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Lt. Danger posted:Agreed, and a good solution to the warped and stunted male understanding of housework is, at the start of cohabiting, to have a direct and comprehensive conversation about household responsibilities, ideally with some kind of rota or chore list or something that people can point to when they see their partner is shirking.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:05
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The article/blogpost Tiny Bront linked before even specified that by creating such a rota you're asking the woman to be your mother, once again demanding a burden on her time and effort to spare the man one. While I agree there needs to be learned responsibility, it should not fall down to individual women to do this, and for the adults already showing learned helplessness it's not the place to start - if you're in your late teens or older, I'm afraid the burden is on the dude to learn of their own accord. Beginning with young kids and seeing that they are not reinforced with gender roles, in housework and other areas, is where effort is better served.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:11
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Lt. Danger posted:Agreed, and a good solution to the warped and stunted male understanding of housework is, at the start of cohabiting, to have a direct and comprehensive conversation about household responsibilities, ideally with some kind of rota or chore list or something that people can point to when they see their partner is shirking. I don't think you understand that "chore rota" is a document of fiction in most households that argue about housework. The shirking partner will be happy to sign up to a fair rota, but then when it comes to their task, they are "tired" or "had a bad day at work" or "just got a new game" or "went to the pub with friends." Then the put-upon partner gets the joy of nagging - "Did you do the dishes? It's your week on the rota." "Give me a chance, I've been busy." "There are no dishes left, I can't cook dinner. That's my task on the rota this week." "Can't you see this is a boss fight? I'll do it after." "You've been playing 2 hours." "THIS is not the MOMENT. I'll do it when I'm ready." "You could have done it yesterday, the sink was already full then." "FINE." *throws controller, washes dishes angrily* (repeats in 2 weeks)
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Dec 29, 2016 15:12
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Lt. Danger posted:Agreed, and a good solution to the warped and stunted male understanding of housework is, at the start of cohabiting, to have a direct and comprehensive conversation about household responsibilities, ideally with some kind of rota or chore list or something that people can point to when they see their partner is shirking. I found this unbearable enough when I was living in a collective, I couldn't imagine living with someone who would do that.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:14
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Heck, at Uni we agreed on a rota to clean the floors and empty the bins. It lasted all of about one day before people started finding excuses "oh I was busy that day" and it became a lingering testament to our collective failure adorning the fridge.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:14
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Maybe....people could wash when they see that something is dirty instead of having to rely on a chart?
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Dec 29, 2016 15:17
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FactsAreUseless posted:You can't just do it at the start. It has to be an ongoing conversation. Otherwise you're just asking her to be able to lay out what needs to be done ahead of time, and do the work of organizing it. It's an everyday problem. So you have to tackle it every day. I don't think anyone was proposing it be written in blood Tesseraction posted:The article/blogpost Tiny Bront linked before even specified that by creating such a rota you're asking the woman to be your mother, once again demanding a burden on her time and effort to spare the man one. While I agree there needs to be learned responsibility, it should not fall down to individual women to do this, and for the adults already showing learned helplessness it's not the place to start - if you're in your late teens or older, I'm afraid the burden is on the dude to learn of their own accord. Beginning with young kids and seeing that they are not reinforced with gender roles, in housework and other areas, is where effort is better served. Maybe I missed it but I understood the blogpost to be talking about men using the excuse of "just tell me what to do and I'll do it" - demanding weekly nagging to do basic chores. The point of a written rota is that one partner doesn't have to tell the other what to do, because it's all already written down and agreed to by both partners. In essence, the man has already told himself what to do and has no cause to whine about not knowing or not remembering. I think one of the reasons people are suggesting this honest convo + rota strategy is that it brings all this baggage out into the light. The man can't say "I don't know how to do the ironing" if he sat down and wrote "I do ironing on Week B". He can't say "I don't need to vacuum this week" if it's written down for him to do. He can't fob it off as "women's work" if he's already agreed to it. And if he does, you've got something concrete to point at and dump him over if necessary. BarbarianElephant posted:I don't think you understand that "chore rota" is a document of fiction in most households that argue about housework. The shirking partner will be happy to sign up to a fair rota, but then when it comes to their task, they are "tired" or "had a bad day at work" or "just got a new game" or "went to the pub with friends." Then the put-upon partner gets the joy of nagging - Yes, I suppose if you don't communicate honestly then a strategy of honest communication won't work! This is a separate problem to cultural male incompetence at managing a household and specific to this dysfunctional relationship.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:29
