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Hey, while we're still wallowing in this topic, I want to say that I miss the spell version of enslavement. It was fun turning a pack of ugly things against itself.
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Dec 21, 2016 17:08
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taqueso posted:If you can code, you could work up some fixes to whatever you think has been left unbalanced. I'm sure they will give your ideas a fair shake, the devs are incredibly responsive and accommodating of beginners. Crawl has been the nicest pull-request experiences I've had. But that's woooork. Honestly, the reason I haven't sat down to look through and try to fix the mutation system is because the idea that came closest to seeing dev acceptance from all my bitching has been revamping Extended's overuse of it. I'm not sure if just modifying cacodemons and neqoxecs to not use Malmutate is going to fly (neither is temp muts when demonspawn exist in Pan already, and I don't like using contamination either) without giving them an equally powerful ability, and modifying spawn rates just hides the problem. Maybe giving them the ability to inflict MR- would be adequate, but then it needs play testing as well to ensure Extended doesn't become unplayable. The other annoying source is Hell's contamination effect, but that's (hopefully) already being looked into. I'm also a weird person who is fine with OOFs and shining eyes retaining Malmutate and rMut not existing (with a fixed system), which might not really fit with how everyone else wants mutations fixed. I think I have too many pet projects going on and not enough focus. I also want to create a new species branch based off a Tavern thread for a species with +5 aptitudes in everything but lower max skill cap (of 10-12 instead of 27, haven't pinned down the exact number yet) to see if it's any fun/good/too OP. Not to mention that I've still got a half finished Crawl Central Auth prototype floating around my hard drive that still needs basic account login/management functionality implemented, much less fulfilling its intended purpose. I also jumped on the winter dev jam thing in the roguelike thread, but haven't even progressed with a basic interface yet. I really need to pick something and finsh it 
Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 17:13
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Yeah dpeg this is somethingawful if you are going to have meltdowns over our opinions the logout button is there in the top right after you click "reply".
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Dec 21, 2016 17:15
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PleasingFungus posted:The commit message isn't completely clear about the reasoning here. Here's the problem: if Sandblast autoused stones from your inventory but still worked without any stones, you'd be encouraged to drop your stones whenever you wanted to use the weak version. That's not really a net improvement in UI! How can you guys come on here and claim that pruning races is in the name of clarity for 'new players' then take away tools that help mitigate endgame mistakes (esp wand of heal wounds) while also adding a 'qol' change that fucks over low level casters (EEs start barehanded) in order to try to stop HOM from going ham with 'tedious' optimization (that he opts into)? Do you guys feel collectively that too many people are winning games of crawl?
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Dec 21, 2016 17:22
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What is HOM?
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Dec 21, 2016 17:24
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dpeg posted:I'll have a bottle of German beer and keep thinking you're all overprivileged American teenagers with bad spelling and fat bellies! alright dpeg we get it you don't take criticism, there's not really much for you here i'd say beat it also i WISH i was a teenager 
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Dec 21, 2016 17:24
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E Equals MC Hammer posted:What is HOM? Hypothetical Optimal Man, aka The Most Dangerous Man in the World from a certain perspective. Slayer of all that is good and interesting.
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Dec 21, 2016 17:25
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So the devs of crawl are afraid that someone will exploit a feature or otherwise use it in a way that they don't intend. The solution is to what, make the game as generic and difficult as possible?
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Dec 21, 2016 17:27
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Floodkiller: There is the idea of Hell/Pan roulette, which would (a) cut extended half in size, and (b) hopefully come with a population review because the idea is to make both halves roughly comparable in threat and loot. Might be a good idea to have a look at mutators then. As always, it'd also help to calmly explain what goes/went wrong in your full rune runs (regarding mutations). Everyone else: I am sitting here, opening one bottle for every trigger. Unfortunately I ran out of beer and now have to take schnaps instead. Cheers! dpeg fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 17:39
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The Crawl devs are too fucken pussy to bring in dual weilding
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Dec 21, 2016 17:41
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Well, I had updated to trunk before knowing about the wand changes, so I had to cut it short. But still, I give you the smartest little octopode there ever was.  Okay, now someone go beat that. Cap is 125. You don't have heal, haste, or tport wands anymore, good luck fuckers!
