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Doctor Malaver posted:
My social circle is mostly people in their late 20s and early 30s so we're certainly all millennials, but I really don't know how much that has to do with it. None of us grew up with smart phones and cell phones were only really widespread for us at the tail end of high school. The issue is that it really is just more convenient. You can browse the menu at your leisure, don't have to worry about your order being misunderstood, and you don't have to worry about writing down or remembering anything if you're doing a group order.
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Dec 27, 2016 16:11
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if millennials have the patience to navigate one of those loving phone mazes where they force you to talk to the robot that can't understand human speech, then God bless 'em.
A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 16:38
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I had to pay a bill over the phone with one of those because the website was broken. I wanted to stab my eyes out.
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Dec 27, 2016 16:42
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Everyone says this, nobody ever thinks about the reality of actually doing it. For one you'd better be able-bodied and young to even consider it, and a projected labor shortage in the future doesn't mean it's easy to get a job now - any given town can only support so many trade workers even if the nationwide tally is high. And realistically, even though boy do goons hate being asked to think about this stuff, those jobs are largely only open to men, and in a lot of places you'd better be white. It's an apprenticeship system too so if nobody will take you on you're poo poo out of luck. This career path gets gliby suggested so often I started making a point of asking every trade worker I meet how they got into the gig, and to a man they are all blood relatives of someone already doing it. Not really going to argue with most of your points. However these industries are evolving and compared to quite a few other fields at least have positive growth potential. True that needing to be able-bodied just comes with the job description, and woman participation is minuscule, but minority participation is better than many other fields(though this skews heavily toward Hispanic). The apprenticeship system is a double edged sword. It can make getting a job tricky as companies are tightly regulated on how many apprentices they can have. But on the other side if you get the job you get paid to learn, and completing your apprenticeship tends to have significant payroll benefits. I'll admit that construction isn't a labor panacea, but if you can get in the field and learn a craft then it can provide good job security and room for advancement that many other fields don't have. Tei posted:I dunno. Modular construction will always be a thing, but honestly construction projects are only growing in complexity every year with the development of sustainable living concepts, and energy efficiency goals. High density construction is also significantly more complex than low density modular, and high density construction continues to grab more market share.
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Dec 27, 2016 16:43
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SpaceCadetBob posted:Well if you goons are looking for long term job security from the singularity, may I recommend getting into a skilled mechanical construction trade? Skilled plumbers, electricians, HVAC, and fire protection installers are facing significant labor shortages in the coming years. Furthermore they are pretty much automation proof for the foreseeable future due to a combination of needing both organic problem solving abilities, and physical dexterity in complex and ever changing 3D environments. This is, like all liberal solutions at the end of the day, an individual solution to a systemic problem.
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Dec 27, 2016 16:49
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ok 'liberal' has finally lost all meaning if STEMlord horseshit counts
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Dec 27, 2016 17:01
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I'm sorry that you don't know what liberalism is but since you're posting on this forum I assume you have access to the Internet and can look it up, maybe you should do that!
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Dec 27, 2016 17:30
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:ok 'liberal' has finally lost all meaning if STEMlord horseshit counts
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Dec 27, 2016 17:33
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rscott posted:This is, like all liberal solutions at the end of the day, an individual solution to a systemic problem. Really in an ideal world this thread would be an opportunity; we are at a point where the global society can start rethinking work and begin providing for everyone like we've been able to for ages. Instead people are either arguing whether this is possible or trying to give advice for how to fight for the right to work lmao
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Dec 27, 2016 17:37
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Let's not get all "neoliberalism  " in here as well.Instead, let's look forward to your spouse finally being automated away as well: quote:At a conference last week called "Love and Sex with Robots" at Goldsmith University in London, David Levy, author of a book on human-robot love, made the bold prediction. And while some other experts were skeptical, Adrian Cheok, a professor at City University London and director of the Mixed Reality Lab in Singapore, supported Levy's idea. "That might seem outrageous because it's only 35 years away. But 35 years ago people thought homosexual marriage was outrageous," Cheok said. "Until the 1970s, some states didn't allow white and black people to marry each other. Society does progress and change very rapidly." http://fortune.com/2016/12/26/human-robot-love-marriage-relationships/
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Dec 27, 2016 18:03
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Not neoliberalism, liberalism in general. This is literally an issue of class politics at its core.
