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A Buttery Pastry posted:Well, it's the same thing really, at its core. Centrist politicians ignore every negative of their policies, from general economic problems to social problems caused by having immigration without a plan for integration (on top of bad economic policies), which creates an economic and cultural impetus for reform among the citizenry. The far right, helped by the center right, then seizes this to push their own policies. That's a fair assessment, but still - the policies that are going to bring about the results that they at least say they want, aren't going to work quickly enough for their tastes. There's nothing sexy or instantly gratifying about the government investing in anti-housing or job discrimination programs for Muslims, and a lot of flat-out racists will raise a stink over it. There aren't any easy or instantly gratifying solutions to things like Islamist terrorism, and saying that pursuing actually effective policies will lead to fascists getting elected, as some have done here, just isn't a very convincing reason not to push for those policies.
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Dec 24, 2016 10:54
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Leftists in Europe have been caught in a tight spot with the illegal immigrant/refugee situation as well. I mean leftist posters here have the tendency to push for open borders from an ideological standpoint knowing that theres no real chance of economic policies being implemented to mitigate immigration/integration issues.
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Dec 24, 2016 11:02
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shrike82 posted:Leftists in Europe have been caught in a tight spot with the illegal immigrant/refugee situation as well. I mean leftist posters here have the tendency to push for open borders from an ideological standpoint knowing that theres no real chance of economic policies being implemented to mitigate immigration/integration issues. They're happy to oppose skilled people coming in to work though, because that would undercut local wages. Not complete hypocrites. Majorian posted:Errrr, is it? I think it's more about neoliberalism and free trade leaving a lot of non-rich people behind, then far rightists scapegoating non-whites for all their problems. A Buttery Pastry posted:Well, it's the same thing really, at its core. Centrist politicians ignore every negative of their policies, from general economic problems to social problems caused by having immigration without a plan for integration (on top of bad economic policies), which creates an economic and cultural impetus for reform among the citizenry. The far right, helped by the center right, then seizes this to push their own policies. The center right has given up on refugees but still stands quite strong on free trade. The myth (yes, it's a myth in Europe, and the trade aspect to it is overstated in the US as well: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/upshot/the-american-middle-class-is-no-longer-the-worlds-richest.html) that incomes for the poorest have stagnated because of globalization has driven voters to the far right though, I agree with that.. I also think that you're confusing the center right stance on undocumented migrants (in particular, this refugee crisis) and their general stance of immigration (i.e. people coming in to work on visas), which hasn't changed as far as I've seen.
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Dec 24, 2016 11:27
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shrike82 posted:Leftists in Europe have been caught in a tight spot with the illegal immigrant/refugee situation as well. I mean leftist posters here have the tendency to push for open borders from an ideological standpoint knowing that theres no real chance of economic policies being implemented to mitigate immigration/integration issues. Posters like who. Nobody here has argued for open borders.
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Dec 24, 2016 11:52
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Friendly Humour posted:Posters like who. Nobody here has argued for open borders. I have, and I will continue to. The real reason there's an immigration wave anyway isn't open borders, it's the fact that there's a civil war in Syria and Iraq.
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Dec 24, 2016 12:36
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YF-23 posted:I have, and I will continue to. No it's open borders into Northern European social states otherwise they would have stayed in Middle Eastern countries not touched by civil war (or Turkey). But if Greeks want open borders, I'm fine with that, as long as you take care of the refugees and not just hand them through.
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Dec 24, 2016 12:41
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It's not that simple. There are many people moving to Europe from Africa, etc. because they want a better life with more opportunities, and they are not refugees. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but open borders will never happen and no political party that I know of is in favor of them.
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Dec 24, 2016 12:42
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doverhog posted:It's not that simple. There are many people moving to Europe from Africa, etc. because they want a better life with more opportunities, and they are not refugees. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but open borders will never happen and no political party that I know of is in favor of them. It is because it's literally illegal for them to travel into European countries, as they have no valid visa and/or work permit.
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Dec 24, 2016 12:43
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A political party could run on making it legal.  But they don't.
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Dec 24, 2016 12:45
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GaussianCopula posted:No it's open borders into Northern European social states otherwise they would have stayed in Middle Eastern countries not touched by civil war (or Turkey). You're wrong on all counts, but hey, that hasn't stopped you before.
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Dec 24, 2016 13:09
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YF-23 posted:I have, and I will continue to. What about the approx 50% of migrants to Europe last year who weren't from Syria or Iraq? The far left position of completely open borders will only serve to damage migrants who are actually deserving in the long-run. Proper vetting of migrants, and acceptance of genuine war zone cases, would be a political stance that would probably resonate with a decent percentage of the population. But the "completely open borders, accept everyone" stance just serves to empower the hard-right, who will completely close the borders when they get a chance.
