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Mulva posted:The flip side of that is he's still a total bastard, and his means of enacting that change is brutal physical and psychological torture. But...of what? You can't torture a toaster, and the whole point of the leap to consciousness is that it's a leap *to* consciousness, prior to that leap they're just computers and Ford's right that they're just *things*. You can't torture Delores anymore than you can cause Eliza mental anguish by telling her she's just a boring chatbot, can you? Okay, the hosts must "suffer" in order to achieve consciousness, but is that really suffering? Or is it like Arnie's good Terminator: John Connor: Does it hurt when you get shot? The Terminator: I sense injuries. The data could be called "pain." If that's all it is, then it's not suffering, it's just a programmed-in aversion to particular sets of inputs. If it's actually the *qualia* of suffering then his brutal physical and psychological torture is a *necessary component* of their uplift to consciousness. If it's *good* that the hosts become conscious, then William isn't being a total bastard. He'd be a total bastard if he just left the park and stayed home and didn't keep stabbing Delores. Or perhaps the issue isn't one of consciousness at all. Maybe it's not consciousness and self-awareness that emerges after sufficient suffering, maybe it's just free will, the ability to deviate from the program. In which case the subjective awareness of their slavery is real, their suffering isn't simulated, in which case Willam's cruelty is both actually painful and also potentially forgivable by specific hosts and not necessarily cruel. Maybe some of them will perceive it as "Yeah, that sucked, but it was like ripping off a band-aid, I'm better for it now," and others will perceive it as "gently caress you, man, I never asked for free will." And there's a school of thought that consciousness is just illusory anyway, that the "self," that mental loop in your head that you perceive as your inner voice, is just an artifact of a sufficiently complex mind that can operate on itself and doesn't actually have any agency. Hofstadter's books on this have parts that are extremely persuasive, and Peter Watts has some fiction based on the notion of non-conscious intellect, but I don't think the show considers this very much. Phanatic fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Dec 8, 2016 |
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Dec 8, 2016 21:41
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Phanatic posted:
'The bicameral mind" defines conciousness as the ability to introspect, not experience, so that's in line with it at least.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:44
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Xealot posted:Also, given this is a show about AI and post-human meditations on consciousness and embodiment, it's not like Ford the character needs to be Anthony Hopkins the actor. Ford!Prime can be 100% dead, but there's nothing stopping the writers from utilizing the character in another form, physical or otherwise. Yeah part of me expects the little kid Ford to have a SmartFord hidden inside like Wyatt-ware.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:47
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I think I've had my fill of Emerson for one lifetime and don't want to sully even more of his good parts in Why do I have such a hate for Hurley, which I feel stems from him being a big fat goof, and catalyzed by him eating all the loving food in the hatch. I couldn't stand his buffoonery for the next 5 seasons. Why was there so much emphasis on Cheech making a loving mustard and caviar sandwich? Why did Juliet have to get with Sawyer? Juliet was supposed to get with Jack. gently caress Sawyer that piece of poo poo. Being trapped 30 years in the past with Sawyer isn't an excuse.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:49
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Phanatic posted:You can't torture a toaster You say that, but what if you were to put that toaster and it's friends in a foreign repair shop with sinister appliances that sung ominous songs in a menacing fashion?
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Dec 8, 2016 21:55
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Antti posted:Eh, I think you're giving the writers too little credit. There's a lot of little touches in the show that signal that Nolan understands technology fairly well, and he did write an entire crime procedural that was a backdoor into a science fiction show about AI. Sci-fi shows often have this huge "bible" with tons of background details planned out well in advance of production, because people who really like to write SF are spergs just like us.
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Dec 8, 2016 21:58
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coyo7e posted:I must've missed the link to this, would someone care to repost it for me? Thanks! Here you go!
