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Bicyclops posted:I missed all of that knowledge because there is no information which tells you that the Hunter's Dream is a hub and a "I'm going this direction in a dungeon and assuming I'll be fine because this is the kind of game that doesn't talk down to me made me miss the tutorial skeletons. That seems like a small thing you consider that, mostly, you don't re-explore areas until you're looking to look for additional material. The thing that upsets me is that I am an insufferable completist about video games, and I'm aware of it, but I knew that this game different and didn't do my annoying create-a-spreadsheet research, and that taking a right instead of a left and selecting "Okay" when the game gave me a choice skipped my ability to even understand that I had to equip weapons without mashing a bunch of random buttons to discover that was how I did it. The game didn't judge you. Like I said, it's perfectly content to let you do whatever you want and go in completely misunderstanding how to play it. It does this not because it wants you to play a certain way or explore in a certain fashion, but because it's telling you that no matter how you choose to play, you have to think logically. Not hitting the L2 button to find out what it does is not logical. Not interacting with your other 2 weapon slots to see if you can put your gun there is not logical. Teleporting away from the area you just got to via a menu that has two confirmation prompts is not logical. Don't get me wrong, I am not faulting you for missing the tutorial elements as some people have been more harsh about somewhat unfairly, because this is your entry into the general style of gameplay the Souls games have. What I'm saying is that even though I'm not faulting you for it, it's still on you that those things happened no matter what, because you have always had the option of saying "I don't know how to play this, so I'm not going to go further in until I find out how." If you have to read the manual or e-manual as one poster suggested because you missed the floor tutorials, then fine, that knowledge is there for you too. Where you went wrong is assuming that that information is so buried that you couldn't find it, and pressing on without it. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 07:10
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Bicyclops posted:only slightly better American McGee's Alice in terms of overall feel, Uh, OK, this is where I go "what the gently caress"
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Dec 29, 2016 07:10
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Bloodborne does also have a literal manual.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:14
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CJacobs posted:
But if you don't know what world is a "hub", there is no zone to safely practice the controls or learn what proprietary elements are involved in the control scheme (because, one assumes, if you sit around hitting random button combos, somebody is going to eat you). It's great at making you feel unnerved, but the reason these things are explained to you in most other games is because pressing buttons to make a person move is not a natural thing you should be expected to understand, and feeling unnerved for 20 minutes while a mad hatter caricature (whom I don't even know why he's trying to kill me) and I experiment with the controls while getting sent back to the hub zone is way less frustrating than a literally five minute "Here is how the buttons make your character move" tutorial.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:16
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Reading the manual, also a thing most game players are not expected to do these days
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Dec 29, 2016 07:16
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Reading the manual, also a thing most game players are not expected to do these days But if you are confused about the mechanics and what you are supposed to be doing, why wouldn't you read the manual?