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Dec 24, 2016 13:48
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Blut posted:What about the approx 50% of migrants to Europe last year who weren't from Syria or Iraq? is there anyone on the far left that supports open borders? im really asking here. any examples? because, for example zizek as being saying this: http://qz.com/767751/marxist-philosopher-slavoj-zizek-on-europes-refugee-crisis-the-left-is-wrong-to-pity-and-romanticize-migrants/ and sure zizek is kinda of a loon troll but my experience is that a lot of people on the far left position is "legit refugees from war zones yes" unless you're counting merkel as far left, which, ya know... Alo merry christmas, worst thread. im hangover from eggnogg and port please bear with me here. also , get drunk on eggnogg and port its great
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Dec 24, 2016 14:34
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Blut posted:What about the approx 50% of migrants to Europe last year who weren't from Syria or Iraq? A good amount of them are also refugees, coming from other conflict-ridden parts of the world. I'm also willing to bet that a lot of immigrants from "safe" countries are riding the wave so-to-speak. However, ultimately, people don't leave their homes for shits and giggles, they leave their homes because their lives there are poo poo compared to elsewhere. People will always seek greener pastures, come hell or high water, and no amount of border protection can really stop that. The only reliable way to stem immigration is for people to not feel like their home is something they need to escape from. The single biggest thing that could happen to allow for such a thing is for western countries to stop military interventions (other countries as well, but historically it is the United States and the Victorian colonisers that bear most of the blame for this). It's hilarious easy, with present hindsight, to see how things like the division of the Middle East after WW1 and such have been instrumental in today's mess coming to be. In short, the only effective border control is to not need border control in the first place.
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Dec 24, 2016 14:44
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YF-23 posted:A good amount of them are also refugees, coming from other conflict-ridden parts of the world. I'm also willing to bet that a lot of immigrants from "safe" countries are riding the wave so-to-speak. However, ultimately, people don't leave their homes for shits and giggles, they leave their homes because their lives there are poo poo compared to elsewhere. People will always seek greener pastures, come hell or high water, and no amount of border protection can really stop that. The only reliable way to stem immigration is for people to not feel like their home is something they need to escape from. The single biggest thing that could happen to allow for such a thing is for western countries to stop military interventions (other countries as well, but historically it is the United States and the Victorian colonisers that bear most of the blame for this). It's hilarious easy, with present hindsight, to see how things like the division of the Middle East after WW1 and such have been instrumental in today's mess coming to be. Something like 90% of the world would be better off living as poor people in Greece (let alone Germany or Norway) than they are right now, so unfortunately the "not leaving their home for shits and giggles" argument doesn't really work. I mean that of course it's true that these people are not well off and that's why they're leaving, but it's not really sustainable to open borders for them while maintain current levels of welfare spending if you care at all about the existing populace. Which presumably you do, because you've said many times that living standards in Greece for the poor are too low as it stands. Blaming the west (rightly or wrongly) isn't going to fix anything. It won't bring peace to Syria, it won't bring peace to Somalia or the Congo. Instead, focus on expanding/continuing the policies that helped bring a billion people (mainly in Asia) out of poverty, such as expanding free trade and trying to bring stable, non-extractive institutions and governments into these regions.
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Dec 24, 2016 16:08
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As it fits right into the discussion, the most important chart of 2016 The populist wave in the West is basically the 80-90 percentile being angry that they lost.
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Dec 24, 2016 18:34
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GaussianCopula posted:As it fits right into the discussion, the most important chart of 2016 And it should be mentioned that that percentile are the working class in the 'developed' nations. So Western Europe, Commonwealth, USA. Working people were the most hosed over worldwide in terms of real change in income.
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Dec 24, 2016 21:26
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Tesseraction posted:And it should be mentioned that that percentile are the working class in the 'developed' nations. So Western Europe, Commonwealth, USA. Working people were the most hosed over worldwide in terms of real change in income. Entire regions of the states of Ohio & Michigan & Indiana were shipped off to China, the companies could be threatened to come back, but those jobs will not.
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Dec 24, 2016 22:42
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GaussianCopula posted:As it fits right into the discussion, the most important chart of 2016 most of the growth in the lower half of that graph comes from China by the way
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Dec 24, 2016 23:05
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Something like 90% of the world would be better off living as poor people in Greece (let alone Germany or Norway) than they are right now, so unfortunately the "not leaving their home for shits and giggles" argument doesn't really work. I mean that of course it's true that these people are not well off and that's why they're leaving, but it's not really sustainable to open borders for them while maintain current levels of welfare spending if you care at all about the existing populace. Which presumably you do, because you've said many times that living standards in Greece for the poor are too low as it stands. Assigning blame is important you doofus. You need to recognise what caused things to go bad in order to avoid it in future. You can't pretend it's ok to continue intervening in foreign conflicts, that it won't cause instability that will result in a blowback to the rest of the world.
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Dec 25, 2016 00:14
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People will always migrate from lovely places to not-so-lovely places. When the lovely places get too lovely, a lot more people migrate. The history of mankind is one of mass migrations, invasions, counter-invasions, and so on. It's kind of what we do. I migrated to Europe myself, I'm lucky I had European citizenship and an extremely valuable skillset, but seriously it was like a 1000% increase in quality of life, income, you name it, it improved drastically. And I had what I considered to be a pretty sweet life back in South America. You can't blame people for wanting to get to Europe, it's too drat good an opportunity to pass up. Like, you can't even begin to imagine how good it is. I know I'm slowly getting used to it and taking it for granted.
