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Schwarzwald posted:Follow this line of thought one step further. precision posted:If you can't fill in that last blank yourself, interpreting fiction may not be in your wheelhouse. No, I'm going to need you guys to tell me why you think the Imperial defector pilot is a well developed character. He is threadbare at best.
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Dec 27, 2016 01:21
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TFA and R1 are not ostentatiously deep movies that are fun to talk about. R1 is a humble film so there is far less to controversy. TFA was discussed but I think there isn't enough new to them warrant a longer debate.The prequels are fun to talk about because of the controversial aspects of them sucking and following up a successful series of movies. Hubris is always fodder for discussion.
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Dec 27, 2016 01:23
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We wouldnt be talking about the prequels at all if tge prequel defenders stfu
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Dec 27, 2016 01:24
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Phi230 posted:We wouldnt be talking about the prequels at all if tge prequel defenders stfu
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Dec 27, 2016 01:27
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"Plinkett" just released a "review" of R1. And how the mighty have fallen. Plinkett I mean. It's a review equal to that New Yorker one that was written as a troll and to get hits to the site. It looks at one scene and misses the point, plays a laugh track over some of the legitimate jokes to complain there's a joke in a Star Wars movie (and dosn't reference Vader's line) and complains that a Star Wars movie set 2 hours before a New Hope lacks context. I think I just figured it out. It's a review of a movie based on watching the trailers. Good grief.
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Dec 27, 2016 01:29
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Bongo Bill posted:Actually it's pretty easy to dispute them. Messages. Themes should be recursive and present at every level of your work, how strongly on each level is up to the creator. Messages, however, should be stated at the level at which their intended recipients are generally receiving your work. Otherwise it's only so much masturbatory fluff. If the people you wrote a message for aren't getting it, who is the message for? If, for example, you have a message about the creative process of film meant for those who also understand the process, masking it within the confines of a trippy action film about dreams makes sense. Your message is for a very particular audience who will be reading the film at that level. If you're trying to deliver an anti-racist subversive message through characters the general populace will perceive as funny characters and a smaller subset of the populace will see as racist caricatures, as has been presented as an argument of Lucas's intent, then who is your message for. The vast majority will simply see nothing at all or see racism. It is a very small subset of a subset that will see anything else. Mind, I don't buy that argument, I just refuse to argue from a point of assuming a lack of genuineness in my opposition.
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Dec 27, 2016 01:30
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Ironically, the most explicit message of the prequels is the need to learn how to let go. 
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Dec 27, 2016 01:33
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Lord Hydronium posted:Rogue One is pretty cool and has been inspiring more discussion than TFA in this thread, but it unfortunately keeps getting drowned out by Hot Takes On Why The Prequels Are Bad, Part Eleventy. Cool Ill look out for those things when I finally see A Star Wars Story. (Im holding out for IMAX next weekend.)
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Dec 27, 2016 01:34
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Lord Hydronium posted:Ironically, the most explicit message of the prequels is the need to learn how to let go. From my perspective it's the disinterested that are evil.
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Dec 27, 2016 01:36
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Bongo Bill posted:Yeah, the characters are designed to resemble historical caricatures. It's pretty conspicuous. Think about what this means in the context of a movie entitled "The Unseen Problem," which ends with the villain tricking the protagonists into thinking they've saved the day. It's difficult make effective use of this sort of subversion when American audiences are only ever exposed to the caricatures.
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Dec 27, 2016 01:40
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Squinty posted:It's difficult make effective use of this sort of subversion when American audiences are only ever exposed to the caricatures. Bingo!
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Dec 27, 2016 01:41
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Adder Moray posted:Bingo! So you are admitting that they are subversive but .. . . most people don't get it? So who cares? You agree with the redemptive reading of the prequels but your opinion is that many people don't see that. So what. By the way why are you appointing yourself as an expert witness as to what "most" people think.
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Dec 27, 2016 01:44
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Holy poo poo this thread really lives up to its name. Is there a place where we have a fun and lighthearted conversation about how cool and good Rogue One was?
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Dec 27, 2016 01:44
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fat bossy gerbil posted:Holy poo poo this thread really lives up to its name. Is there a place where we have a fun and lighthearted conversation about how cool and good Rogue One was? If you wish to talk about Rogue One, please do so.
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Dec 27, 2016 01:48
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Beware youll have some prequel idiot saying how R1 needs more dildos and mexican jumping bean yoda
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Dec 27, 2016 01:50
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Bongo Bill posted:Think about the movie, rather than imagining its director. Yeah no no I get what you're going for. There's a plot twist, so it's like someone played a reverse Uno card on all the racism. It's not at all compelling, and you could do it for every film ever.
