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Tesseraction posted:Asking why the woman has to do it? Like if they are just ignorant then it should be a few cogs turning before they reply "oh right" and get on with it? Any other response is basically "because I man." If the woman does broach the subject and the man is still a dick about it then yeah, fine. But that's a separate thing from saying the woman shouldn't ever have to voice her concerns because it means enacting the emotional labour of tip-toeing around a fragile ego or whatever other jargon-laden catastrophe you want to imagine.
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Dec 29, 2016 18:47
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the trump tutelage posted:... So you do your best and you think maybe you've even done it to your partner's standard. But you haven't. Then what? The first time around? Worst you should expect is a query about what you used to clean the surface? Like, you're not against the firing squad c'mon.
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Dec 29, 2016 18:49
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the trump tutelage posted:I agree, but the impression I get from some in this thread is that the woman having to say anything at all is deeply problematic and sexist. Maybe it is, but it still seems necessary. The situation never really arises where a man walks into a house and then pauses as they wait for sequential input (well unless really drunk but I digress). The reality is more like (as an example) the dude will be watching TV long after dinner was finished without raising an eyebrow that she hasn't been since she took the plates away (or maybe he bothered to help with the plates) because there's tidying and cleaning to do.
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Dec 29, 2016 18:52
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Tesseraction posted:Which is true but the issue is that women should be expected to be the arbiter of what is 'clean' and what is a blatant health hazard. Keeping a minimum standard of hygiene should not be this giant divide that the thread has clearly shown it to be. "Your standards are higher than mine" is the Standard Male Response here. They act like their partner is trying to make them dust her collection of 1,000 priceless Beanie Babies twice a day, when what they mean is "I can stand a slightly thicker layer of poo poo on the toilet than you, knowing that you will crack and clean it before it gets to the point that it bothers me enough to do something about it."
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Dec 29, 2016 18:52
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falcon2424 posted:I don't think that the bold is normal. I definitely don't think you should be normalizing it as acceptable behavior from someone who's ready for a relationship. how are you so completely, utterly incapable of understanding written english. it boggles the loving mind.
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Dec 29, 2016 18:54
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BarbarianElephant posted:"Your standards are higher than mine" is the Standard Male Response here. They act like their partner is trying to make them dust her collection of 1,000 priceless Beanie Babies twice a day, when what they mean is "I can stand a slightly thicker layer of poo poo on the toilet than you, knowing that you will crack and clean it before it gets to the point that it bothers me enough to do something about it." Eurgh, toilets that aren't pristine are basically my nightmare scenario in a house. Well, outside of far-fetched scenarios involving bathtubs and saxophones.
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Dec 29, 2016 18:54
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Tesseraction posted:far-fetched scenarios involving bathtubs and saxophones.
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Dec 29, 2016 18:58
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Differing standards only seem like an issue if they apply to individual responsibilities. In the above scenario, you could make as valid a case that her standards are too high as his are too low. If he expects to live above his standards by exploiting her labor, because women clean and that's just what they do, then that's The Patriarchy rearing it's head. If he doesn't care and doesn't understand why she does, and is unwilling to change his behavior for her, then that's just a human being an rear end in a top hat. Turning it into a Feminist Issue seems like a half-baked undergrad thesis.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:00
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When you spray piss all over the shitter you should clean it.the trump tutelage posted:Differing standards only seem like an issue if they apply to individual responsibilities. In the above scenario, you could make as valid a case that her standards are too high as his are too low. If he expects to live above his standards by exploiting her labor, because women clean and that's just what they do, then that's The Patriarchy rearing it's head. If he doesn't care and doesn't understand why she does, and is unwilling to change his behavior for her, then that's just a human being an rear end in a top hat. Turning it into a Feminist Issue seems like a half-baked undergrad thesis. "Because there is absolutely no trend split along gender lines in this issue, therefore it is entirely a human issue and I don't see why feminists want to whine about it?"
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Dec 29, 2016 19:00
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Nevvy Z posted:He's referring to the woman's expecations of the standard of cleanliness the home will be generally kept to. This is a very individual thing. It's honestly an irrelevant thing. What matters is that you both have as much leisure. No one's going to criticize you for the windows not being shiny enough if they can see you've been doing the ironing instead (unless of course you've been faffing around taking hours over one sheet). That is one reason why chores rotas suck - they encourage people to think they only have to do 6 things and that's it, missing out all the random stuff that comes up, and if they can skimp on those things they're entitled to slack off. Just do the hours.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:01
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BarbarianElephant posted:"Your standards are higher than mine" is the Standard Male Response here. They act like their partner is trying to make them dust her collection of 1,000 priceless Beanie Babies twice a day, when what they mean is "I can stand a slightly thicker layer of poo poo on the toilet than you, knowing that you will crack and clean it before it gets to the point that it bothers me enough to do something about it."