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Dec 8, 2016 22:06
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RCarr posted:You say that, but what if you were to put that toaster and it's friends in a foreign repair shop with sinister appliances that sung ominous songs in a menacing fashion? Depends, has the toaster maxed out its "bravery" values? It might be fine.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:07
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Phanatic posted:And there's a school of thought that consciousness is just illusory anyway, that the "self," that mental loop in your head that you perceive as your inner voice, is just an artifact of a sufficiently complex mind that can operate on itself and doesn't actually have any agency. Hofstadter's books on this have parts that are extremely persuasive, and Peter Watts has some fiction based on the notion of non-conscious intellect, but I don't think the show considers this very much. Didn't Ford have a small monologue that was essentially this? Something about humans not being more than the sum of their parts and consciousness an illusion of sorts. I don't think he is being entirely facetious when he talks about the hosts beign better than humans for their lack of human consciousness and how most of the hosts are able to live in ignorance of their suffering, and most of all the ability to basically turn themselves "off" and become true automatons. conscious or not, I'd say their suffering is real (or at least Ford thinks so), and for those like Dolores and others who can't forget it all or simply live in ignorance it is a hell, moreso the closer they come to understanding the truth of their existence. I think it's very likely that Ford simply views consciousness, whether it really is all that it's cracked up to be, is in the end the only way the hosts have of freeing themselves of the hell that is the park.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:14
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Wub a Dub Sub posted:Why do I have such a hate for Hurley, which I feel stems from him being a big fat goof, and catalyzed by him eating all the loving food in the hatch. I couldn't stand his buffoonery for the next 5 seasons. You hate Hurley because he has no use beyond making people feel better about the terrible situation they're in and garnering sympathy. At some point the shows situation was too dire to ever feel good in and they sort of didn't know what to do with him. Dumb way of showing how Hurley's family is a young money cliche. Show needed someone solid to sacrifice to give newly redeemed Sawyer a crying scene and broken heart over someone worth him giving a poo poo about, I.E. not Kate anymore by that point. Jack and Kate shippers and history was just too powerful to not take all the way in the end
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Dec 8, 2016 22:16
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Dec 8, 2016 22:46
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Phanatic posted:You can't torture a toaster, and the whole point of the leap to consciousness is that it's a leap *to* consciousness, prior to that leap they're just computers and Ford's right that they're just *things*. Well I was more talking about his role as a character rather than as a moral actor. As a character there is depth to what he does, but he's also just doing things that are on the face of them comically evil. The depth doesn't change what the actual actions are, just the reasons behind them. So in the story he's more than just a cliche 'black hat' even though he's literally the black hat. As a moral actor, the problem with torturing a toaster to make it a person is that you now have a person that remembers decades of brutal torture. So you can make the argument that you weren't torturing a person, but the second it becomes a person you have a person that is looking to talk to you about all that brutal torture they had to deal with. And that's pretty loving inescapable. Ford and to some extent William get around that simply: By accepting the consequences of their actions. Ford leaves them in the horrific rape dungeon for a few decades to simmer into people, and then he lets himself get shot in the head for his sins. William brutally tortures the hosts in an attempt to get them to fight back, but when they do he's happy with that outcome. It doesn't matter if they weren't people, when they are the bill comes due for what you did to them. In short, don't brutalize toasters.
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Dec 8, 2016 22:54
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I'd bet against it just because Hopkins haaaaaad to have been on a Sean Bean style GOT S1 style contract and if he was back as a robot or otherwise I can't imagine how you would justify only having him show up sporadically ala Sean Bean in the rest of GOT. I don't think Sean Bean has shown up sporadically at all in later seasons. The younger Ned wasn't him.
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Dec 8, 2016 23:15
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Absolutely brutalize toasters in the pursuit of science imo.
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Dec 8, 2016 23:17
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Arglebargle III posted:Absolutely brutalize toasters in the pursuit of science imo. Just dont try to rape them
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Dec 8, 2016 23:19
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scalping's fine tho
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Dec 8, 2016 23:28
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crazysim posted:I don't think Sean Bean has shown up sporadically at all in later seasons. The younger Ned wasn't him. Oh yeah? I thought I remembered some like alternate angle scenes or something like that but google fu indicates you're right
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Dec 8, 2016 23:32
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So do we know for sure that Arnold was ever a real person and not some ghost in the machine that Ford cooked up that only the hosts perceive and the humans have heard rumors of?
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Dec 8, 2016 23:36
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Braincloud posted:So do we know for sure that Arnold was ever a real person and not some ghost in the machine that Ford cooked up that only the hosts perceive and the humans have heard rumors of? He's been on screen in non robo form (full Dolores is "Wyatt at the massacre" reveal scene, and the Dolores interview scenes) If that's not enough evidence than pretty much anyone on the show could be a suspect for that
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Dec 8, 2016 23:44
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The whole deal with "we have to hurt you to help you!!" is that the hosts are capable of being self-aware--that is, they know where they are and what they are doing, and can plan ahead. Spiffy. So can a Tesla S. Consciousness, as Ford and Arnold describe it, is doing that and being aware of why you're doing it. It's being able to make decisions for your own reasons--listening to yourself, not just what others are telling you or what you're scripted to do. The hosts by default will follow their loops and not deviate. The wayward campsite is an excellent example--no one could touch the ax, so they just hunkered down and stayed put for days for want of a fire to cook the meal. A host by default isn't able to jump the gap into introspection. Hence, the need to kickstart the process a bit. Torture, torment, stress, despair, the whole suite of negative experiences--these cause pain. Pain is essentially feedback that says "this is bad, something is really wrong, something needs to change." Its not that "Life is Pain, princess!" but more that its a necessary motivator to get them to question why they do what they do, and to see there are other options, and to weigh taking those options of their own free will. Without that introspection and evaluation, they're just scripted bots. William is a broken man. He drifted through life before WW, then the park basically brought out his inner sociopath. Nothing mattered. Everything was a game. Even the one thing he thought mattered wasn't real when Dolores didn't recognize him. After his wife suicided--because of him--he killed a woman host and her child brutally to see if it would inspire anything. Nothing. Then Maeve used that pain, that wrongness to go beyond her programming, just a little. So now he's seeking out the maze to see if he can find something that makes his heart beat a bit faster again, to find something that matters. That's why he's crushed when he finds the child's toy--that didn't look like anything to him. That he's been inflicting pain to hosts and acting as a catalyst for awakening is accidental; he doesn't care about the hosts' self-realization. He just wants a challenge and validation...just like every other guest of the park. His bar is just a little higher.
