did suggest 'duelist's blades' or something similar as a 'two-handed' short blade along the lines of Gimble & Gyre, but nobody seemed to like it at the time. 
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Dec 20, 2016 17:34
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Konstantin posted:Reflection is better in the midgame, as it makes yaktaurs and centaurs kill themselves with a decent SH skill. Once you're strong enough to not worry about them switch to resistance. Does it reflect things like dragon's breath as well? Asking for swamp... Edit: Formicids dual-wielding two-handers  Edit2: Dual Shield Wielding add some kind of shield bash attack...
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Dec 20, 2016 17:35
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I always thought dual wielding was kind of a lame concept. I'd put it up there with "why can't we have power levels and go super saiyan?"
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Dec 20, 2016 17:39
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Fitzy Fitz posted:I always thought dual wielding was kind of a lame concept. I'd put it up there with "why can't we have power levels and go super saiyan?" Dual wielding is a real thing though? Though most commonly the off-hand is used as a shield replacement and not a second primary method of attack. Basically add a new type of shield- parrying daggers- that have the lowest SH bonus and give it the Longsword's riposte ability if you really wanted to do it.
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Dec 20, 2016 17:47
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Skill in transmutations should provide rmut.
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Dec 20, 2016 17:48
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Heithinn Grasida posted:[...]it's responding to something that was not my original point. In the first place, I think, or at least I hope, when people complain about flavor, they are primarily complaining about the loss of flavor for flavor's sake, not the loss of flavor in an absolute sense. Let's look at another example of flavour loss that has drawn quite some complaints: racial armour/weapons. Now I could ask what's the use of special armour for a single (dwarven/elfish/orcish) species  But cynical jokes aside, these were removed because they looked cool but added little gameplay value, and therefore actually led people to make wrong decisions. Like picking a orcish +1 sword over a bland +2 one. Does this fit better into the category of losses you talk about? For that, I have to say that while racial egos are gone, a bunch of new armour egos have been added. I claim there is no loss at all, just a shift. (Remember that each release adds *more* than gets cut.) Now you can say that the removed stuff was full of flavour whereas the new stuff is bland. I have no reply to that, I can only say that to a new player it would not feel like this. Perhaps something becomes "flavourful" if you've seen it for long enough? (Question not sarcastic.)quote:Crawl may have very good flavor itself, but people still are right to complain about the removal of things hammers and sheep. They made the game more fun to play even if they weren't strictly good design. quote:But other sacrifices have been made on the altar of good design that were more harmful. An example I've brought up repeatedly is the dragon's call / dragon form synergy that existed for a few versions. It was obscure and almost useless to the vast majority of players, but it made for something flavorful and fun that you could try for if you knew about, and if you didn't know, it really didn't hurt you at all. There was no practical reason to remove it except for an aesthetic compulsion on the part of the developers and the game is poorer for its loss. Altogether, if you phrase the accusation specifically enough, I cannot have a decent reply to: "you kill flavour for no reason, hence the game may become better, but it's less fun". I can tell you that I (and I am not alone in this) think about flavour. It's true that flavour *alone* is not (anymore?) the reason to add something, but it is always taken into account. I suggest to have a relaxed glimpse at the whole changelog (from DCSS 0.1 to trunk), and try to see how things have been lost, sometimes reinvented, and added. quote:Flavor is not the only psychological (which I mean as opposed to strictly intellectual in a challenge, or puzzle sense) factor in making a game fun. Though it might seem "low brow", most people who play RPGs want to be awesome and to do awesome things. Although in the specific case of haste, I think the intellectual aspect of more interesting design outweighs the psychological aspect of reward, casting haste was awesome. Finding a haste wand is awesome. If you cannot do those things, you cannot be quite as awesome as you could before. Let's try and find things that have been added to make your Crawl experience cooler, and your character more badass: new high level spells, such as Tornado, Glaciate, Dragon Call, Orb of Destruction! I came up with Ziggurats specifically and solely so that players can feel like they own the dungeon! The earlier portal vaults provide flavour, power and hopefully some excitement. (Some people correctly say that they're dubious because they make strong characters stronger.) Hell and Pan have been touched: layouts, sentinels, population. You may not be able to haste yourself anymore (apart from potions), but there are a bunch of evocable items that just shred at high Evo skill. quote:My personal sentiment is that the current design trend is pushing the game somewhat away from a fantastic and varied experience where you see bizarre things and do awesome poo poo to some kind of chess puzzle in the newspaper. You might feel satisfied and stimulated, but you don't feel awesome in the video game sense when you figure out that black's path to checkmate in four moves is rook to queen four. There's nothing wrong with that, we're not developing an eternal game such as Go. Regarding bizzare things. I am certain that Crawl has more of that than ever: Malign Gateway, wizlabs, fixed artefacts, Apocalypse/Grand Finale/etc. Why did I write this wall of text: if you state that, say, DCSS 0.16 was best Crawl for you, then no problems. It is clear that Crawl has gone a long way, and why should any particular player feel compelled to walk all along? (I know a number of players who did, and that in itself is amazing and heart-warming.) However, I rarely see the sentiments phrased as clearly as you did and, like I tried to indicate, I think they're understandable, but misguided. Flavour has moved, and badassness has moved, but we try to preserve these -- we play this game too, after all! dpeg fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Dec 20, 2016 |
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Dec 20, 2016 17:54
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Zore posted:Dual wielding is a real thing though? Though most commonly the off-hand is used as a shield replacement and not a second primary method of attack. Yeah, OK, daggers are fine. I was thinking like double SMGs or long swords like The Matrix or Halo or Game of Thrones.