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Dec 29, 2016 19:03
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OwlFancier posted:When you spray piss all over the shitter you should clean it. The worst about this are women hovering over public toilets. Does anyone actually sit on the drat seat except me? Wipe it up, ladies! [Sorry, woman derail] 
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Dec 29, 2016 19:05
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Are you saying that (these) men actually have the same standard of cleanliness as their partners, they just willingly ignore their own disgust to pressure their partner into actually doing the cleaning? You seem to imply that the idea of different standards is basically a ploy made up by men to get out of house work? It's more that the problem is that if the man has a higher tolerance for a beshitted household, he never cleans - he relies on the woman going  and cleaning up first. While this makes sense because some people are filthy slug people, do you think it's fair on the partner with the better hygiene?
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Dec 29, 2016 19:07
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You seem to imply that the idea of different standards is basically a ploy made up by men to get out of house work? Often, yes. Quite often unconsciously. They notice that the dirt never gets worse than a certain point, and assume that is natural, when in fact that is the point at which their partner does the cleaning. And even if you *can* stand a filth encrusted toilet, cleaning it is still reasonable. It's not like she's asking you to wash and iron the towels every time you use them. It's a good way to avoid getting sick.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:09
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BarbarianElephant posted:The worst about this are women hovering over public toilets. Does anyone actually sit on the drat seat except me? Wipe it up, ladies! Fun fact: the stall closest to the entrance to the toilet is statistically the cleanest as people tend to walk past it to get a better view of all the stalls and then not turn back afterwards, making it the least used.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:10
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OwlFancier posted:"Because there is absolutely no trend split along gender lines in this issue, therefore it is entirely a human issue and I don't see why feminists want to whine about it?" "John doesn't care what toppings are on the pizza, but Jane wants pineapple. Let's examine this scenario through a feminist lens."
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Dec 29, 2016 19:14
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the trump tutelage posted:So any time a man and a woman have a legitimate disagreement, or simply don't see eye to eye, it is necessarily a feminist issue? Well the question is why women had to be the one to decide when the house is too dirty... then think back within living memory when womens' most-likely occupation was housekeeper.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:17
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the trump tutelage posted:So any time a man and a woman have a legitimate disagreement, or simply don't see eye to eye, it is necessarily a feminist issue?
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Dec 29, 2016 19:17
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the trump tutelage posted:So any time a man and a woman have a legitimate disagreement, or simply don't see eye to eye, it is necessarily a feminist issue? It's more like if John wants pepperoni, Jane wants pineapple, and John always wins because he starts a fight if he loses and Jane knows someone needs to be the one who gives in, and they have both been socialized to believe that the woman gives in by default to keep the peace.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:18
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Basically imagine the pizza is dick shaped and Jane doesn't want the pepperoni because then it looks like infected dick but John thinks it's funny.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:19
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Tesseraction posted:It's more that the problem is that if the man has a higher tolerance for a beshitted household, he never cleans - he relies on the woman going BarbarianElephant posted:Often, yes. Quite often unconsciously. They notice that the dirt never gets worse than a certain point, and assume that is natural, when in fact that is the point at which their partner does the cleaning. BarbarianElephant posted:And even if you *can* stand a filth encrusted toilet, cleaning it is still reasonable. It's not like she's asking you to wash and iron the towels every time you use them. It's a good way to avoid getting sick.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:20
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Tesseraction posted:It's more that the problem is that if the man has a higher tolerance for a beshitted household, he never cleans - he relies on the woman going He should probably do more just to be a good person and make happy someone he loves, but I don't see the relevance of gender to this scenario except maybe by way of debating whether men are socialized to care too little or women are socialized to care too much.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:20