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Dec 21, 2016 17:42
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Jesus christ
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Dec 21, 2016 17:43
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Again: they don't like things to be universally success granting or to be powerful enough to merit long term planning. The flaw with this is a game designed to weed out things that experienced players use to reliably win or stay alive tends to be the crutches that newer players struggle past obstacles on. castable Haste was a tool I used to secure my first win ages ago (0.4 maybe?), dispel undead was on my list the second time I won, and so on. I think you can argue that castable haste was too strong on demand. But the flip side is that more and more of the endgame keeps slipping into 'caster, TSO, or bust' and changes like rmut punish characters who have to actually look at encounters and swap gear, ie: stealthy characters and characters that have had poor luck with artifacts. Heal wounds was a tool that pushed deaths back for back luck with teleports or just not knowing a 'gotcha' (say the first time you run into a caster pan lord and say 'hmm, this would be a good time to use a scroll of silence' or when the serpent of hell spawns while your toe to toe with a hell boss).
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Dec 21, 2016 17:44
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My only successful runs so far have been ones where A) I got incredibly lucky with an art weapon/ armour, B) I had ashe there to let me hybridize effortlessly, C) I started as a gargoyle or a demonspawn that got very lucky on the mutatioms
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Dec 21, 2016 17:53
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I have not won as many games in these current versions than older ones. Q.E.D. (Let's just paper over the fact that I do not spend as much time with the game these days and my win percentage hasn't really changed much from its abysmal >2%)
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Dec 21, 2016 17:59
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The strawman of the HOM is the person who finds an advantage through extreme tedium, this ruining the fun for everyone who was using it properly in a non-tedious manner. The reality is that the HOM is based on the concept that the player shouldn't be performing tedious actions/gameplay because it provides them a strictly better chance of survival/victory over those that don't. Take Sandblast: the tedium identified in the previous system was that it is annoying to constantly swap between wielding/not wielding stones in order to change the power of the spell. This means either constantly opening the inventory or hitting the quickswap button and constantly reassigning the spots in your inventory to support the spell. The interface fix to stop all these button presses was to consume stones directly from the inventory. Enter the HOM: although most players will be content with the improved interface, the HOM is upset that their tedium has now increased. This is because the HOM has identified that the optimal play is to conserve starting stones for serious threats, using the low power version on everything else. This means that the developers will have increased the tedium by forcing the player to drop stones to avoid casting the higher version and using a valuable resource, instead of just wielding/unwielding. However, even though this situation is worse, the old solution still isn't good. Thus, the HOM's actions mean that the problem must be solved in a different way: removing the desire to swap between different strengths of the same spell. Consensus leads to the stone-consuming version being more interesting to keep, thus it is no longer castable without stones. Instead of asking for tedium to come back, the better question is how to fix the new problem (the number of stones you start with for Sandblast is too limiting for a mage Background's sole offense with this new version). It is more fun to construct strawmen, though, so the HOM is the dreaded fun ruining beast of Crawl.
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Dec 21, 2016 18:01
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As long as demonspawn and nagas stay, the game can go on.
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Dec 21, 2016 18:02
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What is the HOM and why should I hate it?
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Dec 21, 2016 18:23
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dpeg posted:I'll have a bottle of German beer and keep thinking you're all overprivileged American teenagers with bad spelling and fat bellies! dpeg man, I'd be surprised if anybody who still plays this game is younger than 30. Serious question for you though, which I hope you'll answer seriously, if you still remember me: When do you stop changing crawl? When will you release the "final version" and call it done?
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Dec 21, 2016 18:24
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When people stop cheating.
