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Yeah my experience with mummy was that you're playing that dangerous early game for a much longer period of time because you're a lovely mummy, but still I got a MuFi win on my belt (with Xomscumming AND Gozag, but eh, I was curious if that would work)
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Dec 22, 2016 08:22
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IronicDongz posted:a day ago or so someone on tavern was talking about how losing these makes mummies awful, and said "Now mummies have only two gods viable on 15 rune games; Gozag and Nemelex." What, did they forget Ru? Nice win!
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Dec 22, 2016 08:30
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Its obviously not impossible to win without a wand of heal wounds but pretending it doesn't change much is silly. Also I don't get why people are acting like its impossible to get heal wounds wands when if you prioritized wands with acquirement scrolls you would often get them. Mummies are absolutely a case where I'd use every acquirement scroll on wands ASAP because having a source of heal wounds simply makes the game much safer. I guess I can't argue with it being a "crutch" but that can apply to a lot of stuff. If everyone was expected to play 100% optimally constantly then you'd never need a source of healing past the early game on any character. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Dec 22, 2016 |
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Dec 22, 2016 08:50
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True enough, Internet Kraken. Putting aside some assumptions of my own, any ideas if there are any planned changes related to the the whole wand changes other than consumable spawn rate and changes to those who can't quaff potions? I.E. Any new wands (or rebalancing the power of remaining ones) or gadgets incoming to fill the void? Or are they just getting pulled and balanced around the removal? Since I'm actually back in the game and not feeling burnt out anymore (1000+ ogres and failed tournaments will do that), I suppose I might get back onto the mailing list or at least read the development plan.
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Dec 22, 2016 09:22
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Not to add fuel to the version war, but, 0.12.2 guy chiming in with a 0.19.1 trip report:code:This was character #12, including 4 Human Wanderers (one of them I accidentally blew up with an immolation scroll) and a SpEn I returned to the surface with because I picked the wrong combo. After I stopped messing around with silly combos and decided to go seriously for the Orb (or at least as seriously as you can with Qazlal) it took 3 characters. The first died in 44 seconds to a goblin with a dagger of venom. The second I got killed lazily fighting through Vaults:5 because I was bored and I felt like even if this one died, I could just ascend the next one. There's some cool stuff in this version but I think I'll stick to 0.12.2 unless I want to play a race/religion that came out afterward. I'm sure the changes were less noticeable over time but compared, this version seems more simplistic and less realistic/immersive. If my winning run was in 0.12.2 I would have straight up died twice after getting Abyssed two separate times in Zot, except both times I was able to just find a nice corner and fight it out. A lot of the terror, uncertainty, and strangeness of the Abyss is lost when turtling is a valid strategy. I also don't really feel like it's a challenge, or like I'm actually in the dungeon outsmarting its obstacles, when I can walk around carrying 68 tomahawks of returning and giant stacks of every useful potion I've ever come across. Weight limits and item destruction force you to make meaningful choices about what you choose to carry around, whereas now if you're gonna carry one of something you may as well carry every single one you have. I should point out that the seeming redundancy of teleportation, hasting, and heal wounds wands is the direct result of those removals - in 0.12.2 I'm excited to find a wand of teleportation because scrolls can be destroyed, and hasting/heal wounds wands replace heavy stacks of rare potions that can also be destroyed. The streamlining of identification, especially for scrolls and wands, also takes a lot of flavor out of the early game. I think I'll try to ascend a Sludge Elf Transmuter next, see if I can do it in less than 50 attempts. Too bad Evaporate got removed recently. e: v but I like nausea. VROOM VROOM fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Dec 22, 2016 |
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Dec 22, 2016 09:29
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I think you should at least try 0.13 for no nausea, gargoyles, and a bunch of other stuff.
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Dec 22, 2016 10:11
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Item destruction sucked and I'm glad it's gone. Hell, I'm glad jellies can't eat items anymore. Creating a stash in lair and dropping everything because I saw an ice beast was tedious.