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Dec 25, 2016 00:23
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code:merry christmas d&d
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Dec 25, 2016 00:25
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It's really simple to end 99% of migration to your country: simply make it so crappy for everyone that the living envy the dead and everyone gets too busy fleeing. 🐱
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Dec 25, 2016 01:33
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What a coincidence! This is exactly the end result of ordoliberal austerity!
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Dec 25, 2016 01:41
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fishmech posted:It's really simple to end 99% of migration to your country: simply make it so crappy for everyone that the living envy the dead and everyone gets too busy fleeing. 🐱 Ah, so that's why Trump tweeted that the world needs more nuclear weapons.
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Dec 25, 2016 02:03
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fishmech posted:It's really simple to end 99% of migration to your country: simply make it so crappy for everyone that the living envy the dead and everyone gets too busy fleeing. 🐱 Going by that standard, Brexit worked extremely well, hell I've started learning German.
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Dec 25, 2016 02:14
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fishmech posted:It's really simple to end 99% of migration to your country: simply make it so crappy for everyone that the living envy the dead and everyone gets too busy fleeing. 🐱 France has started the process
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Dec 25, 2016 03:58
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Pochoclo posted:Going by that standard, Brexit worked extremely well, hell I've started learning German. Because you're pro-Europe or because you're part of the far-right resurgence?
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Dec 25, 2016 04:11
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Nonsense posted:Entire regions of the states of Ohio & Michigan & Indiana were shipped off to China, the companies could be threatened to come back, but those jobs will not. That's nice, what's it got to do with European politics?
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Dec 25, 2016 04:13
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Tesseraction posted:Because you're pro-Europe or because you're part of the far-right resurgence? No, because due to the devaluation of the pound, and the ongoing migration of companies, Berlin is starting to become a really interesting place to move to. It's also super easy to buy a house there, unlike London.
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Dec 25, 2016 04:40
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Tesseraction posted:That's nice, what's it got to do with European politics? We affect your every thought and motion. Also Trump will probably smash the EU.
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Dec 25, 2016 06:33
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Nonsense posted:We affect your every thought and motion. Nonsense posted:Entire regions of the states of Ohio & Michigan & Indiana were shipped off to China, the companies could be threatened to come back, but those jobs will not. Nice username/posts combo.
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Dec 25, 2016 09:08
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General migration debate aside, how hard is it to keep an illegal immigrant convicted of a crime detained in a prison cell until he agrees to leave voluntarily? He is already an illegal immigrant and a criminal, a government could pay for a plane ticket and a marshal. Finland at the least is doing forced deportations, I don't understand why the Tunisian dude was just let go.
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Dec 25, 2016 13:31
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DarkCrawler posted:General migration debate aside, how hard is it to keep an illegal immigrant convicted of a crime detained in a prison cell until he agrees to leave voluntarily? He is already an illegal immigrant and a criminal, a government could pay for a plane ticket and a marshal. Finland at the least is doing forced deportations, I don't understand why the Tunisian dude was just let go.
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Dec 25, 2016 13:43
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DarkCrawler posted:General migration debate aside, how hard is it to keep an illegal immigrant convicted of a crime detained in a prison cell until he agrees to leave voluntarily? He is already an illegal immigrant and a criminal, a government could pay for a plane ticket and a marshal. Finland at the least is doing forced deportations, I don't understand why the Tunisian dude was just let go. How do you prove he's Tunisian if he doesn't cooperate and the Tunisian government doesn't send papers confirming his identity? Do you just ship him anywhere?
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Dec 25, 2016 14:00
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I'm sure for the right price somewhere on the European periphery could be convinced to set up a 'holding area' for those stateless convicted illegal immigrant criminals who refuse to admit where they're from. Let them stay there until they admit where they're actually from, then send then home. The Australian system that does this seems to work rather well.
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Dec 25, 2016 14:18
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Blut posted:I'm sure for the right price somewhere on the European periphery could be convinced to set up a 'holding area' for those stateless convicted illegal immigrant criminals who refuse to admit where they're from. Let them stay there until they admit where they're actually from, then send then home. The Australian system that does this seems to work rather well.
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Dec 25, 2016 14:31
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The EU could subsidize the Azores by turning one of the islands into a holding area. A clear win-win solution. I'd rather use Greenland, I'm sure a deal can be worked out with them. A lot of land that needs to be worked.
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Dec 25, 2016 15:11
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Would that be cheaper than putting people on a plane, shoving them out the door onto the airfield and taking off?
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Dec 25, 2016 15:20
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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GaussianCopula posted:I'd rather use Greenland, I'm sure a deal can be worked out with them. A lot of land that needs to be worked. blowfish posted:Would that be cheaper than putting people on a plane, shoving them out the door onto the airfield and taking off? 
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Dec 25, 2016 15:24
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Please stop posting your favourite ways to torture immigrants. Jesus christ.
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Dec 25, 2016 15:28
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