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Dec 20, 2016 17:55
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Zore posted:Dual wielding is a real thing though? Though most commonly the off-hand is used as a shield replacement and not a second primary method of attack.
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Dec 20, 2016 17:58
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Easy to solve! Unrand shield with a dagger graphic that adds riposte to any weapon type, similar to boots of the assassin with stabs.
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Dec 20, 2016 18:03
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I remember the ankhus! And I remember confused by it as a new player too!
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Dec 20, 2016 18:39
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Gloves of the fencer already add riposte to any weapon type though!
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Dec 20, 2016 19:17
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IronicDongz posted:Gloves of the fencer already add riposte to any weapon type though! You're right! I still want gloves that cause punches to inflict inner flame. I know there's a club that does that, but I love the idea of punching something so hard that it explodes.
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Dec 20, 2016 19:28
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I definitely remember ankus but then again I'm wildly not part of the main demographic of Crawl; I've been around from the 0.3.4 days.
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Dec 20, 2016 19:49
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Sage Grimm posted:I definitely remember ankus but then again I'm wildly not part of the main demographic of Crawl; I've been around from the 0.3.4 days. What's the plural of ankus anyway? Ankuses?
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Dec 20, 2016 19:50
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ankylosaurus
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Dec 20, 2016 19:52
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Most people carefully evade that question by calling them bullhooks or elephant goads.  But the correct answer is ankuses.
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Dec 20, 2016 19:54
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IronicDongz posted:Gloves of the fencer already add riposte to any weapon type though! It bugs me that they do nothing if you already have riposte. They should enhance long blades in some way, otherwise finding them on a long blade character is like, "well gently caress."
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Dec 20, 2016 21:10
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LogicNinja posted:It bugs me that they do nothing if you already have riposte. They should enhance long blades in some way, otherwise finding them on a long blade character is like, "well gently caress." Obviously the correct answer is to remove Long Blades, since the gloves accomplish the same effect. Then remove the gloves.
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Dec 20, 2016 21:18
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Crawl has been getting better and better since I've been playing (since like .7), I'm inclined to trust the devs will continue to make it better.
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Dec 20, 2016 21:18
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LogicNinja posted:It bugs me that they do nothing if you already have riposte. They should enhance long blades in some way, otherwise finding them on a long blade character is like, "well gently caress." they double the riposte chance  I guess that's not documented, huh? i'll add a note to make it clearer.
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Dec 20, 2016 21:22
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LogicNinja posted:It bugs me that they do nothing if you already have riposte. They should enhance long blades in some way, otherwise finding them on a long blade character is like, "well gently caress." e:f,b
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Dec 20, 2016 21:29
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IronicDongz posted:they add their riposte chance to the normal riposte chance you get from wielding a long blade, so you riposte twice as often with them on 
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Dec 20, 2016 21:38
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IronicDongz posted:sounds kind of needlessly complex when you could just, idk. use a long blade. you can use a long blade+shield if you want riposte+SH Flavor. *shrug* Could make it where the 2nd weapon gets only like half strength or something, and is slower? I dunno. Or maybe it requires a separate skill to do it. So if you wanted to dual wield Maces, you had to have Maces + DW, and have DW not cross-train? Or maybe slight cross-train with shields?
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Dec 20, 2016 21:48
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taqueso posted:Crawl has been getting better and better since I've been playing (since like .7), I'm inclined to trust the devs will continue to make it better. From a technical perspective, yes. Not everything has been great. Race removals and the wand swap (not the upcoming removal) are two that stick out off the top of my head. At this point, I probably should just fork the game into my own little private branch and start changing things to put in what I want, but I only play webtiles and not having a way to play anywhere through a browser would be a deal-breaker.
