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Aliens deceived me because I was expecting them to be good soldiers. Not idiot ones. SMH bad lazy awful writing. At least milburn was told his space suit was impenetrable, unlike those stupid moronic soldiers with exposed skin.
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Dec 28, 2016 15:53
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MacheteZombie posted:Aliens deceived me because I was expecting them to be good soldiers. Not idiot ones. SMH bad lazy awful writing. The soldiers in Aliens are shown as being cocky, overconfident, and overly reliant on their technology, but they don't do anything profoundly dumb like we see in Prometheus (and when they almost do, other characters call them out on it). Just a reminder: I like Prometheus. I just think it's silly to say Aliens has "dumber characters".
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Dec 28, 2016 16:02
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Xenomrph posted:Him getting lost isn't the problem, it's that he doesn't even acknowledge having the map that he himself was creating. It'd have been trivially easy to fix with 2 lines of dialogue: The way I feel about this kind of thing is that if anyone can just write a line or two of dialogue to explain it, it probably didn't need to be explained. We don't follow Milburne and Fifield for their entire time inside the ship, if they could have used the mapping drones to find a way out they would have. They didn't so they couldn't for some reason, probably the exact one you thought of, or maybe the drones take a while to complete their work(its shown in the movie that this is the case). Who cares what the specific explanation is, they stumbled into a very dangerous room and got killed, end of story.
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Dec 28, 2016 16:06
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Those are descriptors you can use for the characters of Prometheus as well. The claim that the characters are extra dumb is what I'm taking issue with here. Dude let's his pups out and howls, like a cocky buffoon. They get high while hiding because it'll take the edge off, lowering their ability to think clearly. Milburn's suit is described as state of the art and super protective to the point of invulnerable. Milburn clearly wants to befriend Fifield and after seeing him freak out at the snake does his best NatGeo impression. These aren't dumb bad lazy writing examples. I like all the alien movie, yes, including resurrection.
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Dec 28, 2016 16:21
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Xenomrph posted:The soldiers in Aliens are shown as being cocky, overconfident, and overly reliant on their technology, but they don't do anything profoundly dumb like we see in Prometheus (and when they almost do, other characters call them out on it). They knowingly walk into a place they can't use their technology and without any kind of reconnaissance (why not send two or three guys down as a recon party to see what's up instead of the whole entire squad?) and drop on to a hostile planet with no access to immediate reinforcements. It works on little kid logic of what the military is, which is why you get cigar chomping sgt. badass, feisty minority woman, heavy gun white guy, heroic coward, inept but redeemable lieutenant, etc. I'm sure Cameron realized this too, as evidenced by
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Dec 28, 2016 16:26
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Snowman_McK posted:This is the best exchange in the movie. It's why both David and Shaw survive. Everyone who expects clear answers or thinks they're in control dies in horrifying, frequently ironic ways. David knows the answer, and knows how disappointing it is, and can accept that. Thus, he survives. Shaw accepts her own ignorance, she understands that the journey and the faith is requires is important. Thus, she survives. I was joking about in my last post, but this is the key thesis of every Damon Lindelof script basically. It's not deep, its hand waving.
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Dec 28, 2016 16:27
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Shageletic posted:I was joking about in my last post, but this is the key thesis of every Damon Lindelof script basically. It's not deep, its hand waving. Its hand waving what exactly? What does that line gloss over that you'd like a more detailed explanation on? You really want a monologue by an Engineer explaining their actions and motivations in detail? You're saying that would improve the movie somehow?
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Dec 28, 2016 16:32
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Depending on what the engineer actually said, it might have made the movie better to many people. And he doesn't have to pull out a blackboard and a thesis for some hour long lecture, just a minute long scene with something.
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Dec 28, 2016 16:39
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A minute is a really long time.
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Dec 28, 2016 16:43
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oldpainless posted:Depending on what the engineer actually said, it might have made the movie better to many people. And he doesn't have to pull out a blackboard and a thesis for some hour long lecture, just a minute long scene with something. So a scene with about a minute of dialogue may or may not have made the movie better, depending on what the dialogue actually was. That idea is very much like the Holloway character. He just wants to meet God and of course God will say some magical words to him that will make his whole life meaningful.