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Dec 29, 2016 07:17
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Bicyclops posted:It's great at making you feel unnerved, but the reason these things are explained to you in most other games is because pressing buttons to make a person move is not a natural thing you should be expected to understand, and feeling unnerved for 20 minutes while a mad hatter caricature (whom I don't even know why he's trying to kill me) and I experiment with the controls while getting sent back to the hub zone is way less frustrating than a literally five minute "Here is how the buttons make your character move" tutorial. I think it just requires a certain personality type to enjoy the game, then. The fact that I didn't feel safe anywhere and I kept dying, over and over for hours on one small area of the initial part of the game, is something that I look back on fondly
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Dec 29, 2016 07:18
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CJacobs posted:
I literally don't know how to access the manual for digitally downloaded games anymore and didn't even know they were a thing before this thread told me, and I've played a significant portion of three games. "It's on you" is tedium. That I should have paused the game to look at technical manuals for my console or read some off-site wiki is not immersion; it's an expectation that you've played the Souls games and a gentle nod that it isn't talking down to you.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:20
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Like, yeah it sucks you apparently felt no need to explore the area with tutorials everywhere but this is a game where you should be exploring, the game makes you notice there are messages on the floor by have notes give you your weapons which might indicate you might want to see if there are any more around. I mean, yeah, BB is not the friendliest games but acting like you missing some pretty basic things is entirely the games fault and also kind of lashing back at everyone that is trying to ease you in as somehow proving the game is bad in ways most of us really didn't have problems with is kind of getting dumb.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:20
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Bicyclops posted:But if you don't know what world is a "hub", there is no zone to safely practice the controls or learn what proprietary elements are involved in the control scheme (because, one assumes, if you sit around hitting random button combos, somebody is going to eat you). It's great at making you feel unnerved, but the reason these things are explained to you in most other games is because pressing buttons to make a person move is not a natural thing you should be expected to understand, and feeling unnerved for 20 minutes while a mad hatter caricature (whom I don't even know why he's trying to kill me) and I experiment with the controls while getting sent back to the hub zone is way less frustrating than a literally five minute "Here is how the buttons make your character move" tutorial. And my point is that there are ways to learn how to play the game besides a popup telling you exactly what to do. Again disregarding the actual manual for the game telling you exactly what the buttons are and what they do and what the mechanics are:  Experimentation is a huge part of these games and if you leave it in the hands of the game to tell you what to experiment with or how, it just won't gel with you. When you start doing stuff just to see if it works, and it does, and you keep doing it from then on, then it will click.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:23
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By the time I had gotten through the first part of Central Yharnam, I was so paranoid about my surroundings that I basically attacked everything including random barrels and boxes in case anything was trying to kill me. This eventually caused me to go apeshit on Eileen the Crow before she could talk to me, so instead she killed me. When I learned that she was a potentially friendly NPC that I had made permanently hostile it really made me think, "Wow, I can't believe the game got me into that state." Honestly I'm glad it happened before I got to the chapel, a teachable moment really
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Dec 29, 2016 07:26
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In addition to that screenshot above, the manual covers literally every topic you've been complaining about so far. Like the story.   The controls you complained about not knowing.  Every single hidden mechanic those tutorial notes tell you about.  Oh, and that the hunter's dream is your loving hub zone. Dude, it is your fault. I cannot say this any more bluntly and more rudely than I'd like. It is your fault you are having trouble with this game.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:26
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glam rock hamhock posted:Like, yeah it sucks you apparently felt no need to explore the area with tutorials everywhere but this is a game where you should be exploring, the game makes you notice there are messages on the floor by have ngvthos chance ce you your weapons which might indicate you mean get want to see my if there are any more around. I mean, yeah, BB is not the friendliest games but acting like you missing some pretty basic things is entirely the games fault and also kind of lashing back at everyone that is trying to ease you in as somehow proving the game is bad in ways most of us really didn't have problems with is kind of getting dumb. But I did, and one of the things I explored pulled me out of the tutorial world, which feels a little like going left instead of right in a dungeon. And to be clear, I don't think the game is bad (even with my reservations, I can already tell that I'm going to be really addicted to it), I just think that its need to abstract itself from feeling artificial from having no traditional tutorial and by using theme and aesthetic as the only means of immersion make it feel more artificial if you aren't familiar with its genre. The early deaths sometimes feel less like a lack of ability and more of a frustration with the artifice of manipulating a player avatar.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:27
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CJacobs posted:And my point is that there are ways to learn how to play the game besides a popup telling you exactly what to do. But every other game does explain the controls that way. That this one does it differently feels more artificial than those that don't.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:29
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I guess we just live in a world where looking at the tutorial messages, pressing buttons to test things out yourself or looking at the manual are all too difficult options for some people
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Dec 29, 2016 07:32
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I hope you do eventually gel with it, it's a lovely game
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Dec 29, 2016 07:32
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FROM Software cannot fail, it can only be failed.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:32
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I don't know... I'm going to bed, but the long and short of it is that I feel like, over the course of an hour and a half, if you can't even figure out when a game is saving when it kills you while experimenting with the controls (I think I died 4-5 times, and the last three I traveled for quite awhile), then it's catering to someone who can devote a lot of time to starting it, and if I didn't already know that this was an incredible, top-10 game from sources I trust, if this were in the age of renting something to try it, I'd have ditched it. I think there are minor (MINOR) problems with player implantation, and the "How long do I have to play this game before I start hating it?" comments from people other than me indicate that this is one of the specific instances in which I feel comfortable saying "It's not just me being insane."