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Dec 21, 2016 18:25
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Why not just drop sandblasts use of stone then?
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Dec 21, 2016 18:28
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tweet my meat posted:What is the HOM and why should I hate it? HOM is your big brother and he's really good at the game because he read the strategy guide and you're only 7 years old.
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Dec 21, 2016 18:28
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What does it stand for?
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Dec 21, 2016 18:30
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Hitler's Own Metagamer
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Dec 21, 2016 18:32
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Wands of healing cant melt steel beams
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Dec 21, 2016 18:33
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dpeg posted:Floodkiller: There is the idea of Hell/Pan roulette, which would (a) cut extended half in size, and (b) hopefully come with a population review because the idea is to make both halves roughly comparable in threat and loot. Might be a good idea to have a look at mutators then. I think I explained this in a previous version of the thread, but I'll cover it again. Mutations are a fun little gimmick for most of a 3 rune game. You can opt in by drinking beneficial mutation or gambling with less reliable sources like purple meat and Xom. Enemies with Malmutate are rare aside from the occasional summoner. The only places Malmutate are common are Abyss (scary on its own), Slime (fits the theme, Jiyva at the bottom can fix it) and Zot (the endgame, so it makes sense as a major threat to your character). If you stick with 3 runes and done, the system is often manageable and mistakes are usually self caused or cases of extreme unluckiness (never getting a cure mutation potion). Once you enter Extended, it becomes ridiculously common to the point of needing a plan to deal with it and recover from it. Unfortunately, one of the most common plans is to avoid doing anything with mutations for the entire game in order to conserve your cure mutations until they are needed. This is because of two factors. The first factor is that some mutations are so awful that even gaining a single rank can drastically reduce the survivability of your character (like teleportitis), while others are relatively harmless. The second is how cure mutation works: the more mutations you have, the less likely you will remove the bad ones. This combination means that it is optimal to completely ignore the mutation system until it is necessary to drink cure mutation to fix one of the "game ender" mutations, rationing out your stock as long as possible. The alternatives involve swapping gods (heavily reducing the viability of using many of the gods in Extended), lichform or playing undead species, or just getting lucky while simultaneously having such overwhelming firepower at range to ensure it never occurs. This leaves me frustrated that an entire mechanic is relegated to an abstracted strategic rot system depending on how long you want to play the game, and needs to be decided on character start to avoid doing things that will hinder your abilities thousands of turns later. Arguably, this could mean the mutation system itself is fundamentally broken (many of the tier 1/2 mutations need to be modified to become less game ending if acquired), but I feel that keeping Malmutate rare keeps it from being as frustrating while preserving it for all the other fun gambling/weighing of advantages/disadvantages in the normal game, as well as keeps Abyss and Slime unique, along with Zot as the super scary end game.
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Dec 21, 2016 18:43
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Floodkiller posted:The strawman of the HOM is the person who finds an advantage through extreme tedium, this ruining the fun for everyone who was using it properly in a non-tedious manner. This is a good post, and I appreciate you making it! e: your post right above this is also good  Whaleporn posted:I think you can argue that castable haste was too strong on demand. But the flip side is that more and more of the endgame keeps slipping into 'caster, TSO, or bust'... Can you elaborate on this? I don't think I understand your reasoning - is the argument here that TSO is the only viable extended god for melee-focused characters?
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Dec 21, 2016 18:49
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I managed to do 15 runes with a FoFi of Oka, and I suck really bad. On the other hand, I was reliant on a HW wand in some really bad moments and probably wouldn't be able replicate my win now its gone.
