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I like how I started a multi-page derail about racist caricatures in TPM, but the one I said I didn't find racist (Jar-Jar) is the Hot Topic of discussion.
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Dec 27, 2016 03:33
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its all nice on rice posted:I like how I started a multi-page derail about racist caricatures in TPM, but the one I said I didn't find racist (Jar-Jar) is the Hot Topic of discussion. So I'm assuming Watto is the next most commonly cited one? Which others are there? And why are those ones bad while jar jar is not? Legit interested, not trolling.
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Dec 27, 2016 03:34
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axeil posted:So I'm assuming Watto is the next most commonly cited one? Which others are there? And why are those ones bad while jar jar is not? I'm guessing because they're antagonists.
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Dec 27, 2016 03:35
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Can someone help me with my memory? In episode IV there is a line of dialog something like: "A lot of <blank> died getting these plans for the deathstar." What was blank? Rebel spies?
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Dec 27, 2016 03:45
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axeil posted:So I'm assuming Watto is the next most commonly cited one? Which others are there? And why are those ones bad while jar jar is not? Also legit interested how people can reconcile the prequel aliens as coded racist stereotypes while accepting human characters who carry those same qualities (rogue one) or aliens from the original trilogy (Chuy, the Tusken Raiders and Jawas speaking straight up foreign languages) because... ~*like, y'know, whatever*~ reasons. ruddiger fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 03:45
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I think part of it is that we see a fairly positive side of Jar Jar over the prequels because he's on the Good Guy's side, while Watto's pettiness and the Neimoidian's cowardice dominate their roles since they're opposed to the Republic (and more specifically, Anakin). It's actually kinda funny how Anakin encounters both of those stereotypes from TPM in Episodes II and III. He doesn't really seem to give a poo poo about Watto except as a way to find his mother, but after his fall, he'll butcher the remnants of the Trade Federation in cold blood because he thinks it'll make Padme happy and the Republic safe. It's an interesting reflection of his seriously flawed self-image and how he puts Padme on a pedestal. He's still the slave boy bowing to his Master(s) and she's still his angel. The Grey posted:Can someone help me with my memory? In episode IV there is a line of dialog something like: You might be thinking of Episode 6, where Mon Mothma says "Many Bothans died to bring us this information". There's a (joke) Star Wars comic from before the reformation of the EU that hypothesises it was just one dude called Manny Bothans. ungulateman fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 03:47
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Waffles Inc. posted:For all of the whining about people who like the prequels, has anyone who doesn't like them ever posted anything remotely substantive about why they think they're bad? Pretend I posted the RLM reviews here for the millionth time The movies don't work at all and second-grader could see that, but here we are.
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Dec 27, 2016 03:54
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Unormal posted:This thread. I like the guy who decided to police the seven hundred and seventy fifth page of a Star Wars discussion thread for being too nerdy because somebody mentioned a card game.
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Dec 27, 2016 03:57
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dont even fink about it posted:Pretend I posted the RLM reviews here for the millionth time
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Dec 27, 2016 03:58
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how dare people post about movies they like those mother fuckers
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Dec 27, 2016 04:02
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I would put money that Felicity Jones will be in the Han Solo movie as crew.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:03
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ungulateman posted:You might be thinking of Episode 6, where Mon Mothma says "Many Bothans died to bring us this information". There's a (joke) Star Wars comic from before the reformation of the EU that hypothesises it was just one dude called Manny Bothans. That's what I was thinking of, thanks. Now that I've seen Rogue One, I don't think any Bothans actually died getting the plans?
