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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:So when can we start calling out fair-weather allys? That would be a oxymoron because Fair Weather is in the definition of LGBT ally.
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Dec 28, 2016 17:36
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Hollismason posted:That would be a oxymoron because Fair Weather is in the definition of LGBT ally. You mean I can't rely on the basic white girl who thinks she's an ally because she and her gay bestie check out cute boys together and watched Sex and the City? 
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Dec 28, 2016 17:38
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Always call out fair weather allies
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Dec 28, 2016 18:33
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:You mean I can't rely on the basic white girl who thinks she's an ally because she and her gay bestie check out cute boys together and watched Sex and the City? Do you want her chatting you up at the sit in, and then throwing a tantrum when she gets handcuffed and led away? Because you know that last part is going to be what makes the news.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:30
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Hollismason posted:That would be a oxymoron because Fair Weather is in the definition of LGBT ally. You heard it here first folks, everything LGBT people have accomplished they did all by themselves with no help or support! Like, calling out assholes is fine, good, and necessary, but I've never understood the line of self-righteous thinking that led my campus LGBT group to have a whole meeting about how allies suck.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:35
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tell us more about your campus lgbt group
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Dec 28, 2016 21:40
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It does not entirely gel with the concept of LGBT either, as necessarily that is a coalition of allies, because the issues that face L G B and T people are not the same.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:41
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my best friend is p cool about lgbt stuff but sure all straight people suck whatever man
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Dec 28, 2016 21:49
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I'm not saying g LGBT allies haven't contributed to the movement but generally they want the LGBT community to be rather sterile and the way it looks as well. Like their idea is that the couple from Modern Family or Will from Will and Grace or the myriad etc.. examples. Allies are great but the majority will peace the gently caress out if things don't fit into those preconceived notions Allies have done tremendous work but the majority are fair weather. It does not cost anyone anything to say I'm supporting LGBT rights.
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Dec 28, 2016 21:49
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Hollismason posted:Allies have done tremendous work but the majority are fair weather. It does not cost anyone anything to say I'm supporting LGBT rights. This is the key part. They are "fair weather" by design because they can stop being an ally at any point and it has absolutely no impact on their legal status or civil rights. They're good. Before I knew I was LGBT, I was an ally. I knew those people were being treated badly and it was wrong, but if the laws didn't change, if people were being arrested for being homosexual, denied bathroom access for being trans, well, that was terrible, but did not hurt me. Yes, I was worried and, yes, I loved people and friends who were impacted, but I could walk away and be seen as a cis, straight, white, middle-class, Christian male; you know, God Mode. But. That was more than 20 years ago. I admitted I was bisexual. That was okay. If things got bad, I could just "choose" to only be with non-controversial partners and not mention how attractive I found the problematic ones. Then I realized I was transgender. That was terrible. Now I had no choice but to be noticed. I could no longer have the luxury of hiding if I wanted to. I could no longer be an ally. I was in this poo poo now, and I lose sleep over it. Yeah, I pass well enough so everybody just assumes I'm a cis-woman. But, I'm married to a cis-woman. Either way, we are outed as abnormal and only recently socially acceptable. When my being transgender was first diagnosed, I was a loving idiot about all of this stuff. I grew up not even understand how homosexual relationships work because "who's the man and who's the woman." These are your allies. I didn't learn until I had to because what was the point? Of course, some allies may be masters of understanding and experts on everything from a psychological and sociological standpoint. So, what? Didn't we call out Rachel Dolezal, a white lady trying to pass for black, for leading a chapter of the NAACP? Were there any complaints about her leadership before that came out, any questions about her qualifications? Allies are absolutely necessary. Absolutely. But without actual LGBT people playing a leading role or at least a guiding role, what they are wiling to fight for may not be what we actually need.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:03
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Sure, there's just no point in bitching about all your allies being fair-weather cowards or whatever if it's just a natural normal thing with no value judgment implied. If people are just venting their frustrations about dumb people they've met lately by using broad generalizations then whatever, people have to vent I guess. More to the point, LGBT as a concept doesn't make any sense at all if allies are dumb and bad because LGB and T aren't even the same thing; there's nothing innate linking us except being good allies to each other (and let's not pretend that's even the case much of the time).
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Dec 28, 2016 22:43
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Aleph null makes good points in a good post.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:09
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What' the opposite of fair weather? Because I had an irl ally friend pull the opposite on me. She was so overzealous in her "principled support" that she veered off into accelerationist Trump-land just so she could always be fighting the good fight for us. It was a very frustrating and  experience.
