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Octatonic posted:
Cool. I'll take a hypothetical number in the online open discussion thread. I'm brown, raised poor, mostly in Mexico by a single mother, and have faced plenty of prejudice, but please tell me more about how I'm acting privileged. Tried asking legit questions and got booed out. Y'all enjoy your exclusive thread.
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Dec 28, 2016 03:56
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Frijolero posted:Cool. I'll take a hypothetical number in the online open discussion thread. Jesus christ again with your loving feelings. You are not a feminist so it should not be this goddamn shocking to you that your demands are not a high priority in a feminist conversation. Do you go into hockey threads and throw fits about not liking hockey? And intersectionality exists you loving pigheaded moron. You might get "booed" less if you read a loving book once in a while.
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Dec 28, 2016 03:58
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legit tho this thread's going to be terrible if it goes from the feminist thread to the tiny brontosaurs repeatedly insults any and everyone who disagrees with them thread. please relax
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Dec 28, 2016 04:01
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What do some of you think about the gap between the second wave feminists and the third wave? Maybe I can make this more concrete. I'm married to a wonderful person educated as a feminist religion scholar. In our conversations on the subject she always seems to talk about a element of judgement and pressure from the second wave. Sort of a, if you don't strive for the job or the tenure and you have the ability to you are letting women down as a whole, even if what you want is something else. Is that a common experience?
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Dec 28, 2016 04:04
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boner confessor posted:legit tho this thread's going to be terrible if it goes from the feminist thread to the tiny brontosaurs repeatedly insults any and everyone who disagrees with them thread. please relax Thanks for your hot tip, noted feminist Popular Thug Drink. I've made more substantial posts in this thread than most people, but never mind any actual content, you've got a chance to scold a woman! BrandorKP posted:What do some of you think about the gap between the second wave feminists and the third wave? I have started to really hate the whole "wave" thing. It makes feminism sound like a monolith when it isn't - as was mentioned earlier, white feminism doesn't have much to do with the feminist activism of women of color, and the history of white feminism is not the history of feminism. Some women focus on breaking glass ceilings, which is good, some women focus on sexual politics, which is good, some women focus on domestic abuse, which is good, some women focus on representations of women in media, which is good. Saying "only focus on the thing I care about the most" is bad. Tiny Brontosaurus fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 04:10
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BrandorKP posted:What do some of you think about the gap between the second wave feminists and the third wave? i wonder how much of this can be separated from generational politics - my aunt was a super driven career woman who was always down on my cousin for her lack of ambition. i always saw it more as a boomer/gen-x thing expressed through feminist discussion rather than something wholly within feminist ideology Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Thanks for your hot tip, noted feminist Popular Thug Drink. I've made more substantial posts in this thread than most people, but never mind any actual content, you've got a chance to scold a woman! you're going to drive people out of this thread with your extensively documented history of being absurdly hostile to everyone you can be hostile towards and it'll be kind of fun to watch i mean you can frame me as "scolding a woman" if you want to avoid the responsibility of your own actions but i'm chiding you, personally, for vomiting your individual, personal anger management issues all over a discussion you allegedly care about and making it toxic
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Dec 28, 2016 04:10
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BrandorKP posted:What do some of you think about the gap between the second wave feminists and the third wave? I really really want to post about this, but it'll probably tomorrow, as I'm busy tonight. There is imo a strong personal vs class interest dialectic as feminist movements interacted and interact with each other. I personally can attest to a pretty frustrating feeling of gendered double bind with regards to my participation in activism, my obligations to my mental health, and my personal motivations and desires in life. While the personal is political, you've got obligations to yourself too, and poo poo is hard.
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Dec 28, 2016 04:19
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boner confessor posted:i wonder how much of this can be separated from generational politics - my aunt was a super driven career woman who was always down on my cousin for her lack of ambition. i always saw it more as a boomer/gen-x thing expressed through feminist discussion rather than something wholly within feminist ideology I am going to drive trolls out of this thread, yes I am. I've been around here for a good while now and do you know that I can't recall ever seeing you make a substantive post about a civil rights issue even once? The only thing I've ever seen you say, be it about BLM, feminism, LBGTQ rights, anything, is that the people working on those issues are doing it wrong. What you see as my "individual, personal anger" is actually actual thoughts I have that I put into words that you've never bothered to read once, because to you the world is divided into the obedient and the disobedient and you get to decide who's who. I think you hate civil rights talk so much because your ears always start burning.