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Dec 28, 2016 16:43
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K. Waste posted:A minute is a really long time. He spends most of it looking for a pointing device
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Dec 28, 2016 16:44
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Basebf555 posted:Its hand waving what exactly? What does that line gloss over that you'd like a more detailed explanation on? You really want a monologue by an Engineer explaining their actions and motivations in detail? You're saying that would improve the movie somehow? Maybe I shouldn't comment because I still haven't seen Promethesus, but it's a thing I've noticed in alot of Lindelof's writing. Where the main characters, at the end of a winding and mystery laden road, come to the climax, only to find that not knowing was precisely the point. It not only doesn't create a satisfactory conclusion, it puts the onus on the audience, questioning why they would think there was an answer to what was obviously written as a dramatic puzzle. It's lazy, and unintelligent, and obviously sets me off, as you can see from above.
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Dec 28, 2016 17:27
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Shageletic posted:Maybe I shouldn't comment because I still haven't seen Promethesus, but it's a thing I've noticed in alot of Lindelof's writing. Where the main characters, at the end of a winding and mystery laden road, come to the climax, only to find that not knowing was precisely the point. I don't really care that much one way or the other about Lindelof, but in my opinion the story of Prometheus is perfectly suited to the kind of ending you're talking about. So maybe this is just a time where Lindelhof ended up involved in a project that was perfectly suited for his style? Watch the movie and decide for yourself, but maybe try to just allow the movie to be its own thing instead of going in with all that Lindelof baggage.
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Dec 28, 2016 17:32
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Prometheus, Star Trek, Lost and The Leftovers are good. Lindelof is good.
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Dec 28, 2016 17:34
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Shageletic posted:it puts the onus on the audience, questioning why they would think there was an answer to what was obviously written as a dramatic puzzle. You're getting mixed up between there being no stated answer and there being no answer at all. I know this because I've solved the 'puzzle'. It can be done. In Prometheus, there is no monkey-cheese randomness. The designers and artists put a lot of work into making the engineers into a full-fledged alien culture. Everything in the film has an explanation. There simply isn't any expository dialogue telling you what that explanation is. You are put in the role of the archeologist/anthropologist trying to make sense of these artifacts, that were created by people. Prometheus the movie was created by people. The film is about the challenge of understanding films, and media in general.
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Dec 28, 2016 17:45
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Basebf555 posted:I don't really care that much one way or the other about Lindelof, but in my opinion the story of Prometheus is perfectly suited to the kind of ending you're talking about. So maybe this is just a time where Lindelhof ended up involved in a project that was perfectly suited for his style? Watch the movie and decide for yourself, but maybe try to just allow the movie to be its own thing instead of going in with all that Lindelof baggage. Yeah maybe, I actually like the second season of the Leftovers. But years of being on this forum and basically learning the entire plot of this movie based on the Prometheus forever opinion war (smaller but in its way as potent as the Star Wars prequel Civil War and the Snyder battles), there's nothing there for me to be interested by (also the bits I've caught on HBO). There's so much good sci-fi out right now. EDIT: Really pulling for the new Aliens movies though.
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Dec 28, 2016 17:55
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Shageletic posted:Yeah maybe, I actually like the second season of the Leftovers. I'm hesitant to say he's the "best" android in the Alien series because I think they each bring something interesting to the table (even Call) but he's still really great. Speaking of androids, an interesting fan theory I've seen kicked around is Walter, the new Fassbender-bot, is actually loaded with a copy of Weyland's personality. Do we spoiler tag predictions/theories that aren't confirmed yet?
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Dec 28, 2016 18:46
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Xenomrph posted:I'd recommend watching Prometheus - it's worth it for Fassbender's performance alone. It's one of the things I'm looking forward to most in Covenant as well. I think you should be able to post what you want. Wasn't the bot from the ending of Alien 3 something like that? It's been a while since I've watched it, but wasn't he supposed to be some kind of special robot, and not only another Bishop bot?