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Dec 22, 2016 10:25
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I'm one of those weirdos that actually enjoyed item destruction massively and thinks crawl is lesser of a game without it. But then I also love Sil, which apparently is equivalent to drawing a line in the sand when it comes to certain crawn devs ;p I really do wonder what type of game crawl would have been if Henzell hadn't abandoned it; his vision was really driving and prolific, and I see a lot of his experimental gameplay ideas lambasted, but things like 'victory dancing' where revised in later games (eg Garden of Coloured Lights) to amazing effect. Regarding dpeg, his opinions here are to be valued, not everyone is trawling through (or even party-to) the private dev logs for trunk. The backlash seems most ppl idolizing him as all crawl devs, since forever, in single form and lashing out at it. It's nice when other RLs are able to have all discussion sit in a single forum (Sil) with devs, old hands, and newbies all chewing the fat. Don't chase him away, please and thank you.
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Dec 22, 2016 12:35
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Serephina posted:Regarding dpeg, his opinions here are to be valued, not everyone is trawling through (or even party-to) the private dev logs for trunk. I totally agree, and I'd like to suggest people back off just a tad. dpeg is not the type to take offense but it's still unseemly. Let me change the subject by pointing out that even though PF hates ranged Crypt 3 clearly disapproves of my skill choices thus far and would REALLY like for me to give it a try: 
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Dec 22, 2016 12:49
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LordSloth posted:any ideas if there are any planned changes related to the the whole wand changes other than consumable spawn rate and changes to those who can't quaff potions? I.E. Any new wands (or rebalancing the power of remaining ones) or gadgets incoming to fill the void? Or are they just getting pulled and balanced around the removal? This is a digest of several hours of ##crawl-dev discussion. As you can see, some of the items have been addressed. I think the rods->wands change has a good chance to make it, too. edit: I never use the web interface for c-r-d because I get and save the emails. The whole thing looks very 90s, no question about it. Thank god it's the last bit connecting us to SauceForge. dpeg fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Dec 22, 2016 |
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Dec 22, 2016 13:16
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define xomscumming
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Dec 22, 2016 13:22
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IronicDongz posted:MuFi^Oka 15 rune I am honestly more concerned about losing the wand of hasting for mummies over heal wounds. You had Oka, which compensates for this on the melee side. I saw Finesse was used 35 times at 25-27; when did you feel it was necessary for surviving the encounter over just spending excess piety on a reasonable threat? Again, I feel these wand changes are good (except Mennas and Ereshkigal should probably be looked at for being sources of silence faster than the player with the lack of wand teleport), because their existence just meant you had an extremely high stock of those resources the moment you found the wands thanks to recharging. I think the mummy outcries are more of the same of mummies being complete trash and continuing to spiral further due to quality of life changes and reasonable nerfs removing their advantages and crutches as collateral while leaving their disadvantages the same. They should probably just be renamed to Refuse or something appropriate to indicate that it is a joke species.
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Dec 22, 2016 13:56
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Mennas's silence is at least temporary, so you can get a tele scroll in when it wears off if that's seriously your only option. Silent spectres' perma-silence has only ever been a problem for me in zigs.
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Dec 22, 2016 15:27
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E Equals MC Hammer posted:define xomscumming Choose CK/worship Xom, find a safe place like Temple or a portal vault where nothing OOD can spawn (or just do it on each dungeon floor on the way down and leave when you spot something bad), hold 5 until Xom gives you enough gifts, optionally abandon for another god. If you get a good attack rod, you can take out the OOD spawns for a giant boost in early XP One of the few remaining niches of being unable to starve, but Vampire can do it better and also has less of a desire to do it in the first place. code:
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Dec 22, 2016 15:35
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Fitzy Fitz posted:Mennas's silence is at least temporary, so you can get a tele scroll in when it wears off if that's seriously your only option. Silent spectres' perma-silence has only ever been a problem for me in zigs. They're really dangerous if they show up with tormentors. For a melee guy that combo isn't a huge deal as long as you have a wand of digging/disintegration to make a murderhole but for a caster that could easily spell death.
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Dec 22, 2016 15:46
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Remove wands of digging and disintegration.
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Dec 22, 2016 15:47
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Fitzy Fitz posted:Remove wands of digging and disintegration. You jest, but one or both are probably next on the chopping block.
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Dec 22, 2016 15:50
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omg I knew that -tele bardiche would kill me, but not for this reason. I tried to blink with it still equipped. It didn't let me blink obviously, but my next key press was under the assumption that I would have blinked. There wasn't a "force more message" prompt or whatever for the cancelled blink. So I took a step and got killed. It's my own fault for not playing slowly enough, but god that sucks.