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Dec 27, 2016 04:05
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The Grey posted:That's what I was thinking of, thanks. Many Bothans died getting the plans for the Death Star II, not the first one.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:08
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The Grey posted:That's what I was thinking of, thanks. Wrong Death Star.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:08
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ruddiger posted:Also legit interested how people can reconcile the prequel aliens as coded racist stereotypes while accepting human characters who carry those same qualities (rogue one) or aliens from the original trilogy (chuy, the Tusken Raiders and Jawas speaking straight up foreign languages) because... ~*like, y'know, whatever*~ reasons. Neimoidians are walking around with fake, vaguely Asian sounding accents, and being Fu Manchu if Fu Manchu were inept middle management. Who in Rogue one is at all equivalent to that? And for the love of god don't say "Well the characters with Asian actors were Asian-ing it up" because you don't hire a martial artist to not have him do martial arts. And I don't remember The Heavy being a Chinese stereotype, quite the opposite in fact. And in the original? I don't remember Jawaese or Tusken being based on any real life languages. Unless you're implying the fact that they don't speak English is equivalent. Which, I think, is silly. And, might I also add, it was a film in which the bad guys were a group of all human, all white, all male, space Nazis. Remember how I was talking about making your message clear to your audience? Episodes IV through VI had no problem with that. Hell, I through III didn't either when it came to its political message. Which is the main reason I don't buy this 'all the characters seen as racist caricatures are actually secretly subversions of racist caricatures.' Does that mean I think Lucas intentionally made a bunch of stereotypes because he's secretly racist? Hell no.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:11
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The Grey posted:That's what I was thinking of, thanks. The Bothans got the plans for the second death star.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:11
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Back on R1 discussion, did anyone else get the impression that Rogue One functions as a story on its own much better than The Force Awakens? Like R1 seems a moody caper about some rebels fighting a generic Empire who all eventually succeed but also receive the hero's reward of a tragic death, a la Magnificent 7. In that context, most of the direct references to the other Star Wars movies are just obscene interjections not really necessary to get the story. Whereas for TFA, like it or not, who can imagine watching that without having seen any other Star Wars movie?
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Dec 27, 2016 04:14
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Alien languages in Star Wars are created by taking an obscure human language, translating the line into it, transcribing it phonetically, and having a non-speaker deliver the transcription without hearing the original accent.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:15
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Adder Moray posted:And in the original? I don't remember Jawaese or Tusken being based on any real life languages. The Jawas speak Zulu. The Ewoks largely speak Tibetian. I don't know about the Tusken raiders, specifically.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:15
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The Grey posted:That's what I was thinking of, thanks. Second Death Star that fixed the glitch. For more info, the last expansion for TIE Fighter has a campaign called "The Bothan Connection" where you try to kill/kill the Many Bothans who stole the plans. Also I think X Wing Alliance shows it from the Alliance side.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:15
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Phi230 posted:Jesse Jackson? Patricia Williams? Al Sharpton? What were their arguments. Adder Moray posted:Messages should be stated at the level at which their intended recipients are generally receiving your work. Otherwise it's only so much masturbatory fluff. If the people you wrote a message for aren't getting it, who is the message for? There is nothing particularly 'subversive' about the Jar Jar character, and no-one has argued such a thing. "Jar Jar is supposed to be subversive" is something you made up, based on this notion that authorship involves hiding secret messages in things. (Internet arguments about authorial intent are almost-invariably based on a very poor understanding of the concepts 'authorship' and 'intention'. And that's to say nothing of the understanding of 'racism'.) Jar Jar is simply a human victim of racism. That is the uncomplicated truth - and truth is beyond (intended) meaning. The film Phantom Menace simply depicts a racist ideological universe and Jar Jar's place in it. There is no secret message. The Republic is brazenly racist, classist, etc. It is now up to you to interpret this imagery. YOU are the audience. You alone are responsible. If you conclude that Jar Jar is subhuman, you have chosen to embrace racist ideology. And this is in the context of a no-stakes fantasy. You were freed to react in any way imaginable, and you chose this. You did this. Don't use this imagined 'general populace' as a scapegoat, like "I'm not racist, but the general populace is racist, and I defer to them". That's an escape from your responsibility.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:20
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Adder Moray posted:Neimoidians are walking around with fake, vaguely Asian sounding accents, and being Fu Manchu if Fu Manchu were inept middle management. Who in Rogue one is at all equivalent to that? And for the love of god don't say "Well the characters with Asian actors were Asian-ing it up" because you don't hire a martial artist to not have him do martial arts. And I don't remember The Heavy being a Chinese stereotype, quite the opposite in fact. They're not subversions of stereotypes because they're not really following any stereotypes. "Bankers with giant hats" is not a prominent pan-Asian stereotype. "Sleazy slave-owning junk dealer in a wifebeater" is not a prominent anti-Semitic stereotype. Someone having a accent -- even a funny one -- does not make them a stereotype. An archetype, maybe.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:21
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Bongo Bill posted:Alien languages in Star Wars are created by taking an obscure human language, translating the line into it, transcribing it phonetically, and having a non-speaker deliver the transcription without hearing the original accent. So they completely disassociate it from the source so as to have something with an internal consistency that doesn't sound quite like anything? 1. I stand corrected but 2. That is the least justified someone has ever been in using "well, but, they're speaking another language so that's the equivalent to stereotyping" I've ever heard. Not only is it completely deconstructed, it's assigned to cultures with nothing in common with the stereotypes from which the original version of the language comes. (Yes, I'm aware you weren't the one saying that).