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Dec 28, 2016 04:20
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boner confessor posted:legit tho this thread's going to be terrible if it goes from the feminist thread to the tiny brontosaurs repeatedly insults any and everyone who disagrees with them thread. please relax "going to"
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Dec 28, 2016 04:20
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I am going to drive trolls out of this thread, yes I am. I've been around here for a good while now and do you know that I can't recall ever seeing you make a substantive post about a civil rights issue even once? The only thing I've ever seen you say, be it about BLM, feminism, LBGTQ rights, anything, is that the people working on those issues are doing it wrong. What you see as my "individual, personal anger" is actually actual thoughts I have that I put into words that you've never bothered to read once, because to you the world is divided into the obedient and the disobedient and you get to decide who's who. I think you hate civil rights talk so much because your ears always start burning. yeah i could be a sexist racist misogyinst homophobe in your eyes but anyone who checks your rap sheet can see your history of going full on attack mode at the slightest criticism. i wont bother responding to you again because this is just going to go on in circles but ironically you're perpetuating some of the really bad behavior you criticize others for because of a general inability/lack of desire to keep your hostility in check, and i'm really taking the time to point this out as a Public Service for people who would otherwise like to participate in the discussion
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Dec 28, 2016 04:22
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I've been around here for a good while now and do you know that I can't recall ever seeing you make a substantive post about a civil rights issue even once? Same. Other then you using civil rights as a bludgeon.
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Dec 28, 2016 04:25
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boner confessor posted:yeah i could be a sexist racist misogyinst homophobe in your eyes but anyone who checks your rap sheet can see your history of going full on attack mode at the slightest criticism. i wont bother responding to you again because this is just going to go on in circles but ironically you're perpetuating some of the really bad behavior you criticize others for because of a general inability/lack of desire to keep your hostility in check, and i'm really taking the time to point this out as a Public Service for people who would otherwise like to participate in the discussion TB is cool and good and has posted some really amazing things so far that have been discussed substantially (see: The Politics of Housework) Meanwhile, judging by the hilarious racism and weird attack dogging you've got in your rap sheet, perhaps you may want to pull that two by four out of your eye first.
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Dec 28, 2016 04:26
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icantfindaname posted:"going to" TB might go too hard out sometimes but she's coming from a decent place, whereas it would be extremely cool and good if you would just go get hit by a bus, thanks (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 28, 2016 04:43
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Sharkie posted:
quote:Because man is transcendence and ambition, he projects new demands with each new tool: after having invented bronze instruments, he was no longer satisfied with developing gardens and wanted instead to clear and cultivate vast fields. [66] Tiny Brontosaurus posted:I think a big thing about Trump, any aspect of his success, is that he was just more than we were prepared for. You can build a ten-foot floodwall but if a twenty-foot wave comes you're hosed. The things he said and did were so outrageous that our usual process of tut-tutting in the press wasn't sufficient. We couldn't create a sense of scale to illustrate how much worse he was than a normal candidate, especially to conservative voters who are used to hearing everyone's Stalin-Osama-Hitler. quote:One of the reasons sex-positivity is a big deal in feminism even though it makes the marxoteens screech with fury is that a world that can't imagine women ever desire sex is a world where women are not safe. There's no way to explain that a woman didn't want sex if your worldview tells you women never want sex. That reduces rape to a question of whether the woman "belonged" to the man or not. Recognizing and learning to articulate your desire helps you articulate the lack of it too. I've struggled with this the opposite way too. Like, I rarely to never get catcalled. But I believe women when they say they do regularly, and I see it happening to others. So if men want sex all the time, then I must be really unattractive somehow if they don't bother catcalling me. If men are supposed to want sex all the time, then this man not wanting to have sex with me (even though he seems to enjoy my company other ways) must mean there's something wrong with me.
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Dec 28, 2016 04:46
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I would also like to add that I had a major feminist awakening when I caught the tail end of the LF feminism thread and saw that it consisted of men trying to shout down women about how wrong they were and the women couldn't get a word in edgewise. In their own thread. So that served a purpose.