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Dec 27, 2016 01:55
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euphronius posted:So you are admitting that they are subversive but .. . . most people don't get it? Never said a word about what people think. It's about what people have seen, and if they've seen Hollywood movies (including OT and PT Star Wars) they haven't seen many Asian characters that weren't caricatures. When the caricature is more common than the reality, it's difficult to put JUST the caricature on screen and make it subversive.
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Dec 27, 2016 01:56
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I think that some of the complaints about R1's characters being underdeveloped is somewhat the nature of the beast with this movie. We are dropped in in media res and the time we spend in universe is strictly limited. In a sense we don't know the characters because we don't get to. Aside from a very few flashbacks with Jyn and Galen we get only the present to view and examine. This is an arc within an arc. Maybe it can be accused of weak or lazy story telling, but I thought the forced anonymity of the characters and their histories and motivations matches the anonymity of their struggles and actions.
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Dec 27, 2016 02:00
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Phi230 posted:We wouldnt be talking about the prequels at all if tge prequel defenders stfu Shut the gently caress up
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Dec 27, 2016 02:01
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euphronius posted:So you are admitting that they are subversive but .. . . most people don't get it? 1. Look 5 posts up. It's not hard. 2. Because it doesn't matter what message you intend to deliver to an audience if the message you deliver instead is the opposite. There are real life consequences to racist caricatures being portrayed in media. We just suffered one of those consequences in November. 3. Because I remember the 90s. Plenty of "these characters are racist"/"these characters are just funny aliens" not a single "these characters are faux racist caricatures in an effort to subvert racist caricatures."
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Dec 27, 2016 02:04
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Waffles Inc. posted:For all of the whining about people who like the prequels, has anyone who doesn't like them ever posted anything remotely substantive about why they think they're bad? You misunderstand the core reason behind reiterating their negative opinion of the prequels. They aren't doing it to enlighten or elucidate, they are doing it to keep the notion that the prequels are bad in play, period. Words about Star Wars prequels that single-handedly brought internet video franchises into existence are the same ones you'd find coming out of Sheldon Cooper's mouth as a way to remind the audience that the character is a hopeless nerd.
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Dec 27, 2016 02:07
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The real racists are the people who think Sam Jackson was "wasted" in these movies because he didn't play to type.
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Dec 27, 2016 02:08
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Trying to pull some deep meaning out of the prequels (or any of these movies for that matter) like they are anything other than simplistic tone-deaf fantasy films (and poorly directed ones at that) for children is loving delusional. Lucas isn't that smart. He isn't that clever. He doesn't have some grand social or political commentary going on here. They are every bit as shallow as they appear on the surface and it's kinda sad to see neckbeards trying to drag meaning out of them lest they bring themselves to admit that Star Wars isn't impressive from a thematic or literary standpoint. It's simple white knight vs. black knight fantasy poo poo transplanted into a science fiction setting. They work well on the level of popcorn flicks and they don't need to be anything other than that to be great. That's what made them great in the first place.
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Dec 27, 2016 02:12
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fat bossy gerbil posted:Trying to pull some deep meaning out of the prequels (or any of these movies for that matter) like they are anything other than simplistic tone-deaf fantasy films (and poorly directed ones at that) for children is loving delusional. Lucas isn't that smart. He isn't that clever. He doesn't have some grand social or political commentary going on here. Are you suggesting we should turn our brains off
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Dec 27, 2016 02:25
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Lord Hydronium posted:Rogue One is pretty cool and has been inspiring more discussion than TFA in this thread, but it unfortunately keeps getting drowned out by Hot Takes On Why The Prequels Are Bad, Part Eleventy. I like how the incorporated a lot of the 1st draft of Star Wars in the movie too. You've got the "Guardians of the Whills" as non-Jedi Force monks complete with "May the Force of Others be with you". To my knowledge "May the Force be with you" with the response "And also with you" has never appeared in the films but it's an obvious move. Plus we're going back to what made Star Wars great: ripping off Japanese movies. Zatoichi in SPACE is a great move. I'm sure some chomos in this thread can point out other elements in R1 lovingly borrowed from Japan and Hong Kong.