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Dec 27, 2016 04:21
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Personally I'd rather talk about how Rogue One's plot is "The Rebellion is ISIS and the Empire is American foreign policy." On a surface level the film is enjoyable, but on a social commentary level it's darkly hilarious, especially with callbacks that would seem like fanservice, but in fact are juxtaposition that tells you constantly "This is what Star Wars means," according to the film's proposition.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:25
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:What were their arguments. Oh? K. Waste posted:No he didn't. He drew upon his anecdotal frame of reference to reject a superficial reading of Jar-Jar's portrayal as implicitly negative and "subhuman." Why, hello there comment that prompted me to enter this discussion in the first place.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:25
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Arglebargle III posted:I like the guy who decided to police the seven hundred and seventy fifth page of a Star Wars discussion thread for being too nerdy because somebody mentioned a card game. Lol
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Dec 27, 2016 04:26
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Water Sheep posted:Back on R1 discussion, did anyone else get the impression that Rogue One functions as a story on its own much better than The Force Awakens? Like R1 seems a moody caper about some rebels fighting a generic Empire who all eventually succeed but also receive the hero's reward of a tragic death, a la Magnificent 7. In that context, most of the direct references to the other Star Wars movies are just obscene interjections not really necessary to get the story. Whereas for TFA, like it or not, who can imagine watching that without having seen any other Star Wars movie? Nah, rogue one heavily leans on the OT. Not for plot information, but for context. particularly for the force stuff and vader, where TFA goes to some lengths to explain things. Chirrut talks about a religion a bit and then hauls off and does impossible things. All of TFAS structural callbacks wouldn't be so obvious as to be jarring. They would just be scenes.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:28
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Mechafunkzilla posted:They're not subversions of stereotypes because they're not really following any stereotypes. "Bankers with giant hats" is not a prominent pan-Asian stereotype. "Sleazy slave-owning junk dealer in a wifebeater" is not a prominent anti-Semitic stereotype. Exactly. I'm not the one arguing that the characters in R1 and the original trilogy are coded racist stereotypes. I'm arguing that the the prequel characters are on the same footing as these characters. It's the people reaching for anything outside of what they deem as "acceptable" as "nope, that's racist!"
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Dec 27, 2016 04:31
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The author is dead unless its Ahmed Best. Then the author is hella alive.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:31
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dont even fink about it posted:Personally I'd rather talk about how Rogue One's plot is "The Rebellion is ISIS and the Empire is American foreign policy." On a surface level the film is enjoyable, but on a social commentary level it's darkly hilarious, especially with callbacks that would seem like fanservice, but in fact are juxtaposition that tells you constantly "This is what Star Wars means," according to the film's proposition. It's bringing Star Wars back to its roots as a tale of the heroic Vietcong fighting the American Empire, except the Vietcong are actually trying to take over the Empire and reinstate the Second Reich because this Third Reich clearly isn't working out.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:32
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They look like poo poo and are terribly boring. My wife saw RoTS for the first time after R1 and one of the first things she said was, "When was this made?" I looked it up, 2005 or whatever, and she said, "Shouldn't it look better? It's not that old." That's an overall impression. You can probably counter with some sick burns of single shots but so what? If the overall impression you have is "Wow, that looked like poo poo" which was my impression and the impression of many others when the movies came out and continuing to this day, then an individual "nice" shot doesn't really matter. Special effects are about creating more than the sum of their parts. Who cares if it is a matte painting, a model or a CGI effect? What matters is if it looks good and the Prequels are ugly, ugly movies. Likewise, she was bored. For all the "action" scenes, they are choreographed without any tension and in addition to looking like poo poo are terribly boring. The fight with Grevious and then later with Anakin might be fun to play in a video game but watching them is about as fun as watching someone play a video game. Lastly, they aren't fun. You can argue that they are supposed to be joyless. That's fine. But why on earth would I want a popcorn blockbuster to be an ugly, boring, joyless slog? Ugly movies can be good. Boring movies can be good. Joyless movies can be good. Put them all together? Real shitfest movies.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:33