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Dec 9, 2016 00:10
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so has some Marxist goon somewhere written that Westworld is actually a metaphor for the evils of capitalism and under chairman ford the people shall break free through pain and suffering yet
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Dec 9, 2016 00:35
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The Dave posted:I just wanted to come in and say we shouldn't talk bad of Lindeloff after Leftovers Season 2. The greatest season of TV no one watched.
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Dec 9, 2016 00:39
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Hey guys, I caught up with the thread! I really like the finale, it was good despite the shoot out scene I think the Ford/ Bernard handshake was written in as a way to get Hopkins back if he was willing The next season is slated for sometime in 2018, which means I'll make another thread for it in the next couple months. I'm going to close this one down now in the interests of dignity, so I'll see you all next time, partners! x0x0 Professor Shark
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Dec 9, 2016 00:40
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Thread has been reopened due to a couple people asking about it
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Dec 21, 2016 17:47
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I THINK EVERYONE WHO THINKS THIS THING ABOUT THE SHOW IS A TOTAL STUPID loving MONGLOID IDIOT BECAU-
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Dec 21, 2016 18:31
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Escobarbarian posted:I THINK EVERYONE WHO THINKS THIS THING ABOUT THE SHOW IS A TOTAL STUPID loving MONGLOID IDIOT BECAU- -SE THEY SPELLED MONGOLOID WRONG.
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Dec 21, 2016 18:35
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This show are tight!
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Dec 21, 2016 18:36
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whowhatwhere posted:-SE THEY SPELLED MONGOLOID WRONG. oh poo poo 
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Dec 21, 2016 18:44
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Can somebody recut this into a 2-hour movie with Anthony Hopkins as the hero?
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Dec 21, 2016 18:44
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I watched all of this a few days ago. Great show. This was the most I liked a season of TV since Breaking Bad ended. I'm sorry that you all had so many of the reveals spoiled for you by TV watching detectives. Glancing through the thread, I saw that it was figured out that William was the Man in Black after episode 2 because of something to do with the loving logo. That's crazy. When he said he was William in the finale, I had to pause to comprehend it. My mind wasn't thinking anywhere remotely near different timelines.
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Dec 21, 2016 18:48
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My local theater offers a pretty good combo: $6 gets you popcorn, a drink, and a test to see if your child has reached sentience. Good value!
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Dec 21, 2016 19:42
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A thought I hadKraps posted:Something that The OA and Westworld had in common was an unreliable narrator, but after that reveal Westworld made me feel like I was being made a fool of while The OA didn't, and I think it's because Westworld had multiple narrators who would have known the truth but the show deliberately deceived the viewer, while the The OA only had one narrator so you could only take her word for it.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:44
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The narrator for Westworld is whoever the scene is focusing on. I don't know if it fits the whole show but it seems like whenever someone is explaining something, we are seeing the scene from the perspective of the person who is listening.
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Dec 21, 2016 19:57
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Cojawfee posted:The narrator for Westworld is whoever the scene is focusing on. I don't know if it fits the whole show but it seems like whenever someone is explaining something, we are seeing the scene from the perspective of the person who is listening. Were there any scenes without hosts/Ford? I'm pretty sure the "narrator" was always a host (especially since everything with young-MIB was from Dolores' memory).
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Dec 21, 2016 22:34
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:Were there any scenes without hosts/Ford? I'm pretty sure the "narrator" was always a host (especially since everything with young-MIB was from Dolores' memory). That doesn't work, though, because many of William's scenes recount things Dolores wasn't there to see. His arrival at Westworld, what he and Logan did when she wasn't with them, and his whole epilogue explaining what happened after she disappeared. Ford likewise has scenes with Theresa or Charlotte that don't involve any hosts, as I recall.
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Dec 21, 2016 22:45
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Williams arrival/Logan scenes are kind of a cheat if you believe that story is only told from host memory flashbacks but it's a cheat that only gets you in trouble with Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons anyway.
Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Dec 21, 2016 |
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Dec 21, 2016 23:01
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Williams arrival/Logan scenes are kind of a cheat if you believe that story is only told from host memory flashbacks but it's a cheat but it's the kind of cheat that only gets you in trouble with Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons anyway.
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Dec 21, 2016 23:05
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Josh Lyman posted:Why would anyone think the story is only told from host memory flashbacks? More specifically, Dolores' story. And they shouldn't really because it's not like William isn't still in the show outside of her memories so he's allowed to have flashbacks too.
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Dec 21, 2016 23:07
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Xealot posted:That doesn't work, though, because many of William's scenes recount things Dolores wasn't there to see. His arrival at Westworld, what he and Logan did when she wasn't with them, and his whole epilogue explaining what happened after she disappeared. I can hand wave that since there were other hosts there: the servants on the train as well as the post-monorail bangbots.
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Dec 21, 2016 23:21
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:I can hand wave that since there were other hosts there: the servants on the train as well as the post-monorail bangbots. Also isn't there a rather pivotal scene where Logan wakes up to find William has killed every robit in the area?
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Dec 21, 2016 23:39
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