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Dec 20, 2016 21:59
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I'm willing to bear with some sketchy changes here and there for a dev team that seems to have an actual long term goal in mind.
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Dec 20, 2016 22:03
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Ugly John posted:From a technical perspective, yes. Not everything has been great. Race removals and the wand swap (not the upcoming removal) are two that stick out off the top of my head. Wand swap? You mean like acid and iceblast? I liked that change a lot, because it differentiated them from spellcasting.
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Dec 20, 2016 22:07
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No version prior to 0.19 can be the best version of crawl, because 0.19 finally made swords as powerful as they are cool
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Dec 20, 2016 22:36
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tweet my meat posted:I'm willing to bear with some sketchy changes here and there for a dev team that seems to have an actual long term goal in mind. Still waiting on that change for malmutate!
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Dec 20, 2016 22:36
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Next removal they make should be worthwhile, to something I hate that is also super redundant in polearms. Halberd, glaives, bardiches, they all sound like the same weapon, I don't know which one is better just by looking at the name. Spears, tridents, halberds, demon trident, done. Also in reality Glaives are just single blade nagitas, they should probably be in staves, also they should be faster/ less damaging than halberds. From what I have read about bardiches they should probably be listed in the axes category except we already have the executions axe, and in-game they don't have nearly enough flair in the name to justify being on par with triple swords, executioner axes and giant spiked clubs. They sound like just another polearm to me.
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Dec 20, 2016 22:46
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I mean, polearms being their own category does get a bit messy when you realize a lot of polearms are basically just different kinds of weapons slapped on the end of a pole. Would this be M&F, axes, or polearms? who knows!
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Dec 20, 2016 23:08
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Halberds, glaives and bardiches all share a long (2 meterish) pole, making them thematically at least polearms. If you wanted to figure out which is more damaging with zero knowledge about the weapons look at the in game picture, as they get more powerful the actual blade on the weapon gets bigger.
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Dec 20, 2016 23:10
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halberd has like 3 different pointy bits though! on a related note, buff halberds, they're in an awkward spot where you almost never want to use them-they're like morningstars as a common weapon with 13 base damage, but instead of trading a bit of damage or delay(like a broad axe, which takes 18 skill instead of 16) for their unique ability(reaching), they become 2H. but you almost never want to use one for a long time because glaives are also 2H, not too uncommon, and better. they're purely a transition weapon whereas sometimes you do end up using a morningstar or broad axe all game
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Dec 20, 2016 23:17
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Carcer posted:Halberds, glaives and bardiches all share a long (2 meterish) pole, making them thematically at least polearms. If you wanted to figure out which is more damaging with zero knowledge about the weapons look at the in game picture, as they get more powerful the actual blade on the weapon gets bigger. From wiki on Bardiches - "While the blade was often very long for an axe (usually exceeding 2 feet (60 cm)) the shaft was one of the shortest of all polearms; rarely did it exceed 5 feet (1.5 m) in length. It relied more on the weight of its heavy blade to do the damage than a swing from a long pole. This makes the bardiche more similar to the Danish axe, in some respects, than to a true polearm." From wiki on Axes - Axes designed for warfare ranged in weight from just over 0.5 kg to 3 kg ( 1 to 6 pounds), and in length from just over 30 cm to upwards of 1.5 m (1 to 5 feet), as in the case of the Danish axe or the sparth axe. Cleaving weapons longer than 1.5 m would arguably fall into the category of polearms. So very borderline. Also "Another use of the bardiche was for execution." It kinda does look like a stereotypical executioner's axe - imagine executing someone with a halberd or glaive.
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Dec 21, 2016 00:22
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It did actually used to be called "lochaber axe" before it was changed to bardiche because it was confusing.
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Dec 21, 2016 00:24
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Haha I remember being confused about the locharbie axes. Polearms are my new favorite. The reach effect is so clutch and strategic.
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Dec 21, 2016 00:28
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| # ? May 13, 2024 21:37 |
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Speaking of polearms and axes, scythes still exist. They should be given cleave and reaching. Or at least a scythe fixedart that cleaves if you don't use reaching. e: Give it to Finisher. Cause let's be honest, the only reason scythes haven't been cut like other weapons is because Sigmund uses it and there's two fixedart scythes. Their only contribution to the game is giving Sigmund and reapers reaching, players never touch them. Darox fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 00:32
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