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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Goons and cleaning: Impressions, experiences, outcomes - How is clean formed?Alhazred posted:Maybe....people could wash when they see that something is dirty instead of having to rely on a chart? This, too, can be botched by the filthy man-child not realizing the flat needs vacuuming/bedsheets washing/whatever, ie. different/bad cleanliness standards.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:29
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Alhazred posted:Maybe....people could wash when they see that something is dirty instead of having to rely on a chart? Comically enough that's part of the problem - men have a tendency to leave something dirty on the side because "I'll deal with it later" (the washing-up fairy comes and visits between them saying that and 'coming around to deal with it'). A grimy floor only gets cleaned once you start losing footwear to the stickiness. There's a natural laziness inherent in a lot of people - and that's not to say women don't do it too, heck I know a woman who literally curtained off half her house rather than actually clean it for visitors.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:29
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Lt. Danger posted:Maybe I missed it but I understood the blogpost to be talking about men using the excuse of "just tell me what to do and I'll do it" - demanding weekly nagging to do basic chores. To some extent, but a rota isn't necessarily effective, it doesn't grab you by the ear and drag you to do something. The problem isn't necessarily that these men aren't aware that these things need doing, they just feel "oh that's simple I'll do it this evening *next day rolls around* ah it wasn't important anyway" etc. etc. Basically have you tried herding cats? At least the cats will reliably clean themselves.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:33
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Lt. Danger posted:Yes, I suppose if you don't communicate honestly then a strategy of honest communication won't work! This is a separate problem to cultural male incompetence at managing a household and specific to this dysfunctional relationship. So, how could the put-upon partner communicate honestly in this scenario? She/he already drew up a rota and did his/her part of it. The shirking partner agrees to do his/her share but does not. If you can solve this problem you can lower the divorce rate by 10% so I'm eager to hear it!
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Dec 29, 2016 15:35
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I do 100% of the cleaning at my house and as my overtime has increased hiring a service has been getting mighty attractive. Having no free time during the week sucks.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:35
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BarbarianElephant posted:I don't think you understand that "chore rota" is a document of fiction in most households that argue about housework. The shirking partner will be happy to sign up to a fair rota, but then when it comes to their task, they are "tired" or "had a bad day at work" or "just got a new game" or "went to the pub with friends." Then the put-upon partner gets the joy of nagging -
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Dec 29, 2016 15:39
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BarbarianElephant posted:So, how could the put-upon partner communicate honestly in this scenario? She/he already drew up a rota and did his/her part of it. The shirking partner agrees to do his/her share but does not. The shirking partner is the one not communicating honestly - agreeing to a division of chores and then not doing it. If this partner is not able to commit to a basic arrangement that's been explicitly spelled out for them in writing, then maybe they are not capable of an equal relationship? Regardless, it has nothing to do with the efficacy of honest communication.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:41
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So I think it's really funny that my clear, concise, precise and intellectual post that described the underlying problem here was completely ignored, but the fly-in-fly-out guy talking about Women-Biologically-Love-Alphas, as if such biological determinism was some kind of stunning new idea that had never been reasoned about or encountered before, gets like 5 people quoting it. Just to repeat that point I made, because apparently it needs to be made again: if your conception of the problem assumes that, in the majority of cases, the root of the problem is based on 'attitude', then you are poo poo out of luck, because 'attitude' is a property of one's character, and you cannot loving change someone else's character. Don't think you can, you can't, only they can. But you know what you can change? Habits. Expectations. Perspective. The exact poo poo I was referring to in my very first post, to which the reaction of this thread was to flip the gently caress out. Hell, FactsAreUseless, you own experience vindicates my point. You may not have had to use a schedule, but you changed your expectations. Guess what? That's not going to work for everyone. Sometimes, you might just need a system. If you don't, good for you, but don't feel bad if you need it. Because here's the truth: everyone is flawed. If you're in a relationship with actual human beings, you will have to deal with their flaws, as they deal with yours. If you think the process of 'managing' the other person's flaws is 'beneath you' (oh, why should I mother them!), then every single loving relationship you get into is destined to crash and burn around you, because you couldn't compromise. If the other person has the kind of flaws that you cannot manage, you sever. If the other person has a terrible character, a legitimate problem of attitude, you sever. If there is actually something there, some potential to it, maybe assuming that the only reason your partner is 'loving up' is because they 'hate you' isn't the best starting point.