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Dec 29, 2016 00:12
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Quorum posted:Sure, there's just no point in bitching about all your allies being fair-weather cowards or whatever if it's just a natural normal thing with no value judgment implied. If people are just venting their frustrations about dumb people they've met lately by using broad generalizations then whatever, people have to vent I guess. Actually we're all connected by the rigid culture of gender norms and sexism the govern what we can do and be in hetero-cis culture. That's queer/feminist theory 101, and if you want a good measure of who is and isn't a valuable ally, then look for people who understand that and are motivated to work for change on all fronts because a victory anywhere serves to weaken the system as a whole.
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Dec 29, 2016 00:16
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Cocks Cable posted:What' the opposite of fair weather? Storm comrade? ThaumPenguin fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 00:19
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Cocks Cable posted:What' the opposite of fair weather? Because I had an irl ally friend pull the opposite on me. She was so overzealous in her "principled support" that she veered off into accelerationist Trump-land just so she could always be fighting the good fight for us. It was a very frustrating and  Your friend is an idiot.
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Dec 29, 2016 00:25
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I think the term is Zealous ToTo
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Dec 29, 2016 00:27
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hero complex
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Dec 29, 2016 00:45
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Superfriend* *except when it comes to Drag Kings , Leather Men, Daddies, Dykes, and anything that makes them uncomfortable or if like you could lose your job for being friends with the gays.
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Dec 29, 2016 00:49
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Cocks Cable posted:What' the opposite of fair weather? Because I had an irl ally friend pull the opposite on me. She was so overzealous in her "principled support" that she veered off into accelerationist Trump-land just so she could always be fighting the good fight for us. It was a very frustrating and The opposite term for a fair weather friend is an all weather friend.  Quorum posted:Sure, there's just no point in bitching about all your allies being fair-weather cowards or whatever if it's just a natural normal thing with no value judgment implied. If people are just venting their frustrations about dumb people they've met lately by using broad generalizations then whatever, people have to vent I guess. Don't really agree with the last part, sure we each have our own sets of unique difficulties and obstacles but the root cause is the same. We're all judged and occasionally victimised for not conforming to socially accepted behavioural norms.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:13
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ThaumPenguin posted:Storm comrade? yea, right out in the storm's front even
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Dec 29, 2016 07:15
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I'm just saying there's us and there is them. That's all.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:25
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Baka-nin posted:
That's true, but the lgb is still separate from the t, they're different things, with different issues they have to deal with. Shoot, even the l, g and b are allies in that sense. Lesbians have different concerns fun gay men who have different concerns for bisexuals.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:00
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Especially bisexuals, I experience literally none of the issues that gay and lesbian people do because I have an opposite sex partner. Socially I am barely distinguishable from a heterosexual, so by that logic I am most definitely in the ally category.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:08
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It's all very complicated. There certainly can be animosity between the members of the LGBT coalition and some members rights have been set aside at times. But I would feel that we are bound together by more than just the fact that we face oppression. I mean as a trans woman any relationship I have could be seen as either gay or lesbian, can't win there. 
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Dec 29, 2016 15:19
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We all have different needs, but it's the exact same institutions recycling the exact same arguments in an endless shell game to vilify all of us. So it makes sense to stand as united as we can be against that front, no matter how different we are or variations in our sub-groups' progress. Mormons and catholics may have softened their rhetoric in the US toward gays after their marriage equality embarrassment, but both institutions spent millions to fight gay marriage in Mexico. They will happily ramp up their rhetoric against any of our sub-groups at any time, if it didn't affect their bottom line. Back in the day we needed tight-knit populated communities for our safety. And we needed our own newspapers because even when there wasn't outright censorship of anything gay or trans, there was self-censorship. We needed to know which cops you shouldn't call, for fear of being beaten, shaken down, or just ignored. And we needed to know which businesses would actually serve us. If we didn't have that oppression, being gay or trans would be no more distinct than having blue or brown eyes. The internet has actually made a lot of that easier(thank god), and I hope that doesn't dilute our community too much.
