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Healers are fine, but they also have the best ults in the game. Maybe that's where the issue lies.
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Dec 24, 2016 22:26
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Tenebrais posted:Ult charge should reward good play, and good play for a healer is doing healing. chumbler posted:Ding ding ding we have a winner. Ult charge rewarding good play is secondary to not creating perverse incentives. However, the answer isn't necessarily "don't have healers" -- it's "don't design characters whose primary function is healing." Look at how "healers" are designed in, for instance, 4th Edition D&D or Bloodline Champions -- they're basically dps/utility characters with heals attached as riders to their attacks. They might have one or two abilities that are for pure healing but they're not expected to use them all the time or even most of the time.
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Dec 24, 2016 22:29
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Ult charge rewarding good play is secondary to not creating perverse incentives. It's funny because Blizzard had this mentality when Diablo 3 was being made for the most part. They knew that being a healbot wasn't exactly the role most people would want, and then they proceeded to just throw healbotting right the hell back into HOTS and Overwatch.
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Dec 24, 2016 22:36
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Ult charge rewarding good play is secondary to not creating perverse incentives. 4E D&D was bland as gently caress, though. It was a MMO design document somebody accidentally submitted in lieu of a tabletop RPG.
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Dec 24, 2016 22:38
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Cabbit posted:4E D&D was bland as gently caress, though. It was a MMO design document somebody accidentally submitted in lieu of a tabletop RPG. This opinion was dumb grognard bullshit even when the core books were all 4E had, and it was even less true by the end of the game's publishing cycle.
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Dec 24, 2016 22:39
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:This opinion was dumb grognard bullshit even when the core books were all 4E had, and it was even less true by the end of the game's publishing cycle. More or less dumb than forcing 'grognard' as actual thing in lieu of just saying 'whining'?
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Dec 24, 2016 22:42
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Cabbit posted:More or less dumb than forcing 'grognard' as actual thing in lieu of just saying 'whining'? haha wait you're upset by the word grognard it really is a christmas miracle
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Dec 24, 2016 22:43
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grognard is an actual word that means things and he's right to use it
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Dec 24, 2016 22:43
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Anyways, D&D and MMO design principles have been in an incestuous relationship since the first MUD crawled out of the primordial ooze of the internet. You might as well ape the one that plays like a good MMO.
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Dec 24, 2016 22:44
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Tiler Kiwi posted:grognard is an actual word that means things and he's right to use it I'm aware, but literally the first and only time I've ever seen it on an english speaking message board is deployed against people who had the gall to not like 4E. It's always come off as pretentious. Edit: This is ludicrously off topic, nevermind. Cabbit fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Dec 24, 2016 |
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Dec 24, 2016 22:44
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ToastyPotato posted:It's funny because Blizzard had this mentality when Diablo 3 was being made for the most part. They knew that being a healbot wasn't exactly the role most people would want, and then they proceeded to just throw healbotting right the hell back into HOTS and Overwatch. I agree, Healers should follow the Zenyatta school of design.
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Dec 24, 2016 22:47
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4e is literally the only good version of d&d
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Dec 24, 2016 22:54
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Boogle posted:I agree, Healers should follow the Zenyatta school of design. I now wish Ice Wall was given to a healer. There are plenty of fun and interesting abilities that Blizz could have given to a healer. Stuff like Sonic Arrow and Junkrat trap. I guess what I'm saying is to remix the Defense heroes and the healers together.
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Dec 24, 2016 22:58
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Pomp posted:4e is literally the only good version of d&d There are no universally good versions of D&D, just ones that are less bad for various different purposes. Sometimes even 3.5 is the best tool for what you want to do. But when you're trying to crib design principles for a team-based game where every role is supposed to be distinct, limited, and useful there's an obvious match.
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Dec 24, 2016 23:00
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Duck and Cover posted:What's that making huge meaty hitpoint shields causes people to just stack them? No it causes people to shoot them until they die. The problem stems from when they make people die faster, and when they can't be killed.
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Dec 24, 2016 23:03
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I don't think having healing-focused characters is a bad thing (admittedly I say this as a support) but they suffer more from having infinite no-cost healing. There's little to no downtime to any healing which makes it harder to balance. Health as a resource that needs to be charged in some fashion would offer a lot more flexibility in design, but it would then run more seriously into the problem of healing being powerful but not popular. A lot of healer characters in any multiplayer game are pretty overpowered strictly to incentivize people to play them. (Hell, Overwatch basically gives you a free gold medal for deciding to pick Mercy/Lucio/Zenyatta/Ana.) Since they want them to be powerful to justify that they end up with hard-as-poo poo to balance characters. Look at how little it takes to push Zenyatta or Lucio or Mercy or Ana from weak to a must-play.
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Dec 24, 2016 23:14
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ana heals too much and lucio's speed boost is too much of an absolute necessity. fix those problems and the support situation in overwatch would be perfect
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Dec 24, 2016 23:23
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It's worth noting that almost every time a support has wound up OP or over-picked it's because of something other than their ability to restore HP though. With Mercy it was having a rez every fight, Lucio is a must-have because of his speed boost, and when Zenyatta was deforming the balance of the game it was because of 50% damage buff discord. While perverse incentives exist because of the way healing and ult charge interact but Ana is really the first time a support has had this much impact on the game purely as a result of their healing capabilities being too good.