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:42
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twodot posted:I don't understand the strategy you think will be successful at convincing this hypothetical person to do chores. I definitely agree there exists people who will agree to chore rotas, and then not do them (or do them poorly), but I think that just means those people systematically won't do chores, not that chore rotas are inferior to some unnamed strategy. The sad fact of the matter is that someone who isn't willing to accept the responsibility of sharing housework properly will not, and probably never will, do their fair share. At best you can get them to do jobs as and when they're told to, but that's hardly about fair-sharing when you're having to be their supervisor.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:43
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twodot posted:I definitely agree there exists people who will agree to chore rotas Honestly, "willing to make a chore rota" is a huge warning sign.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:45
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The main value in writing poo poo down in this case is the ability to cut through a potential hang up with a guy who underestimates the women's burden. BarbarianElephant posted:So, how could the put-upon partner communicate honestly in this scenario? She/he already drew up a rota and did his/her part of it. The shirking partner agrees to do his/her share but does not. The problem in your scenario is that the partner is a straight up rear end in a top hat and no amount of communication is going to fix anything because they aren't interested in an adult relationship.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:46
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rudatron posted:So I think it's really funny that my clear, concise, precise and intellectual post that described the underlying problem here was completely ignored, but the fly-in-fly-out guy talking about Women-Biologically-Love-Alphas, as if such biological determinism was some kind of stunning new idea that had never been reasoned about or encountered before, gets like 5 people quoting it.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:47
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I was accused by tiny brontosaurus of being some Ultimate Bad Guy, so I don't think it's that much of a strawman.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:48
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Lt. Danger posted:The shirking partner is the one not communicating honestly - agreeing to a division of chores and then not doing it. If this partner is not able to commit to a basic arrangement that's been explicitly spelled out for them in writing, then maybe they are not capable of an equal relationship? Regardless, it has nothing to do with the efficacy of honest communication. Honest commicators never have this problem because the scenario would go like "Did you do the dishes? It's your week on the rota." "Oops! Let me pause my game." Basically, a non-problem. The issue is how to deal with this when people are not honest communicators. I never did figure this out. I would be interested to know the solution, because this very scenario kills lots of otherwise great relationships. The nagging and the shirking creates an atmosphere of hostility. I wouldn't be surprised if my ex tells people something like "She was such a nag! The moment I sat down to relax and play a game she was all like, do the dishes, do the vacuuming. And she had much higher standards than me, so I couldn't even tell they were dirty!"
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Dec 29, 2016 15:49
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Also I'm not saying that you can never solve anything by writing stuff down more or being more organized. If that helps you communicate better in a relationship, awesome. I just mean that you can't sit down beforehand and hash everything out. It's a continuous process. There's not going to be a single solution, because there's not a single cause. What's important is to just be aware of everything your partner does around the house, and try to do more, and listen without getting defensive about it. However you get that done is great.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:50
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BarbarianElephant posted:Honest commicators never have this problem because the scenario would go like
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Dec 29, 2016 15:51
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Separation is always a viable end-state.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:51
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FactsAreUseless posted:You are really kicking the poo poo out of that strawman, good for you. Typical miskarphosandry of the feminist left!!