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Dec 29, 2016 18:12
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[quote="Eimi" post="467804600"] I mean as a trans woman any relationship I have could be seen as either gay or lesbian, can't win there. [/quote. Same here, I feel ya, it kinda sucks. We're gay regardless of who we're in a relationship with 
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Dec 29, 2016 18:54
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I really want someone to actually say what disparate interests the G, L, B, and T have that make joint political action ridiculous instead of just acting like it's an accepted truth.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:36
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I don't really see any legitimate issues that bi people have that are politically solveable.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:41
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there wolf posted:I really want someone to actually say what disparate interests the G, L, B, and T have that make joint political action ridiculous instead of just acting like it's an accepted truth. None, the point is that it requires a conscious willingness to understand the needs of others which may differ from yours, those needs are not, or should not be obstructive to your own needs, but it still requires you to support people in their own pursuit of liberation when it may have no benefit to you. As any good political union should.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:44
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Bethamphetamine posted:We all have different needs, but it's the exact same institutions recycling the exact same arguments in an endless shell game to vilify all of us. So it makes sense to stand as united as we can be against that front, no matter how different we are or variations in our sub-groups' progress. Mormons and catholics may have softened their rhetoric in the US toward gays after their marriage equality embarrassment, but both institutions spent millions to fight gay marriage in Mexico. They will happily ramp up their rhetoric against any of our sub-groups at any time, if it didn't affect their bottom line. I'd rather have the oppression gone and deal with community dilution than be oppressed for something that is just as genetic as having blue or brown eyes.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:47
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OwlFancier posted:None, the point is that it requires a conscious willingness to understand the needs of others which may differ from yours, those needs are not, or should not be obstructive to your own needs, but it still requires you to support people in their own pursuit of liberation when it may have no benefit to you. As any good political union should. Consider, for instance, how in certain time periods male homosexuality was criminal but female homosexuality wasn't. As a result, lesbians could choose to live pretty much unmolested by the law and ignore the problems gay men were having. That would of course be a very gently caress you got mine approach to life.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:52
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stone cold posted:I'd rather have the oppression gone and deal with community dilution than be oppressed for something that is just as genetic as having blue or brown eyes. I think we all would. But since we're such a small group combined with there being a marketplace in politics, televangelism, and talk radio for stoking violence against us for profit, we will always need a strong cooperative organized political machine and community to ensure that we receive the basic needs most other populations take for granted.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:25
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OwlFancier posted:None, the point is that it requires a conscious willingness to understand the needs of others which may differ from yours, those needs are not, or should not be obstructive to your own needs, but it still requires you to support people in their own pursuit of liberation when it may have no benefit to you. As any good political union should. Indeed, and in that regard the only glue is that we are good allies to one another, either out of empathy or rational self-interest or because we realize that injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere. This is precisely the same attitude a good ally of any sort has towards those they are supporting, and recognizing that not everyone has the same amount of personal buy-in shouldn't be some sort of moral judgement upon them. I'm glad some people would be fine even if everything went horribly wrong for me and others like me; I just fight so that won't happen.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:56
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Mr. Nice! posted:I don't really see any legitimate issues that bi people have that are politically solveable. Do you see any issues for gay people or are bi people in gay relationships somehow immune to those issues?
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Dec 30, 2016 02:06
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Taitale posted:Do you see any issues for gay people or are bi people in gay relationships somehow immune to those issues? Bi people in a gay relationship have gay issues, not bi issues. Sure there is social stigma and other things that bi people may feel, however there isn't a single political issue exclusive to them, and solving the problems on the G and L side of things tend to solve any bi issues.
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Dec 30, 2016 02:13
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Mr. Nice! posted:Bi people in a gay relationship have gay issues, not bi issues. Sure there is social stigma and other things that bi people may feel, however there isn't a single political issue exclusive to them, and solving the problems on the G and L side of things tend to solve any bi issues. Does it solve people thinking we don't exist?
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Dec 30, 2016 02:17
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Mr. Nice! posted:Bi people in a gay relationship have gay issues, not bi issues. Sure there is social stigma and other things that bi people may feel, however there isn't a single political issue exclusive to them, and solving the problems on the G and L side of things tend to solve any bi issues. You're not wrong but you're about to find out why we don't talk about these things.
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Dec 30, 2016 02:19
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stone cold posted:Does it solve people thinking we don't exist? Does this really matter, tho? Like, it's just an opinion, as long as we get legal protections, who gives a crap? I'm bi.
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Dec 30, 2016 02:43
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Thalantos posted:Does this really matter, tho? Like, it's just an opinion, as long as we get legal protections, who gives a crap? Yes, yes, it matters
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Dec 30, 2016 02:48
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