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Dec 28, 2016 18:52
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Shageletic posted:I think you should be able to post what you want. Wasn't the bot from the ending of Alien 3 something like that? It's been a while since I've watched it, but wasn't he supposed to be some kind of special robot, and not only another Bishop bot?
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Dec 28, 2016 18:54
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Shageletic posted:Yeah maybe, I actually like the second season of the Leftovers. Prometheus is two hours long. You've spent probably twice that long reading other people's lovely opinions of it, just watch the goddamn thing.
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Dec 28, 2016 19:24
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All I know is there better be at least one scene with Fassbender chewing scenery with himself while holding his own disembodied head. If they brought an identical robot all the way from earth and don't take it to its logical conclusion then they failed as film makers.
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Dec 28, 2016 19:32
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Xenomrph posted:That was Michael Bishop and he was human, he designed the Bishop android. Remember: HE'S NOT A DROID!
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Dec 28, 2016 19:38
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Lovecraft's horror is not about incomprehensible aliens threatening humanity You are wrong.
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Dec 28, 2016 20:12
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All this Lovecraft talk reminds me of my friend who'd wear Cthulhu shirts, fantasized about ancient alien old ones, and loved that whole Victorian aesthetic but never read a word of his writings, never seen any of the 80s Stuart Gordon adaptations or even knew what Miskatonic even was. Lovecraft was very much about the horrors of space being a reflection of the horrors in ourselves. Read the goddamn books.
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Dec 28, 2016 20:38
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The number of Lovecraft stories that actually feature aliens or Great Old Ones is pretty low. The stuff that other writers have added to his mythos typically made those elements a lot more prominent.
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Dec 28, 2016 20:42
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You could argue that some of the stories were a reflection of Lovecrafts fears, feelings of alienation and disgust towards what he saw as degenaration of society. You could argue that the cosmic aspect of his horror reflected the scientific and atheist zeitgeist of the time. You can't argue that it was not about incomprehensible aliens threatening humanity. Even in his least mythosy stories this is true (The Horror at Red Hook). thotsky fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 20:45
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Basebf555 posted:The number of Lovecraft stories that actually feature aliens or Great Old Ones is pretty low. The stuff that other writers have added to his mythos typically made those elements a lot more prominent. To the best of my knowledge, I've read all of his collected works, and just on a gut level, this feels incorrect. There's all the dream stuff which is lighter on aliens and old ones, but otherwise? A lot of aliens and great old ones. Even if the story is more about people invoking those Old Ones, they're still there.
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Dec 28, 2016 20:49
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Slugworth posted:To the best of my knowledge, I've read all of his collected works, and just on a gut level, this feels incorrect. There's all the dream stuff which is lighter on aliens and old ones, but otherwise? A lot of aliens and great old ones. Even if the story is more about people invoking those Old Ones, they're still there. My fault for not being specific, I meant "feature" in the sense that the story heavily features them, not just throwing out the name of a Great Old One as a way to add flavor to some dialogue.