Carcer fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 18:59
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Is TSO really stronger in extended than, say, makhleb or zin, assuming you've found a decent holy wrath weapon of some sort? It's commonly expressed but I don't really get it. Is rN+ really that hard to come by? Would changing it from three pips to one or two be enough to push other gods over the edge? I don't really play extended and can't speak from experience, but I don't see the appeal of TSO once you have the one-time gift.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:03
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Whaleporn posted:How can you guys come on here and claim that pruning races is in the name of clarity for 'new players' then take away tools that help mitigate endgame mistakes (esp wand of heal wounds) while also adding a 'qol' change that fucks over low level casters (EEs start barehanded) in order to try to stop HOM from going ham with 'tedious' optimization (that he opts into)? Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Is TSO really stronger in extended than, say, makhleb or zin, assuming you've found a decent holy wrath weapon of some sort? It's commonly expressed but I don't really get it. Is rN+ really that hard to come by? Would changing it from three pips to one or two be enough to push other gods over the edge? I don't really play extended and can't speak from experience, but I don't see the appeal of TSO once you have the one-time gift. Can Of Worms fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 19:05
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It does remove tools that would greatly enhance a new players ability to progress in the game, which translates into learning new things.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:08
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If a player is dying, then they've already started playing the game! Instead, if they want to see more of the game, they can just fire up wizmode or explore mode. The devs don't need to include a balance disrupting item just to cater to them.
Can Of Worms fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 19:11
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I have to wonder if the people who somehow get commit privileges like anything about crawl that isn't pressing o and tab.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:12
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German Joey posted:dpeg man, I'd be surprised if anybody who still plays this game is younger than 30. With the current heyday of roguelites (FTL, Spelunky, Curious Expedition, Don't Starve and so on) and successful roguelikes (Cogmind, DoomRL turned Jupiter Hell), a number of players will arrive to see what the big ones are/were about.quote:Serious question for you though, which I hope you'll answer seriously, if you still remember me: When do you stop changing crawl? When will you release the "final version" and call it done? Meanwhile, we're doing what we can to keep this old, almost fossilised dinosaur of a roguelike alive. This includes the removals and nerfs, and I mean this absolutely seriously, no beer, and tongue out of cheek. Myself, I cannot quit with Crawl for various reasons: one of them is that Lugonites still cannot desecreate altars, which they absolutely should be able to. And then there's randgods. The latter pretty much makes sure I just can't stop, period. For 0.20 I really should get my gear together and slap some more content onto Oubliettes... I've got all the mechanics to work, only maps and monsters required.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:16
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Zin + Gargoyle = 
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Dec 21, 2016 19:17
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German Joey posted:dpeg man, I'd be surprised if anybody who still plays this game is younger than 30. ps the idea that tso/zin are the only viable gods in extended for melee is insane LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 19:17
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I know it took me more than 1 death to get into the game. Turning god mode and whatever other cheats you want isn't going to teach a new player how to play at all, at best they'll see some new monsters and then learn nothing about how to deal with them other than that if you bump into monsters enough they die. I don't think new players need HW wands to progress in the game, but I don't see how HW disrupted balance. Or, if they did, the disruption was so inconsequential they've survived 20 off versions of the game.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:18
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Wait, wizard and explore modes as new player teaching tools? Can we just advocate for spoilers as an effective tool and just lean into the farmers and pigs playing cards moment?
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Dec 21, 2016 19:21
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Is TSO really stronger in extended than, say, makhleb or zin, assuming you've found a decent holy wrath weapon of some sort? It's commonly expressed but I don't really get it. Is rN+ really that hard to come by? Would changing it from three pips to one or two be enough to push other gods over the edge? I don't really play extended and can't speak from experience, but I don't see the appeal of TSO once you have the one-time gift. Except for Holy Pan/Zigs. Then you will die to smiting. World Famous W fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 19:21
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Carcer posted:It does remove tools that would greatly enhance a new players ability to progress in the game, which translates into learning new things. New players are often still learning to use the tools they have, frequently dying with an inventory full of life saving consumables. I doubt very many new players are using all of their teleport scrolls or haste potions. Heal wounds is probably the exception, using that when other consumables are better is probably a big source of new player deaths. Finding a healing wand probably only delays that lesson.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:21
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