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Dec 22, 2016 15:59
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I thought spell casting was mostly to depress spell hunger though?
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Dec 22, 2016 16:04
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Digging is cool, plz don't remove
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Dec 22, 2016 16:12
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LordSloth posted:Many of my wins are actually with Cheibriados aside from that lovely initial period when you find an altar on D:2 and don't have any good tools to help out survive Grinder... Chei is good even outside of speedruns. Some of these are actually things that I wouldn't mind seeing and could be dangerous as gently caress. Mainly: Reckless, Accursed and Poor Vision.
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Dec 22, 2016 16:24
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Shinino Kage posted:Some of these are actually things that I wouldn't mind seeing and could be dangerous as gently caress. Mainly: Reckless, Accursed and Poor Vision. Reckless and Poor Vision are just interface screws that don't actually affect good play if you are willing to introduce more tedium. I'm not sure if you are allowed to manipulate level gen with a mutation either. You might be able to rework it into it occasionally spawning ghost around you, but that sounds more like a curse than a physical mutation.
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Dec 22, 2016 17:11
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Floodkiller posted:Reckless and Poor Vision are just interface screws that don't actually affect good play if you are willing to introduce more tedium. I'm not sure if you are allowed to manipulate level gen with a mutation either. You might be able to rework it into it occasionally spawning ghost around you, but that sounds more like a curse than a physical mutation. Make malmutates curses.
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Dec 22, 2016 17:13
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I thought we had a good idea a while back about malmutate by turning the initial blasts of it into temporary mutations that go away with enough XP a la draining or stat loss but if you got hit with another malmutate when you had enough mutations it would possibly cement them from temporary to permanent. Obviously needs some work fine-tuning it but I thought it was a nice mix of not punishing people for walking into line of sight of a shining eye or having to tank an OoF while reminding you that you have to avoid being repeatedly mutated in one sitting or else these things will stick with you.
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Dec 22, 2016 17:15
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I think i'm gonna hunker down and start grinding out some practice. I've gotten to where getting to lair/orc is consistent but I've kinda hit a plateau. My practice strategy has been to mindlessly o-tab until I either die or get a decent piece of loot and then start playing carefully after I have a good piece of gear to work with. Speeds up the early game quite significantly. What should my skill progression look like as a halfling skald? I've been focusing on charms and spellcasting first to get my starting spells all memorized and at a decent success rate then focusing on short blades and stealth to kill poo poo quicker. Is this about right for the early game?
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Dec 22, 2016 17:18
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Look how big the apple tile is. Jeez
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Dec 22, 2016 17:24
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Floodkiller posted:You jest, but one or both are probably next on the chopping block. Good, I hate it when characters get utility from things.
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Dec 22, 2016 17:33
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Floodkiller posted:I am honestly more concerned about losing the wand of hasting for mummies over heal wounds. You had Oka, which compensates for this on the melee side. I saw Finesse was used 35 times at 25-27; when did you feel it was necessary for surviving the encounter over just spending excess piety on a reasonable threat? like I said before, I will do another Mu run without Oka if that is what is needed to convince people. Internet Kraken posted:Mummies are absolutely a case where I'd use every acquirement scroll on wands ASAP because having a source of heal wounds simply makes the game much safer. I do not see which part of the game Mu is greatly affected by loss of heal wounds wand.
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Dec 22, 2016 17:33
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Haste is the bigger loss IMO, but I don't think I've ever played a mummy so my opinion on that is limited.
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Dec 22, 2016 17:41
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IronicDongz posted:like I said before, I will do another Mu run without Oka if that is what is needed to convince people. Please don't suffer for other people's opinions. I was asking in curiosity, not in disagreement.
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Dec 22, 2016 17:47
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Prism posted:Haste is the bigger loss IMO, but I don't think I've ever played a mummy so my opinion on that is limited. IronicDongz posted:Lacking haste matters more, but the game is certainly still winnable... 
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Dec 22, 2016 17:48
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I've been splatting mummy abyssal knights like crazy for the last hour. I'll prove them all wrong.
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Dec 22, 2016 17:54
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Yeah, I saw that, but almost everyone seems to be focusing on heal wounds despite that. In other news, the thread has done good for newbies because autofight_stop now defaults to 50%, not 30%, to teach new players to run earlier. Also the fencer's gloves and guardian golem descriptions were updated so that you know a) they stack with regular riposte and b) they can explode at low health, respectively. Also you can acquire helmets now. Hurray!