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Dec 28, 2016 04:48
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Jesus christ again with your loving feelings. You are not a feminist so it should not be this goddamn shocking to you that your demands are not a high priority in a feminist conversation. Do you go into hockey threads and throw fits about not liking hockey? You're once again trying to chase out everyone who has the slightest disagreement with you, even if you share 99.9% of the same opinions. Asking questions of TB, or challenging something TB says, or disagreeing with TB, isn't inherently trolling or bigotry. Pretending that it is destroys the chance of discussion/learning happening in this thread. I think you post plenty of valuable stuff, and you're pretty much always on the 'right' side of a given issue, but the constant abuse, calls to suicide etc. can't keep happening. This isn't an issue of 'civility', it's an issue of totally disproportionate reactions that make (genuine) people afraid to post in case they accidentally disagree with you. I'm going to quote Ozma here, because her description of your posting from nearly four years ago is still spot-on: Debbie Metallica posted:I let you go for several pages because I actually agreed with the fact that what was originally said was dumb and deserved to be called out, which is what I said previously too, but you've already indicated that you're putting people on ignore and apparently intend to hound everyone in here anytime they post so I'm stuck. I've also received a slew of PMs today asking that I do something about this, because it is a repeated problem and people are now asking me why an admin is just sitting there watching this unfold over and over without putting a stop to it. ate poo poo on live tv posted:Seems like a lot of projection on your part tbqh. Don't post in this thread
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Dec 28, 2016 04:55
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Defenestration posted:I've been thinking about the gish gallop a lot lately. Trump and his ilk absolutely gish galloped every time they opened their mouths, so by the time you've responded to one horrible thing they've said 10 more. It's not helped by the fact that Americans have regularly called people they disagree with Nazis for a long time now. So when someone with actual fascist tendencies strolls in, people aren't listening because the boy cried wolf too many times. Besides, Trump isn't Adolf Hitler anyway. He's obviously Silvio Berlusconi with nukes.
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Dec 28, 2016 05:00
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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2017 exmarx posted:You're once again trying to chase out everyone who has the slightest disagreement with you, even if you share 99.9% of the same opinions. Asking questions of TB, or challenging something TB says, or disagreeing with TB, isn't inherently trolling or bigotry. Pretending that it is destroys the chance of discussion/learning happening in this thread. I think you post plenty of valuable stuff, and you're pretty much always on the 'right' side of a given issue, but the constant abuse, calls to suicide etc. can't keep happening. This isn't an issue of 'civility', it's an issue of totally disproportionate reactions that make (genuine) people afraid to post in case they accidentally disagree with you. Tb isn't slashie, and her posts have been helpful and productive in this thread. Where in this thread has she told anyone to kill themselves? Have you considered kicking out the trolls instead and getting more mods for d&d?
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Dec 28, 2016 05:03
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I for one am perfectly comfortable with Tiny Brontosaurus openly calling out shitposters. Let's not pretend they entered in good faith, particularly when you see the same names trotting out the same tired poo poo they trotted out in every other thread regarding some aspect of minority rights in recent history.
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Dec 28, 2016 05:05
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Vindicator posted:I for one am perfectly comfortable with Tiny Brontosaurus openly calling out shitposters. Let's not pretend they entered in good faith, particularly when you see the same names trotting out the same tired poo poo they trotted out in every other thread regarding some aspect of minority rights in recent history. drat straight. It's bizarre to me that people obviously doing nothing but trying to poo poo up the thread get passed by in silence but the person posting relevant, interesting content gets the stern talking-to.
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Dec 28, 2016 05:11
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Vindicator posted:I for one am perfectly comfortable with Tiny Brontosaurus openly calling out shitposters. Let's not pretend they entered in good faith, particularly when you see the same names trotting out the same tired poo poo they trotted out in every other thread regarding some aspect of minority rights in recent history. The problem isn't her calling out shitposters, it's her treating people who are posting in good faith as if they are shitposters. stone cold posted:Tb isn't slashie, and her posts have been helpful and productive in this thread. Where in this thread has she told anyone to kill themselves? Have you considered kicking out the trolls instead and getting more mods for d&d? Why would I say she was Slashie unless I knew she was?
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Dec 28, 2016 05:11
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2017 exmarx posted:The problem isn't her calling out shitposters, it's her treating people who are posting in good faith as if they are shitposters. Read the OP exmarx, we're not here to do frijolero's homework, and if he can't read any of the links in the OP he's not acting in good faith. Also, this weird slashie obsession thing is really strange as hell.