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Dec 27, 2016 18:06
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Asia has had resturants you self serve yourself plates of food then pay at the end by the number/type of plates you have forever and ever. There has never been a technological barrier to getting rid of waiters in restaurants. If restaurants dump them it's not because touch screens were some wild invention that let customers call orders out to the kitchen for the first time. This has been the opposite of my experience. What specific restaurants have you visited that are like this?
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Dec 27, 2016 21:02
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Uncle Jam posted:This has been the opposite of my experience. What specific restaurants have you visited that are like this? Dude went to a lot of Old Country Buffets on his Thailand trip?
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Dec 27, 2016 21:04
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:if millennials have the patience to navigate one of those loving phone mazes where they force you to talk to the robot that can't understand human speech, then God bless 'em. I have been told I have a pretty clear voice and I've played text adventures so I know how to keep it simple.  Sucks to be old and mumbly I guess?Alternatively I will do all your phone mazes for you at 50 cents a minute. Guaranteed to get you a live person or your task finished within 10 minutes or your money back!
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Dec 27, 2016 21:21
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SpaceCadetBob posted:Not really going to argue with most of your points. However these industries are evolving and compared to quite a few other fields at least have positive growth potential. True that needing to be able-bodied just comes with the job description, and woman participation is minuscule, but minority participation is better than many other fields(though this skews heavily toward Hispanic). Ignoring rscott's pointless slam at what he thinks "liberals" are, he's right about this being an individual solution. When you let reality in, what you're describing here is just a perfectly good job a specific person might be happy to have. But that's not how people are treating it - "go into the trades" is the new "go west, young man" - it's the only answer anyone ever posts for "hey I'm 20 and I owe, best-case scenario, several years worth of income to pay for this college education everyone told me to get, and there's no jobs out there, I don't think this system works." Even more stupidly, people trot this one out for what to do with the 50 year old factory workers whose jobs just left the country. A 50 year old doesn't just pick up and start over in a manual field, especially one with a long training stage, and even if they did nobody would take them on as an apprentice. And as much as it gets handwaved away (you at least agreed this is a thing, but then immediately ignored it), women need jobs too. There are far more female factory workers than female plumbers.
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Dec 27, 2016 22:48
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Even if people could just go down to the job store and pick out whatever new job they felt looked good when the old one expires, those shelves are bare; there's just plain orders of magnitude more people bereft of work in the fields they've got any particular qualifications for than there are entry-level positions for newbies in anything. Yeah, there's a good number of niche trades here and there each capable of supporting whole thousands of specialists, on the scale of America that means you might as well be exhorting people to buy the scratchoff and hope to make rent on that. At least that sucks up less investment of time and money before you find out you're not the lucky winner. We are not going to replace "the auto industry" with HVAC repair or PHP programming or sword swallowing, or even all three put together, not even if you personally got a job doing that.Ignatius M. Meen posted:I have been told I have a pretty clear voice and I've played text adventures so I know how to keep it simple. Creating jobs putting up with bureaucratic horseshit for people is the closest thing we've had yet to a viable trade substitute for the masses, but if you think I'm going to waste time on a wager that you'll only be on hold for ten minutes where I don't even get anything when I win, you're sorely misguided in your business model. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Dec 27, 2016 |
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Dec 27, 2016 22:59
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Ignatius M. Meen posted:I have been told I have a pretty clear voice and I've played text adventures so I know how to keep it simple. This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen anyone brag about.