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Dec 28, 2016 20:51
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Well, it depends. I'm going to mess up the titles since it's a while since I've cracked open my collected works paper back, but the Colour story, Innsmouth, the various stories circulating around Miskatonic University, etc, all fixate on unknowable agents from beyond trying to make their way into human consciousness and causing madness (usually written from the perspective of someone investigating some sorts of mysterious goings-on/the disappearance or death of the mad person). The Great Ones aren't invoked by name that often (and I think there's like only one story using Cthulu's name), but their presence is palpable, and along with monstrosities sitting just to the side of reality, a major thematic point he hits again and again. EDIT: It was a changing and flexible mythology, but the essence of otherwordly malevolent forces was always there, and later afficinados added to them, and bulked up their individual histories, then one-upping each other in typical proto-wiki/nerd-like fashion. EDIT 2: IMB posted:Prometheus is two hours long. You've spent probably twice that long reading other people's lovely opinions of it, just watch the goddamn thing. ALRIGHT. But in my defense, I waste my time here during work hours. Shageletic fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 20:53
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Basebf555 posted:Its hand waving what exactly? What does that line gloss over that you'd like a more detailed explanation on? You really want a monologue by an Engineer explaining their actions and motivations in detail? You're saying that would improve the movie somehow? I wouldn't say that things have to be so black and white really. It's clear that some people feel there are parts of the movie that would benefit from improvement whilst other parts of the movie were fine. Take the engineer that you mention for example, while people take issue with Milburn & Fifield and feel that their scenes could have been written better, at the end of the movie we see David communicate to the engineer in their own language and have absolutely no idea what he actually said, and yet nobody took issue with that mystery or the reaction of the engineer afterwards. One of the prominent mysteries in the movie is, "But what did he say?!" which is all the more intriguing because David is such a fascinating character. The entire movie builds up to this one specific moment and yet viewers are left completely in the dark and accept this with no complaints. You could interpret this in different ways, but David's behavior is consistent with his character which prevents the scene from seeming unusual or illogical, whereas Milburn & Fifield for example doesn't work quite so well. We've seen incompetence in other movies in the franchise, such as Gorman in Aliens which was highlighted earlier in the thread. This doesn't draw the same criticism however because his character is established as being inexperienced in real-life combat scenarios, much to the dismay of those under his command. When push comes to shove he knows exactly what to do and explains detailed fallback procedure to Apone over the comms, almost like he's reciting a textbook example he studied earlier, but eventually cracks under the pressure to the point that Ripley has to intervene and viewers witness believable incompetence that makes sense. This is all accomplished by small lines if dialog scattered throughout the movie, rather than leaving the character of Gorman blank and viewers to question why he buckles under pressure in the way that he does. I don't think that it would have taken much to satisfy complaints about Milburn and Fifield when you compare their characterizations to someone such as Gorman, and that more effective character development could have been accomplished.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:23
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We know Fifeld's a dumbass because he's a huge rear end in a top hat and doesn't know how to eat with utensils. 
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Dec 28, 2016 22:34
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I do like that line from Gorman where it goes something like this. one of the other colonial marines (I think) asks: how many jumps have you made? Gorman: Two Pause Gorman: One, not including this one. Sets up his character pretty well, and I like his redemption of sorts. One of the things I hate about slasher films when characters are just there to be a bloody murder, instead of imbued with an arc of their own.
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Dec 28, 2016 22:44
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Ripley: How many drops is this for you, lieutenant? Gorman: 38... simulated. Vasquez: How many combat drops? Gorman: Er... two, including this one. Drake: poo poo. Hudson: Oh man... Ripley and Burke then look at each other with expressions that are halfway between surprise and dread. Hicks is asleep. Huge amount of character development in the space of about five seconds. SUNKOS fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 22:55
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The 'incomprehensible horror' in Innsmouth is the narrator finding out that his own heritage is tainted with that of the lower class and racially suspect blood. In the literal sense, this means that he is part fish person. What it is about is contemplating the horror of discovering miscegenation in one's family line. The "incomprehensible horror" encountered in Lovecraft isn't incomprehensible at all; if it were he'd be the horror equivalent of monkeycheese lol random humour. He wrote about aspects of the real world which were incomprehensible and horrible to him, a broken racist who was dying of impoverishment in utter despair and humiliation.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:19
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I also love it when Lovecraft imitators throw around the term "non-Euclidian," because that term describes the geometry of such eldritch objects as the Earth, a toilet bowl, the human body, and a cup of coffee.
Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 23:27
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We also get visual and dialogue cues about Milburn n Fifield that build there characters adequately for being the first two to go. If your issue is that there's not enough of those two then I agree, I could easily watch a space romp about those two. They're great.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:29
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Hicks is the best
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Dec 28, 2016 23:30
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Kulkasha posted:Hicks is the best Hudson, sir. He's Hicks.
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Dec 28, 2016 23:43
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I'm with the guy who wanted the Engineer to wake up and have a Bond villain moment, explaining their plan before killing the protagonists. Just take the classic adventure film references to their limit.
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Dec 29, 2016 00:16
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I figured when the engineer tore David's head off and killed Old Mr. Weys with it, his message was clear.
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Dec 29, 2016 00:20
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