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Dec 28, 2016 05:14
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Vindicator posted:I for one am perfectly comfortable with Tiny Brontosaurus openly calling out shitposters. Let's not pretend they entered in good faith, particularly when you see the same names trotting out the same tired poo poo they trotted out in every other thread regarding some aspect of minority rights in recent history.  If anything it should be obvious that the presumption of good faith for all posters crumbles instantly whenever there's a public discussion regarding minority rights and discrimination. 2017 exmarx posted:Why would I say she was Slashie unless I knew she was? It's insanely weird, of you, to stick to this tack especially because you have insisted in the past that she isn't
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Dec 28, 2016 05:18
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Defenestration posted:I would also like to add that I had a major feminist awakening when I caught the tail end of the LF feminism thread and saw that it consisted of men trying to shout down women about how wrong they were and the women couldn't get a word in edgewise. In their own thread. Same. I've read this site since I was 16ish and then got an account when I finally got my own debit card. I think I read and got turned onto feminism by the same exact thread as you. I remember reading it out of boredom, seeing ideas that challenged my teenage kid beliefs and getting upset/annoyed, but kept reading and ultimately ended up being convinced. I remember some old posters I still see here like Joementum, Powercrazy, and Fauxton but sadly don't seem to see anyone from that feminism thread still posting on here. It is something I was thankful for tho.
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Dec 28, 2016 05:22
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Vindicator posted:I for one am No one cares.
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Dec 28, 2016 05:26
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:No one cares. Thanks for your shitpost, any cool effortposts to add about feminism? No? Please leave.
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Dec 28, 2016 05:28
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Mixodorian posted:Same. I've read this site since I was 16ish and then got an account when I finally got my own debit card. I think I read and got turned onto feminism by the same exact thread as you. I would never have said I wasn't a feminist, but those older threads expanded my definition of what feminism encompasses, and revealed a lot of problems that I just hadn't experienced or hadn't been able to define. It's like the joke DFW told in his commencement address. quote:There are these two young fish swimming along and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says "Morning, boys. How's the water?" And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes "What the hell is water?"
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Dec 28, 2016 05:39
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Water is, for example, a very otherwise well-meaning male friend and colleague interrupting my presentation to say literally the thing I was going to say next. Water is those men in the study Sharkie mentioned where they thought women dominated the conversation when they spoke 30% of the time. When we point these out, we're not pointing fingers. Hell, even I didn't notice many of those pernicious little things. So gentlemen, one thing you can do to be an ally is if you are in a meeting or another work situation where a woman says something and then a man tries to say the same thing later without giving her credit (whether he's doing it on purpose or not), chime in with "yeah I agree, like Susan said, XXXX" You can deliberately solicit women's opinions, and not just on "women's issues." You can SHUT UP for a second and let women finish what they were saying before you weigh in. And, while you're there, consider if it's really crucial that you weigh in or not in a given situation.
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Dec 28, 2016 05:52
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Jeez, it seems like threads with controversial topics like this one, mostly consist of people arguing over stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the thread topic. Like the only time people can have a productive debate and exchange of ideas is when everybody already agrees.
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Dec 28, 2016 06:06
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2017 exmarx posted:You're once again trying to chase out everyone who has the slightest disagreement with you, even if you share 99.9% of the same opinions. Asking questions of TB, or challenging something TB says, or disagreeing with TB, isn't inherently trolling or bigotry. Pretending that it is destroys the chance of discussion/learning happening in this thread. I think you post plenty of valuable stuff, and you're pretty much always on the 'right' side of a given issue, but the constant abuse, calls to suicide etc. can't keep happening. This isn't an issue of 'civility', it's an issue of totally disproportionate reactions that make (genuine) people afraid to post in case they accidentally disagree with you. I'm going to risk posting in this thread to make a probably silly suggestion. Why not just make it a thread rule for here and for the thread FAU made that prohibits excessive ad hominem, name calling, insulting etc.? It's pretty awful that you have people being abrassive to the degree that the theme of the thread is to shout down, insult, etc. other posters who they claim are not being sincere. It makes having any discussion nearly impossible. OK that's my two cents, I'll let this thread get back to the main discussion at hand.