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Dec 29, 2016 07:35
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 hey what do you know that's in the manual too edit: In my initial post I was trying to be fair to you because I agree with you (I really do!) that the game is very obtuse and leaves you out in the cold on purpose. I also agree that it is at least in part to scare you, a way to say "this game isn't like other games" right from the get-go. But my point is that it's not a bad thing, at all, because you have the resources you need to make sure you get it if you just don't. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 07:40
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Nothing in the Playstation 4 even informs you that manuals come with digital games, and that has not been an issue with any other game that I played.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:42
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I'm terrible at Bloodborne, but it is legitimately one of the greatest games released in the past 10 years.
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Dec 29, 2016 07:42
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Bicyclops posted:Nothing in the Playstation 4 even informs you that manuals come with digital games, and that has not been an issue with any other game that I played.  On the PS store page on the website.  On the store page for the game. And it shows up in the bottom menu when you're hovering over the game on your PS library. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 07:47
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Just to be clear, I don't think anyone is saying that people must like this game, just that there were multiple ways to address the problems you were having rather than being miserable for an hour and a half and it's not really the games fault you thought of none of them. I mean yeah some people here have said they don't care for BB and that's fine, but I also don't think those people had problems figuring out the basic controls
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Dec 29, 2016 07:48
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I've ignored every attempt the game made to teach me how to play it and will pretend not to know how to open the manual please attend to me and my extremely interesting opinions
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Dec 29, 2016 08:10
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Buca di Bepis posted:I've ignored every attempt the game made to teach me how to play it and will pretend not to know how to open the manual please attend to me and my extremely interesting opinions It's really mind boggling. I don't even want to be the "how did you miss this??" guy because I've been on the other end of that with Bloodborne and it feels bad. But to not even look for it? God drat.
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Dec 29, 2016 08:21
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Awwwww yes. I just beat the Fume Knight in DS2 by myself.  Couple of failed co-op runs with a buddy to start off, but he takes a ton more damage when he's alone. That was a rush.
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Dec 29, 2016 09:13
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Demon's Souls was actually pretty good about letting you know where to go and why you were doing it without holding your hand, which is what makes it arguably better than any Dark Souls game.
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Dec 29, 2016 09:24
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I'm tickled - I read somewhere that the opening area of Witcher 3 takes two hours or six to complete depending on how much you screw around, and it took me precisely six hours to knock out all of the quests and screw around. Letho lives, and now I get to pick out a new outfit - but unfortunately I can't continue tonight because I have other things to do.  Game is good.
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Dec 29, 2016 09:25
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I think most of this came from having standby NPCs (the monumental, the maiden in black) who actually told you what the hell was going on instead of what they think is going on, something From has tried to replicate in DS2 and 3 and failed at pretty handily. edit: Speaking of the monumental, I think he might be the only Souls game npc that you cannot kill in any way. If you take a swing at him, he just laughs at you and then gets annoyed and tells you to cut it out and that monumentals can't be killed. Honestly that's one of my fondest memories of that game, is taking a swing at him to see what would happen only for him to say "knock it off jerk" because it was so unexpected. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 09:25
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I don't think Demon's Souls ever actually told you how to jump. In fact I think a few actions were missing from its message hallway. It also was more clear where to go because it broke up its world into smaller chunks rather than having one giant connected world, so it came at a price.