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Dec 29, 2016 15:54
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FactsAreUseless posted:You are really kicking the poo poo out of that strawman, good for you. What strawman? BarbarianElephant posted:Honest commicators never have this problem because the scenario would go like You said they were your ex, that's how I would deal with them. If you can't have honest communication with your partner without them lying to your face about their responsibilities in the relationship then you're missing like steps one through five of required elements of a relationship.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:56
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BarbarianElephant posted:Honest commicators never have this problem because the scenario would go like Reality: "Did you do the dishes? It's your week on the rota." "I know I know, I just wanted to beat this boss first." Path A: [a row ensues] Path B: [eyes are rolled, the game continues, the dishes remain unwashed another night]
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Dec 29, 2016 15:56
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I can't believe a lovely relationship is poo poo and awful.
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Dec 29, 2016 15:58
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FactsAreUseless posted:This isn't true at all. You're working from the assumption that this is only a thing that happens in Bad Relationships. It's not. A good relationship is not one in which there are no conflicts, or no problems exist. This sort of thing can cause Good Relationships to become Bad Relationships. It's like the crack in the glass that eventually causes the whole glass to split. Resolving conflicts is easy when both people are on the same page, but hard when they are not. Both the people in my example feel like the victim. The put-upon partner feels like a skivvy. The shirking partner feels nagged. How can they resolve this?
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Dec 29, 2016 15:59
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It's kind of misanthropic that you'd assume that would happen with your partner, but I don't know what kind of people you date the actual solution is: - talk about commitment, the necessity of chores, the burden being placed on you, and the value of one's word - if that fails, threaten to withhold rewards, protest the unfairness, make it clear that this is more than about the The Dishes, but about mutually respecting one another - if that fails, carry through with those threats - if that fails, sever
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Dec 29, 2016 16:00
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BarbarianElephant posted:This sort of thing can cause Good Relationships to become Bad Relationships. It's like the crack in the glass that eventually causes the whole glass to split.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:00
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rudatron posted:- if that fails, threaten to withhold rewards
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Dec 29, 2016 16:01
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*a selfish idiot ignores his partner and his responsibilities to goof off on leisure pursuits* The real problem is housework rotas
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Dec 29, 2016 16:01
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That's not code for 'sex', it means anything that you would give up for their benefit. So, they want to do something, you don't, but you go along anyway because why not.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:03
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rudatron posted:That's not code for 'sex', it means anything that you would give up for their benefit. So, they want to do something, you don't, but you go along anyway because why not. I think he's just more surprised by the puppy-training strategy.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:06
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Posting about my lazy boyfriend's male privilege as I mow the lawn for him.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:06
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Rappaport posted:The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Goons and cleaning: Impressions, experiences, outcomes - How is clean formed? A...a chart?
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Dec 29, 2016 16:07
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rudatron posted:It's kind of misanthropic that you'd assume that would happen with your partner, but I don't know what kind of people you date
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Dec 29, 2016 16:08
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My experience tends to lean on the side of lacking perspective. When I was younger I always had to be told to clean because I literally cannot tell when certain things are dirty, wood floors in particular. Now partially I tuned it out because my father was abusive as gently caress but I've never really interalized cleaning. It's made worse by my depression. If I'm not currently choking to death via dust it clearly doesn't need doing. Sometimes I can manage to clean every week but then my depression hits back and it becomes too bothersome. I know I should clean but by then it morphs into an excuse to hate myself or that I don't deserve anything not lovely. This also goes back to an old conversation now, but I am also trans and I have to qualify everything. I've been full time for years now, have no issues passing but there are plenty of times that I don't feel like a "real woman." That I can't call myself that. It's a very interalized thing. And old guard feminists can have very bad opinions and while the newer does not it still leads me to feel that I am intruding and that I do not belong.
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Dec 29, 2016 16:08
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Eimi posted:My experience tends to lean on the side of lacking perspective. When I was younger I always had to be told to clean because I literally cannot tell when certain things are dirty, wood floors in particular. Now partially I tuned it out because my father was abusive as gently caress but I've never really interalized cleaning. It's made worse by my depression. If I'm not currently choking to death via dust it clearly doesn't need doing. Sometimes I can manage to clean every week but then my depression hits back and it becomes too bothersome. I know I should clean but by then it morphs into an excuse to hate myself or that I don't deserve anything not lovely. Have you tried a....rota?
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Dec 29, 2016 16:11
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