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Dec 27, 2016 23:28
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Ignoring rscott's pointless slam at what he thinks "liberals" are, he's right about this being an individual solution. When you let reality in, what you're describing here is just a perfectly good job a specific person might be happy to have. But that's not how people are treating it - "go into the trades" is the new "go west, young man" - it's the only answer anyone ever posts for "hey I'm 20 and I owe, best-case scenario, several years worth of income to pay for this college education everyone told me to get, and there's no jobs out there, I don't think this system works." Well I apologize if my posts are adding to some gestalt 'go west young man' trifling of the challenges in the modern labor market. That was not my intent. I work in construction and see and hear a lot about the lack of apprentices so I simply thought I'd mention it. It really can be a great job choice for a 20 year old that wants a career path which often requires no previous experience. I'll be looking to hire an apprentice pretty soon, so I guess I should have the pick of the litter the way you make it sound.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:07
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:Creating jobs putting up with bureaucratic horseshit for people is the closest thing we've had yet to a viable trade substitute for the masses, but if you think I'm going to waste time on a wager that you'll only be on hold for ten minutes where I don't even get anything when I win, you're sorely misguided in your business model. I didn't throw in the *s that would crop up for actually staying on hold and/or pretending to be you so you wouldn't have to be involved in the actual call yourself instead of just either doing the machine maze or transferring you to the customer help line once I got there. I'm also not really a business major but I have sometimes wondered if I'd be able to make decent money out of that with someone who knows how to make a viable business model out of putting up with bureaucratic nonsense before it inevitably crashed when I had to hire other people and one of them started stealing customer data (credit/debit card info, social security numbers, addresses, work history, password recovery question answers... tons of poo poo people aren't expecting get used as verification material, there's no way around it for any business like this even assuming it's not considered outright illegal to begin with for intentionally falsifying the identity of the caller to gain access to someone else's records).
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Dec 28, 2016 00:19
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SpaceCadetBob posted:Well I apologize if my posts are adding to some gestalt 'go west young man' trifling of the challenges in the modern labor market. That was not my intent. I work in construction and see and hear a lot about the lack of apprentices so I simply thought I'd mention it. It really can be a great job choice for a 20 year old that wants a career path which often requires no previous experience. Again, you are focusing on the individual. It's nice you have a good idea for a twenty-year-old. I do too, have a specific job in my field that's got a low barrier to entry, steady pay, and a great stepping stone to a lot of different directions. When I meet twenty-year-olds interested in my field in real life I suggest this job and offer to help them get it. But you don't see legions of people posting "Just get a job in client services at a film studio" in the comments section of every article about the labor crisis, do you?
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Dec 28, 2016 00:32
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:Creating jobs putting up with bureaucratic horseshit for people is the closest thing we've had yet to a viable trade substitute for the masses, but if you think I'm going to waste time on a wager that you'll only be on hold for ten minutes where I don't even get anything when I win, you're sorely misguided in your business model. This is already a thing. It mostly takes the form of "personal assistant" remote/online work and it's almost always 1099 contract stuff. You can sign up to get paid some paltry amount to make reservations for people or cancel their cable service. There are actually a huge number of companies that offer this kind of work.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:35
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Not arguing any side here, just wanted to point out that while it is coming, automating the job of driving enormous heavy behemoths across the country is further away than we're pretending it is. Ignoring the genuine skill required to drive poorly turning house-long vehicles with a flex joint 1/3rd of the way down across our confusing, broken, hilly roads, the number of blind spots and situations requiring human judgement to avoid decimating a domino line of cars/people are numerous, and we're not at the point of technology 100% of the time detecting a human face in a quiet controlled environment, let alone at 30+ mph on distant figures and speeding cars in outside environments. The few novel clown-sized icars out on ideal surroundings still find wsys to crash. It's more likely that it will become similar to that of flight pilots; computers controlling basic direction and course correction, with human overseers to handle sensitive actions/intervene. Which will still be a huge problem because it gives the company more power to depress wages and bust unions.