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Dec 29, 2016 09:27
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You can't jump in Demon's Souls. edit: I meant to append this to my previous post with a quote but I'm phone posting and well that didn't turn out well for me at all
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Dec 29, 2016 09:29
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The PC port of Final Fantasy IX (well over ten years later and I still can't believe I typed that) is pretty great. I do have a couple of gripes though. I mostly wish they would just restore the original PSX interface instead of using the touchscreen one. It also doesn't have full analog controls which is annoying. Also reviving magic/items don't automatically target a fallen party member and that gets irritating if you're someone like me that played this game to death and muscle-memories his way through it. Still though it's more faithful to the PSX original than the FFVII and VIII ports imo, both of which rely on stupid awful MIDI music that hardly sound anything like intended. IIRC that got fixed in a patch in the Steam releases but I'm not sure.
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Dec 29, 2016 09:38
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There should be an easy mode for Dark Souls games. That includes Bloodborne too.
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Dec 29, 2016 09:43
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Rexroom posted:There should be an easy mode for Dark Souls games. That includes Bloodborne too. It's called summoning
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Dec 29, 2016 09:44
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Rexroom posted:There should be an easy mode for Dark Souls games. That includes Bloodborne too. I actually agree with this, some people really just can't get into it because of the difficulty and I don't blame them, a mode that just suplexes all of the game's number values (health, damage, etc) through the floor but keeps everything else the same would be nice I think. That way it'd be relatively the same experience, but the less ballooning HP values etc would make later game fights less of a do-or-die thing, because in the late stages the Souls games get very happy with enemies that one or two-shot you. Bloodborne especially. Hell, I don't think they should even block anything off for doing so, it's just the same game but easier. Maybe no trophies or cheevos if you play on the alternative mode or something minor like that.
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Dec 29, 2016 09:50
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Rexroom posted:There should be an easy mode for Dark Souls games. That includes Bloodborne too. They should have one like Ninja Gaiden where it constantly mocks you for playing on easy.
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Dec 29, 2016 10:23
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After climbing the mountain that was X3 Terran Conflict, learning soulsborne games seems pretty simple. The X games are terrible at telling you how to play them and have terrible interfaces and yet, with the exception of the latest one, they're all really fun once you figure it all out.
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Dec 29, 2016 10:31
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I am now downloading the update to Bloodborne. I tried Demon's souls and Dark Souls a lot and have found them tough to get into. I keep thinking I have, but I am wrong. I am hoping Bloodborne is a different kettle of fish, and through that I can return to the others with a new sense of appreciation.
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Dec 29, 2016 10:50
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CJacobs posted:I actually agree with this, some people really just can't get into it because of the difficulty and I don't blame them, a mode that just suplexes all of the game's number values (health, damage, etc) through the floor but keeps everything else the same would be nice I think. That way it'd be relatively the same experience, but the less ballooning HP values etc would make later game fights less of a do-or-die thing, because in the late stages the Souls games get very happy with enemies that one or two-shot you. Bloodborne especially. Hell, I don't think they should even block anything off for doing so, it's just the same game but easier. Maybe no trophies or cheevos if you play on the alternative mode or something minor like that. *waves hand* It's me, I'm the one that wants this. I love the idea of exploring the land and finding things and enjoying the level design, but between playing the game on kb+m and the combat being relatively uninteresting to me - at least, I don't want to slog through it all when I'm just there to stare at the scenery - so a mode like that would have been excellent. As is I went for an LP, but...that does remove the magic of finding things on your own.
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Dec 29, 2016 11:46
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Macaluso posted:I think those look awesome (and I agree with the giant shoulder thing another poster mentioned, giant shoulders rule), but if you want to make terrible fashion choices you can transmog them to look like a billion other different things. I'm fairly sure glaives can be transmogged into swords. On top of that, you get your artifact weapon pretty quickly after finishing the DH starting zone and there are optional looks you can get for them (that takes a bit longer than simply farming some old donjons for a weapon look you want though). Yeah I know, I just wish I could transmog them into warglaives that are of reasonable size an don't have 8 million cracks and notches on them.
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Dec 29, 2016 12:09
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