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Dec 24, 2016 23:25
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Gimnbo posted:I now wish Ice Wall was given to a healer. There are plenty of fun and interesting abilities that Blizz could have given to a healer. Stuff like Sonic Arrow and Junkrat trap. plz make junkrat grenades also heal teammates blizz
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Dec 24, 2016 23:30
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 Woke up to a tiny Xmas miracle. Ho ho ho.
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Dec 24, 2016 23:30
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what if junkrat had the loose cannon instead of the pipe launcher
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Dec 24, 2016 23:31
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Manatee Cannon posted:ana heals too much and lucio's speed boost is too much of an absolute necessity. fix those problems and the support situation in overwatch would be perfect the support situation will never be perfect as long as supports are loving healbots instead of interesting characters that bring interesting utility to the team
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Dec 24, 2016 23:32
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Pomp posted:the support situation will never be perfect as long as supports are loving healbots instead of interesting characters that bring interesting utility to the team this is why ana and zenyatta are the best healers, also, though
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Dec 24, 2016 23:33
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literally the only support that is kind of like that is mercy
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Dec 24, 2016 23:33
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Manatee Cannon posted:literally the only support that is kind of like that is mercy Cowcaster posted:this is why ana and zenyatta are the best healers, also, though three of them bring healing as their primary utility, with four ults that are just press q to keep to win the fight in a just world all of the tanks would be labeled as a support and the current supports would have much weaker/no heals
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Dec 24, 2016 23:36
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ana's got a grenade that prevents healing and a sleep dart zenyatta's got a damage debuff and the ability to heal while actually putting out reasonable damage i guess technically yes they're primarily picked for their healing but that's literally the prescribed function of supports (sans symmetra) in this game
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Dec 24, 2016 23:38
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Oh cool, 5 free boxes for X-mas. Let's see what i 
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Dec 24, 2016 23:44
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zen and lucio are not primarily healers and ana has such a versatile kit that classifying her like that is just flat out wrong. then you have symmetra, who is... well, symmetra
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Dec 24, 2016 23:45
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let's not go crazy here, yeah his speed boost is great and all but literally the only reason lucio is picked is so he can dick around being bored while healing the entire team simultaneously
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Dec 24, 2016 23:47
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Symmetra actually earns her Support place now. Shield generator is basically a Bastion-Lucio.
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Dec 24, 2016 23:48
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Manatee Cannon posted:zen and lucio are not primarily healers and ana has such a versatile kit that classifying her like that is just flat out wrong. then you have symmetra, who is... well, symmetra This conversation kicked off with a discussion of how people wouldn't use the healers (or wouldn't play them right) if healing weren't rewarded with ult charge. Lucio's picked for speed boost (which doesn't grant ult charge, of course) but it would probably be good for him to have some way of building his ult other than his fart gun. Cowcaster posted:let's not go crazy here, yeah his speed boost is great and all but literally the only reason lucio is picked is so he can dick around being bored while healing the entire team simultaneously I can't tell if you're joking or not but nah, it's the exact opposite / what Manatee said. Speed boost is Lucio's reason for existing, at least if we're talking about balance rather than "how do we convince gold-rank players to pick him?"
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Dec 24, 2016 23:48
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Cowcaster posted:let's not go crazy here, yeah his speed boost is great and all but literally the only reason lucio is picked is so he can dick around being bored while healing the entire team simultaneously no it is seriously the speed boost. that's the only reason he's been the top pick in pro play since beta, and unless they remove it or give something similar to another character it's gonna stay that way
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Dec 24, 2016 23:50
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i guess i'm wrong then but that doesn't change my opinion that lucio is straight up the most boring motherfucker in the game to play
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Dec 24, 2016 23:55
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There are people who are attracted to a character like Mercy whose primary function is healing, and not just heal sluts. I think it's fine that it exists for people who like it, she's not the one causing the meta.
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Dec 24, 2016 23:57
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Cowcaster posted:i guess i'm wrong then but that doesn't change my opinion that lucio is straight up the most boring motherfucker in the game to play well, maybe mercy or torb
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Dec 24, 2016 23:59
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bastion has an emote that's a tooted song and it's so long you can repeat it forever
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Dec 25, 2016 00:01
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Remove all healing, give supports other abilities to compensate, remove mercy, rework reinhardt and remove his shield, or just heavily nerf his shield, and overwatch will be a much better game to both watch and play.
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Dec 25, 2016 00:12
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Zenyatta's healing is, at most, okay. He's picked largely because of a combination of discord, his own considerable damage, and his ult. Unless you're making a clever joke about him being an omnic he's the opposite of a healbot. Ana's healing is strong enough to warp the balance all over but even if you tune that down she has a gun that does 80 damage per hit and can hitscan quickscope plus her grenade plus sleep dart plus nanoboost. And then you have Lucio who would be picked even if his healing was literally removed entirely. The only "healbot" healer in the game is Mercy, specifically designed to appeal to people who want to hold a medigun on people and I guess weird foot fetishists too, but of all the complaints one could level at supports and healing in Overwatch "supports are all just boring healbots" isn't really one.
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Dec 25, 2016 00:17
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is there no healing in dota is that why everyone's out for removing it from the game to make it more engaging all of a sudden
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Dec 25, 2016 00:19
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i bully the poo poo out of people (mainly Reinhardts and DVas) with Lucio with the doot on the cart and on points with chasms, you don't have to pay him passively. you should also be using the speed boost to keep everybody close to the front lines whenever no one needs heals
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Dec 25, 2016 00:20
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