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Barring someone with sever expectations of complete cleanliness I think it really comes down to personal responsibility. I grew up cooking and cleaning because I was raised in a traditional Southern household that I have spent a lot of my life trying to undo the learned racism/sexism/general awful behaviors that come when raised in such a way. I've come far, but it's a constant thing I check myself against. So, I know it can be hard to step back from your life and examine your actions and thoughts especially ones that have been with you your whole life. Since I was raised with the "knowledge" that I would be cleaning up after my future family I have an innate threshold of cleanliness in my home. If I was a boy raised in the same household, I would have almost no concept of what it takes to make a home clean because I never needed to know it because my loving wife will do it duuuh and therefore it was never taught to me. I know this only anecdotally as my male friends and boyfriends from my home state were disgusting. I lived with two male friends for a year and their rooms were indescribable. My room was a sanctuary. I would visit them at their parent's house and it was the same and guess what the mom was doing everything while the dad was relegated to "man stuff" like taking out the garbage (not replacing the bag like every single Dad does this wtf, just put the freaking bag in the can) and car maintenance. I had live in boyfriends, I would do everything and this was when things started to click. I worked, they worked. I cleaned and cooked*, they maybe did their own laundry. Every girlfriend's house, romantic or otherwise, was clean. Not crazy clean but the carpets were vacuumed, no dirty dishes or old food, no dirty clothes, if they had a pet there was no pet waste, no trash everywhere. The difference is clear. If you are a guy reading this thread think back to your upbringing. What chores did you do? How often were you scrubbing toilets, doing dishes, washing windows, vacuuming, spot cleaning rugs, mopping floors, doing laundry, cooking, taking out the trash, doing dishes, emptying the dishwasher, dusting, polishing wood (not in that way), general straightening, polishing mirrors, sweeping? Were you relegated to lawn care perhaps? Then you might not realize that something needs to be cleaned and I understand. Just go to a room in your house, your bedroom for example and stand at the threshold of the room and look at it. Really look at it, look at the carpets, the dresser, the mirror, the tops of shelves, underneath the bed, the bed clothes, is something in there that should be somewhere else? If there is one thing you can fix then do it. Then go the next room in your place and repeat. Make your bed everyday. It might sound stupid, but cleaning one thing will make other messes more noticeable and soon you will notice when things aren't clean. A lot of men are behind in this area due to being raised in a patriarchal society. It's not something you grew up doing and you had no say in the way you were raised, so no one is blaming your for that but it is your personal responsibility as an adult in TYOOL 2016 to understand the problem and take your own steps. Empower your selves! *One exception was a guy who was a chef.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:23
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the trump tutelage posted:So any time a man and a woman have a legitimate disagreement, or simply don't see eye to eye, it is necessarily a feminist issue? "Any disagreement ever" is exactly the same thing as "there is a distinct trend along gender lines for this issue" yes, that's exactly what I said.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:23
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A Buttery Pastry posted:What happens when they both live by themselves? Do you really think they're then putting an equal amount of time into housework, but the moment you put them together the man starts with the power moves to get his gf/wife-mom? Men who live on their own tend to do their own housework. I've not noticed bachelor pads to be worse than spinster dens (apart from the smell of socks LOL), but when two move in together, it always seems to be the woman who cleans most.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:25
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BarbarianElephant posted:It's more like if John wants pepperoni, Jane wants pineapple, and John always wins because he starts a fight if he loses and Jane knows someone needs to be the one who gives in, and they have both been socialized to believe that the woman gives in by default to keep the peace. Because yes that scenario is hosed up and I'm pretty sure everyone in the thread would agree that John is a patriarchal rear end and his behaviour is deeply informed by sexist socialization. However, I'd still want to know if his tantrums (and her acquiescence) are a function of their male/female relationship or if he pouts and stomps his foot as readily with men as with women. I've met a lot of kindergartners who were equal opportunity offenders.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:29
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A Buttery Pastry posted:No, but it basically attributes to malice what is actually just a difference of opinion. I mean, obviously the man should notice eventually that he's now doing less housework than he did when he lived alone/the woman doing housework when he wouldn't even have considered it, but then the conversation following that could as easily be "I don't think you need to clean poo poo that often" as it could be "Wait, want me to clean the toilet this week?" the trump tutelage posted:You're saying the man is relying on the woman to do the cleaning, as though "clean" is his expectation and he's too lazy to enact the labour himself. What if he genuinely does not give a drat whatsoever if she cleans, and is content to live in a dirtier state than she would prefer? It may not be "fair" for her to do more cleaning, but he doesn't expect her to do more in the first place. Then congratulations, you were raised without a hammering in of a minimum level of cleanliness which you are most likely psychologically incapable of accepting as anything other than "might as well be walking around in shitted pants." Good for you, now try and undo decades of socialisation of your partner. the trump tutelage posted:He should probably do more just to be a good person and make happy someone he loves, but I don't see the relevance of gender to this scenario except maybe by way of debating whether men are socialized to care too little or women are socialized to care too much. A fair question but irrelevant because the ship has already sailed. (Also the correct answer is a mixture of the two with a heavy weighting towards dudes being slobs.) At this point the question is whether it is healthy to see your partner doing all this work and go "lol broads" while putting your feet up.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:30