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Dec 28, 2016 06:09
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-Blackadder- posted:Jeez, it seems like threads with controversial topics like this one, mostly consist of people arguing over stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the thread topic. Like the only time people can have a productive debate and exchange of ideas is when everybody already agrees. If you can't agree to the bare minimum baseline of equal rights, than you might not be a productive poster here. There's room for an incredible amount of contention in feminism: just off the top of my head, raunch culture and the inheritors of Dworkin and MacKinnon vs. sex-positive feminism. Intersectional issues and the struggle of POC women to be heard. Everybody vs. TERFs.
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Dec 28, 2016 06:19
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Make TB IK for the scope of this thread only, but disallow her to name-call in it. Less vitriol, but shitposters still get forcibly shut up.
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Dec 28, 2016 06:22
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Colin Mockery posted:Make TB IK for the scope of this thread only, but disallow her to name-call in it. Less vitriol, but shitposters still get forcibly shut up. Sorry, as Slashie I'm much too busy killing all men and... I think she ate a baby once?
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Dec 28, 2016 06:35
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stone cold posted:There's room for an incredible amount of contention in feminism: just off the top of my head, raunch culture and the inheritors of Dworkin and MacKinnon vs. sex-positive feminism. Intersectional issues and the struggle of POC women to be heard. Everybody vs. TERFs. Here's some other long-running conversations: How to address the problems of motherhood, both in unshackling women from what de Beauvior sees posed as biological destiny, and truly supporting and cherishing mothers (Rebecca Walker did some great work on the latter). How do we square this with the issues of reproductive labor in general? Gender as a system of social control and organization vs gender as expression and identity. The function, role, and "naturalness" of feminine coded behaviors and the performance thereof. Liberal, incremental, and radical approaches to attacking patriarchy/the advancement of women/the bringing of gender equality/the abolition of gender. whether men should be eliminated entirely, minimized, or merely subjugated Octatonic fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 06:47
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stone cold posted:If you can't agree to the bare minimum baseline of equal rights, than you might not be a productive poster here. I assume you're referring to the general "you" (as in people in general) since just up thread I'm the one who attempted to the end the derail by suggesting a more relevant topic like how feminism, the 2016 election, and the current state of gender politics in the country relate to one another. Regardless, like others have said, the thread would just be much more readable without all the back and forth bickering.
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Dec 28, 2016 08:15
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-Blackadder- posted:I assume you're referring to the general "you" (as in people in general) since just up thread I'm the one who attempted to the end the derail by suggesting a more relevant topic like how feminism, the 2016 election, and the current state of gender politics in the country relate to one another. I agree, all the trolls should be kicked out, that would end the bickering.
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Dec 28, 2016 08:21
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I think that the reason people so often fail to understand the problem with men dominating discussions like this is that they're looking at things from the perspective of just themselves and not seeing the big picture. Like, in a world without the context of men dominating these discussions, it's true that being told to be quiet would be rude and unnecessary, but in practice (especially on a forum like this where most people are men) if you just let everyone say whatever you want you will naturally end up with literally every discussion consisting mostly of men. There isn't really any alternative way for women (or other minority groups) to keep the focus of a discussion on them other than proactively preventing anyone who threatens to derail the discussion from participating. So basically it's a Catch 22 where the only two options are "not be able to carry out a focused discussion" and "be perceived as rude." There isn't really any way to politely address everyone and still keep the discussion focused.
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Dec 28, 2016 09:41
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In any case it's very welcome that we have an alternate thread so all those genuine questioners can have their problems discussed. It will be interesting to see whether or not all those good-faith posters like icantfindaname and Black Baby Goku continue to contribute, given their concerns are so honestly held.
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Dec 28, 2016 10:08
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2017 exmarx posted:Why would I say she was Slashie unless I knew she was? oh my god who gives a shiiiiit how is old-rear end forums drama even relevant to these threads here and now, where TB is one of the few people actively contributing good content
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Dec 28, 2016 10:13
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Good feminist allies at least put in effort to research stuff regarding feminism instead of bogging people down with a hundred questions that have answers easily available. What tends to happen is people exhaust themselves answering questions that never stop coming. Everyday feminism is a good resource. Feministing is good too. Bad feminist by Roxane Gay is a great book to read that covers a variety of topics.
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Dec 28, 2016 13:09
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