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Dec 28, 2016 00:45
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Freakazoid_ posted:And won't you look at that, former McDonalds president/CEO Ed Rensi has been threatening the $15 minimum movement with replacing them with touch screen kiosks. I don't know how feasible that tech is yet, but there are some locations with a functioning kiosk and if they work well enough, someone at the company will run the numbers and see how much cheaper it is to have kiosks over cashiers. It could technically happen sooner if the national minimum was $15 an hour. every mcdonalds in america already has multiple touch screen kiosks. every fast food joint does, and 99% of restaurants do too. as of right now it makes sense to pay cashiers to interpret verbal orders into the kiosk rather than have customers do this directly, because we haven't come up with an efficient, idiot-proof user interface boner confessor fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 00:59
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boner confessor posted:every mcdonalds in america already has multiple touch screen kiosks. every fast food joint does, and 99% of restaurants do too. as of right now it makes sense to pay cashiers to interpret verbal orders into the kiosk rather than have customers do this directly, because we haven't come up with an efficient, idiot-proof user interface Similarly, grocery stores haven't found a way to have a self-checkout system that is hard to shoplift from that doesn't constantly lock up and ask for a cashier to help.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:33
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Neurolimal posted:Similarly, grocery stores haven't found a way to have a self-checkout system that is hard to shoplift from that doesn't constantly lock up and ask for a cashier to help. the problem is easier in that everything in a grocery store has a upc code. there's no single code for "a double cheesburger with lettuce, tomato, pickle, hold the mayo". i think that grocery stores see the labor savings as worth the cost of shoplifters, and statutorially for alcohol and stuff they need to have a human attendant to check your id the problem with fast food is that it needs to be fast or it loses its utility, and all foodservice thrives on throughput during peak demand times (aka "lunch/dinner rush") so you could easily be harming your business if the earlybird seniors cause a traffic jam trying to figure out a kiosk to order coffee at 6am boner confessor fucked around with this message at 02:40 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 02:38
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Apparent amazon go works very well and can't easily be fooled. Got to talk to someone who just got to check it out.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:51
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Neurolimal posted:Similarly, grocery stores haven't found a way to have a self-checkout system that is hard to shoplift from that doesn't constantly lock up and ask for a cashier to help. It works amazingly well in the UK somehow. I think the shoplifting problem is overstated in first world places. I know it could never work in Buenos Aires of course, the supermarkets would get cleaned out in a week by robbers, but in London it rules.
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Dec 28, 2016 02:53
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Pochoclo posted:It works amazingly well in the UK somehow. I think the shoplifting problem is overstated in first world places. I know it could never work in Buenos Aires of course, the supermarkets would get cleaned out in a week by robbers, but in London it rules. Self checkout is very prone to bottom of the basket theft especially when one employee is meant to watch 4-8 self checkouts. Personally I never understood why shoppers would even want self checkout. No savings are going to be passed onto the customer for eliminating cashiers. You then have to do the job of the cashier. Human cashiers also often know of all the deals and will apply them even without you being aware of them. This is especially great at stores that rely on coupons. With supermarkets you also have trained cashiers that know all the PLUs (this is also an opportunity for theft however, using a PLU associated with a lower cost per lb or item for a more expensive item) so you don't have to spend an hour looking up what green beans should be. The big advantage I see is that many stores wish to under staff cashiers so self checkout allows for more lines. Personally I will wait in line a bit and let someone else do the job rather than letting the store use me as labor.
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Dec 28, 2016 05:03
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Raldikuk posted:Self checkout is very prone to bottom of the basket theft especially when one employee is meant to watch 4-8 self checkouts. Personally I never understood why shoppers would even want self checkout. if you go to the store at odd hours or you only ever get a few things at a time it's basically an express line. i hardly ever use the human checkouts because you generally have to wait an extra 5-10 mins, and i typically end up at the store with a bored toddler
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Dec 28, 2016 05:34
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Raldikuk posted:Self checkout is very prone to bottom of the basket theft especially when one employee is meant to watch 4-8 self checkouts. Personally I never understood why shoppers would even want self checkout. No savings are going to be passed onto the customer for eliminating cashiers. You then have to do the job of the cashier. Human cashiers also often know of all the deals and will apply them even without you being aware of them. This is especially great at stores that rely on coupons. With supermarkets you also have trained cashiers that know all the PLUs (this is also an opportunity for theft however, using a PLU associated with a lower cost per lb or item for a more expensive item) so you don't have to spend an hour looking up what green beans should be. RE: bottom of the basket, the RFID system makes the alarm blare out when you exit, in that case. If you're going to go that far, just grab stuff and leave through the front door without going to any checkout - human or automated. Automated checkout changes nothing really, except making part of your exit trajectory a bit less suspicious. More often than not, in a first world city like London, you will have very very little actual shoplifting. RE: self checkout advantages: the line is wayyyy faster, and many people like me kinda hate dealing with other people so one less person to deal with in your day is an advantage. Even while buying alcohol, you just get the attendant to press the button, thank him and you're golden. I have never in my life made use of any coupons or deals or whatever, so I don't care about those. My (80+) retired parents however love that kind of poo poo, and hate automated anything, so I can see how it can be an issue of different strokes for different folks.