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the trump tutelage posted:I don't think anyone's actually discussing that scenario, as much as a tiny brontosaurus tries to catastrophize every male/female interaction. If he is just generally a big baby about things like that then that is still a feminist issue if that is something that tends to be an issue with men in general.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:31
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SpaceCadetBob posted:Why don't you answer the question asked to you by multiple people in this thread about how solving this problem without one partner communicating to the other that there is a problem can be accomplished? You know, instead of just rage posting at dumb turns of phrase over and over again. I have answered it multiple times. After the first time, I even observed each time that I was repeating myself. But the men here are just Too Smart to absorb information after a mere dozen times reading it, apparently. And that's ignoring that my solution to the problem is quoted in the OP!
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Dec 29, 2016 19:34
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the trump tutelage posted:I don't think anyone's actually discussing that scenario, as much as a tiny brontosaurus tries to catastrophize every male/female interaction. It's pretty much a description of the way my ex and I interacted over housework, so it's not all that farfetched, and its actually quite common - I've met others with similar problems. I almost always gave in because cleaning was easier than arguing. My ex did not pout and flip out that way with his male friends. He was reasonable and accommodating. Part of the problem is the boring grind of housework. He'd be happy to help a pal clean out a garage because that happens only once in a blue moon. He was *not* happy to do the tedious thankless housework that needs to be done every day/week.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:35
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OwlFancier posted:"Any disagreement ever" is exactly the same thing as "there is a distinct trend along gender lines for this issue" yes, that's exactly what I said. I still don't see what a feminist framing brings to the issue except to ask the open-ended, descriptive "why". In a scenario where the man doesn't care whatsoever but the woman does, the only interesting question is "why doesn't he care and why does she?"
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Dec 29, 2016 19:36
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Dec 29, 2016 19:39
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the trump tutelage posted:Sorry for being uncharitable, then. You don't see the benefit of a feminist framing to anything, from what I've seen of you, so perhaps you are not a good person to consult on the matter of what should and should not matter to feminists.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:40
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the trump tutelage posted:Sorry for being uncharitable, then. Because of the-to steal a phrase-politics of tedium. It is because of our patriarchal society that socialized girls to help mom clean up and learn how to do incredibly tedious things: dishes, mopping, the shower, the mirrors, vacuuming, taking out the trash, cleaning out and snaking the drains and so on, and teaches boys to help dad do things like: Christmas lights. And because of this, men consistently underestimate the housework load, and have "low cleanliness standards" aka used to the cleaning fairy doing it all. If you don't understand why this is misogynistic, you might want to take a long hard look in the mirror.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:43
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Tiny Brontosaurus posted:You don't see the benefit of a feminist framing to anything, from what I've seen of you, so perhaps you are not a good person to consult on the matter of what should and should not matter to feminists.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:43
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the trump tutelage posted:I don't expect to matter to anyone on this dying forum. Then why do you even post? Have you considered turning off your monitor?
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Dec 29, 2016 19:45
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the trump tutelage posted:I don't expect to matter to anyone on this dying forum. And having reached phase three of the "I don't see the problem" "The problem is your fault" "Problems aren't solvable anyway so why are you wasting your time!" cycle the goon burrows into his poo poo-lair to slumber and begin anew.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:45
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I am happy and everything is fine.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:45
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Myself, I am happy also. There were no problems in the thread title.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:46
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the trump tutelage posted:Sorry for being uncharitable, then. Happily, feminism already provides an answer to that question: "it may well be because there are socialized trends between men and women which encourage different values, and these differences can be and often are combative, in the interests of a better society we should attempt to resolve this conflict, and examine whether these socialized values are productive." Which, I hope, would lead you to be further interested in assisting with that endeavour.
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Dec 29, 2016 19:48
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