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Dec 27, 2016 02:26
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I remember watching the Kings speech and thinking it would have been a vastly more interesting movie if it had been about the nazi brother who abdicated. same with rogue one- saw and the church guys were by far the most interesting and we only saw glimpses. I've determined the movie I watched had saw set up watch over his religions last temple and become extremist to try to defend it another thought is that myself, my wife and at least one friend are unable to recall the names of the main two characters without prompting, that's how flat they were mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 02:37
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mastershakeman posted:I remember watching the Kings speech and thinking it would have been a vastly more interesting movie if it had been about the nazi brother who abdicated. same with rogue one- saw and the church guys were by far the most interesting and we only saw glimpses. I've determined the movie I watched had saw set up watch over his religions last temple and become extremist to try to defend it
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Dec 27, 2016 02:55
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But it clearly is what "people" want going by any of the normal metrics. What makes you think otherwise?
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Dec 27, 2016 03:07
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euphronius posted:THe prequels are still the most objectively interesting Star Wars movies going by this thread. I like the prequels because they show how people blinded by doing The Right Thing can both be toppled by evil and/or become evil themselves. The earlier post about how TPM is actually an ingenious way of showing how the Jedi constantly pick the superficial over the deeper is exactly the sort of stuff you can pull out of the prequels. Not saying there aren't flaws, because nothing is perfect, but I always feel the need to defend them because so many people reject the prequels out of surface level elements (bad lighting, "I hate sand", etc) when the real meat if the films are good and all about *not* looking at the superficial. Also that the Jedi were not a whole bunch of choir boys. Mace Windu being a dick to Anakin is both justified (because he became Vader) and the reason why he became Vader. It's an interesting dichotomy.
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Dec 27, 2016 03:10
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fat bossy gerbil posted:Trying to pull some deep meaning out of the prequels (or any of these movies for that matter) like they are anything other than simplistic tone-deaf fantasy films (and poorly directed ones at that) for children is loving delusional. Lucas isn't that smart. He isn't that clever. He doesn't have some grand social or political commentary going on here. I don't understand this at all. At first it reads like you thought these films were trash, but then your post ends with, "actually they're great." What the are you trying to argue? Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 03:12
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lol at the idea that popcorn films are merely superficial
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Dec 27, 2016 03:16
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Even within the realm of authorial intent, the idea that George Lucas, director of THX 1138 and American Graffiti, is uninterested or incapable of making films with social commentary and political themes is pretty funny
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Dec 27, 2016 03:16
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Oh I also really liked Rouge 1 and would rank it third after ESB, and ROTS. But it has flaws and that's OK because nothing is perfect.
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Dec 27, 2016 03:18
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Even within the realm of authorial intent, the idea that George Lucas, director of THX 1138 and American Graffiti, is uninterested or incapable of making films with social commentary and political themes is pretty funny
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Dec 27, 2016 03:19
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George Lucas is directing the sequel to Rogue One.
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Dec 27, 2016 03:20
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Lord Hydronium posted:If you want an echo chamber where you can complain about the prequels without being challenged, may I recommend this place called the rest of the Internet. If the small collection of peeps here all insist they are good over and over while everyone else laughs at them, whats the real echo chamber? Makes you think.
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Dec 27, 2016 03:20
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gently caress you got my hopes up .
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Dec 27, 2016 03:22
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I liked Wattos little Jew hat in Attack of the Clones. It went really well with his big hooked nose and mind focused on profit.
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Dec 27, 2016 03:24
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underage at the vape shop posted:If the small collection of peeps here all insist they are good over and over while everyone else laughs at them, whats the real echo chamber? The prequel defenders are providing justification. A good deal of the prequels haters are saying "nu-uh it sucks!" without making any further point or saying "the films as a whole are bad because of poor special effects in certain scenes." Not saying that the special effects aren't bad (they are) or that it shouldnt be criticized (it should), but rather that small flaws like that don't ruin the entire new trilogy. I will concede that not everyone has done that. The racial theory analysis of jar jar on the pro and anti side was very interesting.
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Dec 27, 2016 03:24
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Martman posted:He was a great Jedi once, but he was seduced by the dark side. Nobody in Star Wars was ever seduced by the Dark Side. Everyone who uses the Force to do evil has specific concrete motivations. Contrary to what Obi-Wan thinks, it's not like they just took a dose of Bad Magic and it flipped a switch in their brain from "good" to "evil." Similarly, the first three Star Wars prequels have specific and concrete reasons to be the way they are. They are not products of incompetence; I can recall only two occasions on which somebody was able to produce even so much as an example of an ugly shot from them. If you wish to talk about them instead of the recent fourth prequel, even if you subscribe to the nerd-majority opinion that they're bad, it'd be more interesting to talk about what makes them so.
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Dec 27, 2016 03:29
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