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Dec 22, 2016 17:55
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Prism posted:In other news, the thread has done good for newbies because autofight_stop now defaults to 50%, not 30%, to teach new players to run earlier. Also the fencer's gloves and guardian golem descriptions were updated so that you know a) they stack with regular riposte and b) they can explode at low health, respectively. This is great news! Setting my autofight-stop % to 65 was the biggest step in securing my first win.
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Dec 22, 2016 17:59
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one of the interesting things about dcss: circus animals was that the dev wasn't actually that experienced with the game, and so he came at some things from a very different perspective from what you'd find in this thread or other parts of the 'crawl community'. in particular, he was startled by how weak healing was past the early game. Healing potions/wands don't scale, so past a certain point, !hw is gonna be healing 10% of your hp or less per quaff, often not even enough to keep up with incoming damage. this is very different from how other games work, and the dcss:ca felt that healing/curing needed to be buffed dramatically - they were 'practically useless' later on!Prism posted:Also the fencer's gloves and guardian golem descriptions were updated so that you know a) they stack with regular riposte and b) they can explode at low health, respectively. well, the fencers' gloves already described that they stacked with long blade riposte - i guess LogicNinja never actually read the description? quote:They have a natural affinity with the riposte, allowing their wielder to retaliate against some missed attacks with any weapon, or to retaliate against all attacks when using a long blade. the problem was that riposte chance got nerfed from 50% to 33% a while back, so the stacked chance went from 100% to 67%, so fencer's gloves + long blade no longer retaliates against "all" [missed] attacks
PleasingFungus fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Dec 22, 2016 |
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Dec 22, 2016 18:01
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Prism posted:Yeah, I saw that, but almost everyone seems to be focusing on heal wounds despite that. You couldn't acquire helmets before from an Barmour acquisition? Or can you specify what type you're looking for? Actually, now that I think of it it'd be cool to be able to narrow down an acquire request to an armour slot specifically...
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Dec 22, 2016 18:05
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PleasingFungus posted:one of the interesting things about dcss: circus animals was that the dev wasn't actually that experienced with the game, and so he came at some things from a very different perspective from what you'd find in this thread or other parts of the 'crawl community'. in particular, he was startled by how weak healing was past the early game. Healing potions/wands don't scale, so past a certain point, !hw is gonna be healing 10% of your hp or less per quaff, often not even enough to keep up with incoming damage. this is very different from how other games work, and the dcss:ca felt that healing/curing needed to be buffed dramatically - they were 'practically useless' later on! Yeah, that's one of the unique things about Crawl to me and part of the reason I'm not really upset about losing the HW wands. Healing has never been a primary tactic, even to the point of sort of being relegated to one god choice.
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Dec 22, 2016 18:06
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PleasingFungus posted:well, the fencers' gloves already described that they stacked with long blade riposte - i guess LogicNinja never actually read the description? Ah, that's on me, I wasn't paying attention to the commit and only noticed that the description was changed. FulsomFrank posted:You couldn't acquire helmets before from an Barmour acquisition? Or can you specify what type you're looking for? It was in fact bugged to only give you hats even if you could equip helmets. Prism fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Dec 22, 2016 |
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Dec 22, 2016 18:07
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IronicDongz posted:MuFi^Oka I was I was good enough at this game to incontrovertibly rebut an argument like this. This does make me feel a lot better about the change. I thought about the last (and only) time I got close to a win, when I ate it to an Ancient Lich on Zot:5 as a GrBe. No amount of high tier wands would have saved me from myself and I don't recall even using them during the run. But I guess that's the philosophy behind the change, huh? Edit: Wow, I pulled my morgue for that game and it's super enlightening. Died to a crystal spear for 89(!) damage, plus a number of questionable things like wearing gourmand in Zot:5. Humorously, I also may be misremembering because the three types of wands I was carrying are Heal Wounds, Teleport, and Haste. I only evoked wands in total exactly 12 times though. SettingSun fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Dec 22, 2016 |
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Dec 22, 2016 18:13
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Floodkiller posted:Please don't suffer for other people's opinions. I was asking in curiosity, not in disagreement. I might actually do mummy abyssal knight myself because corrupt is such a fun ability *I am incredibly petty
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Dec 22, 2016 18:22
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