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Dec 28, 2016 06:20
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Self-checkout is nice when you only have a few things and sucks when you have a bunch of stuff. But I must have been hit in the head really hard for not hating standing in line to check out groceries or something.
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Dec 28, 2016 07:30
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RFID is kind of a joke since you just have to cut or break the strip and it wont go off, bottom-basket has the advantage of making you less conspicuous since you have a bag, receipt, and the greeter/guard isn't going to check your groceries against the slip. ...I was a poor kid and toys were expensive ok, don't judge me!
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Dec 28, 2016 07:35
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I develop machine learning tools professionally. Something thats starting to get some traction is 'meta learning' that is, using machine learning to develop new machine learning models. It's starting to get some industry use, especially in data mining. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10462-013-9406-y So the research into how to automate the process of automating things and then automatically implementing them is well underway. What can possibly go wrong?
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Dec 28, 2016 08:04
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Blockade posted:I develop machine learning tools professionally. Something thats starting to get some traction is 'meta learning' that is, using machine learning to develop new machine learning models. It's starting to get some industry use, especially in data mining. What can possibly go wrong? That camera that was racist. It detected white people faces, but not black people faces. It detected asians has people blinking. http://www.jozjozjoz.com/2009/05/13/racist-camera-no-i-did-not-blink-im-just-asian/
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Dec 28, 2016 09:18
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Raldikuk posted:Personally I never understood why shoppers would even want self checkout. No savings are going to be passed onto the customer for eliminating cashiers. Raldikuk posted:Self checkout is very prone to bottom of the basket theft especially when one employee is meant to watch 4-8 self checkouts.
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Dec 28, 2016 11:55
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Bottom of basket theft can be squashed by a more deliberate checkout design. Most counters are very poorly designed, cheap, hurt workflow and enable that behavior. A better design would be to prevent any carts from being able pass through checkout at all by having a separate pool of browsing and carry-out carts. People are vastly less likely to even attempt that if they have to very visibly pick up the items to transfer them, plus its easier to spot if they have the balls to try. Retail social engineering is about subtly persuading people into chattel-like behavior. Design to control but sell superficial 'freedom' of letting them perform the labor. D.Ork Bimboolean fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 13:24
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Just has a joke: Imagine a market where instead of the products, you walk trough walls of flat TV monitors and press a button on the screen showing the ad for the product you want to buy. Then you get to the exit, what you have buy is already paid and packaged in nice bags. I don't mean this is the future, this is only a joke. heres another joke.  (I don't necessarily agree with it) Tei fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 13:44
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You don't need to be hooked up to a power grid in order to use a smartphone and the market is utterly swamped with low cost, lovely but functional handsets. That comic was made quite a few years ago, at the time many still weren't convinced as to just how popular and affordable mobile computing would become, particularly in developing countries.
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Dec 28, 2016 15:03
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SwissCM posted:You don't need to be hooked up to a power grid in order to use a smartphone and the market is utterly swamped with low cost, lovely but functional handsets. That comic was made quite a few years ago, at the time many still weren't convinced as to just how popular and affordable mobile computing would become, particularly in developing countries. True that. I heard mobile computing is very popular in places like Africa, where maybe building a cable grid would be to complex and pointless, while setting the antena in some places and selling cheap phones make more sense for everyone involved. Anyway people have a computer in their pants but all they do is look at cat photos and reply to their aunt about a baby photo.  What has really changed on the world with people having all that computing power in their pockets?
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Dec 28, 2016 15:43
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Tei posted:True that. I heard mobile computing is very popular in places like Africa, where maybe building a cable grid would be to complex and pointless, while setting the antena in some places and selling cheap phones make more sense for everyone involved. The distributive productive aspect of social media has basically killed traditional journalism and print media, the consequences are writ large in who is the president elect of the United States of America
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Dec 28, 2016 16:05
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