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temple posted:The author is dead unless its Ahmed Best. Then the author is hella alive. It's telling that an altruistic thoughtful critique on the topic thoughtfully discoursed are met with your one line poo poo posts. Grow the gently caress up. ruddiger fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 04:33
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That reminds me of that article I don't want to link to that claims Rogue One is the most pro Trump movie that will ever be made. I found that hilarious because it was like, Rogue One makes both sides *SLIGHTLY* grey instead of black and white and congratulations people are failing a morality tale literally written with ten year olds in mind.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:36
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Shbobdb posted:Special effects are about creating more than the sum of their parts. Who cares if it is a matte painting, a model or a CGI effect? What matters is if it looks good I agree, and the prequels are gorgeous films.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:36
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PostNouveau posted:The Bothans got the plans for the second death star. Technically they got the location of the second death star and the information that the emperor would be there personally, not the plans :>
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Dec 27, 2016 04:37
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Shbobdb posted:They look like poo poo and are terribly boring. Who gives a poo poo about what you or your wife thought was boring? We're talking about movies we think are interesting. Wanting other people to "admit" that something they find interesting is actually boring is such a bizarre, narcissistic demand.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:38
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Schwarzwald posted:I agree, and the prequels are gorgeous films. I couldn't disagree more. To me and pretty much everyone I know, they look like hot loving garbage. The only guy who loved the aesthetic is a crazy artsy-fartsy type who pretty much only listens to Puccini, Nine Inch Nails and Japanese Goth poo poo. So his taste is . . . questionable at best.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:39
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Shbobdb posted:I couldn't disagree more. To me and pretty much everyone I know, they look like hot loving garbage. The only guy who loved the aesthetic is a crazy artsy-fartsy type who pretty much only listens to Puccini, Nine Inch Nails and Japanese Goth poo poo. So his taste is . . . questionable at best. Your opinion has been well-established. What do you want, a trophy? e: 
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Dec 27, 2016 04:42
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Shbobdb posted:I couldn't disagree more. To me and pretty much everyone I know, they look like hot loving garbage. The only guy who loved the aesthetic is a crazy artsy-fartsy type who pretty much only listens to Puccini, Nine Inch Nails and Japanese Goth poo poo. So his taste is . . . questionable at best. Yes, I know you disagree. You've said this many times. Is there anything else?
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Dec 27, 2016 04:44
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axeil posted:So I'm assuming Watto is the next most commonly cited one? Which others are there? And why are those ones bad while jar jar is not? Nute Gunray and, yeah, Watto. Watto: he's a money grubbing, hook-nosed shop owner with an accent that pushes it over the edge. "Mind tricks don't work on me; only money!" Nute Gunray (and the Nemoidians in general) are what a Dr. Suess propaganda piece would sound like if they could talk. They're straight up speaking Engrish in thick accents. People previously compared them to Chirrut and Baze, but they were speaking English with their natural accents. Nute was beyond a natural accent. Now, do I think Lucas and everyone else involved in the creation of these characters intentionally made racist/stereotyped portrayals of Jews or Japanese? No. I think they were trying to make some over the top characters and went too far. I find the characters cringe-worthy and too much on the stereotype scale. They are one of the reasons the movie, to me, is bad. You know how every now and then there's an ad or commercial that comes out, and everyone says "how did no one realize this was a bad idea?" That's the feeling I get when watching these characters. It's just amplified by a shitload because it's in a movie that is the return of one of the most popular movie franchises in history. I'm sure someone will tell me why I'm wrong, and I don't care. This film has been out and talked about for long enough that every reason for why it is(n't) racist has been covered. I'm going to watch the rest of the PT with the Rifftrax, within the next couple of days, and laugh at the jokes and how bad the movies are.
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Dec 27, 2016 04:45
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