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Dec 29, 2016 23:19
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CJacobs posted:There is no harm in making the games more accessible if it's wholly optional and doesn't force it on you, and I'm saying that as someone who has played literal thousands of hours of the Dark Souls games. I do not care about preserving the sanctity of the creators' intended design philosophy because the Souls games are all about learning how to break the poo poo out of that using the knowledge you've gained past your first playthrough. i think the point is is that the games are so focused around working how they do that implementing an easy mode would be like telling EA to remove the ball from fifa. like, what does an easy mode look like for dark souls? just more HP or less damage from enemies wouldnt really make a difference. you would probably have to rip out the entire combat system and work out a new one just for "easy" mode.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:23
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The DS3 has a good dpad but everything else about it is kinda eh. On the other hand, I'd be hard pressed to think of something I'd improve about the DS4. Some people don't like the feel of the analog sticks and that is fine but I actually like the feel of them a lot. Longer battery life is always a good thing, I guess?Ciaphas posted:See my understanding was that they're adding a configurator kind of like for the steam controller to make games launched by Steam think it's an xinput (thank you stux) device and let it work I just ordered a dongle to mess with it on my PC this weekend cuz they cheap. My desktop doesn't have bluetooth so I've always used a wire to connect controllers to it.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:24
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I'll try again tonight though, have to reinstall the beta steam client for it
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like the whole "difficulty" part of the game comes from the combat systems and enemy placements because you can absolutely just run the game naked with no weapons and still win if you really want, so... what do you do there to make it easier
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Dec 29, 2016 23:24
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bloodychill posted:The DS3 has a good dpad but everything else about it is kinda eh. On the other hand, I'd be hard pressed to think of something I'd improve about the DS4. Some people don't like the feel of the analog sticks and that is fine but I actually like the feel of them a lot. Longer battery life is always a good thing, I guess? I dunno if the light bar thing needs to be there but I guess it's cool
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Dec 29, 2016 23:25
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I maintain that making enemies in souls games do very little damage would make for very boring games. The core tension of the game is that everything can kill you so you have to be careful and develop some mastery of the gameplay systems.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:27
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Help Im Alive posted:I dunno if the light bar thing needs to be there but I guess it's cool the first tiem i noticed it flashing red and blue when i had a wanted level in gta justified it imo
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Dec 29, 2016 23:27
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Lizard Wizard posted:
The Hall of Presidents is going to get increasingly more bizarre as the years go on.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:29
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Stux posted:like the whole "difficulty" part of the game comes from the combat systems and enemy placements because you can absolutely just run the game naked with no weapons and still win if you really want, so... what do you do there to make it easier Keep in mind that this is a discussion about an easy mode for the game, not making the game easier as a whole. My big one would be making enemies more passive, which is what games like DMC do. Enemies crowd you less, have less aggro, don't attack as often. And then there was what I said when this came up earlier about dropping the number values' ramp-up through the game so that you end up with less ballooned damage and health values and thus the player being able to take more hits. Give enemies less poise, or weapons more poise damage. There's a lot that can be done that would require tweaking quite a bit of the game, but would imo make it easier without ruining the feeling of it. Like I said before, you can still make an easy mode be challenging for people who are looking for an easier time. People assume "easy mode" means cakewalk but as DMC very much demonstrates, easy mode can just be normal difficulty for a different skillset. Chomp8645 posted:This is true in games that are single player only. It is false for multiplayer experiences. That's fair, but I think that's easily solvable for Dark Souls by just making there be different invasion/summoning pools for easy and normal modes. The downside there is that nobody would really play easy mode just to help, which imo wouldn't be that big a deal because the game is easier on the whole so you wouldn't need it as much. That, and people experienced with the game would invade in easy mode to be mean to people who are less skilled, but that also happens in the game as it is now by a very wide margin so it wouldn't be all that different. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 23:30
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I still believe that it's a slippery slope and once sales numbers rise, the choices to make the games more accessible will inevitably impact the design process. As other posters said, more options in terms of difficulty is assumed to be a good thing by default, an assumption that I personally don't buy. I don't trust devs enough to believe that, and from soft isn't exactly the pinnacle of QA and consistency. As for the suggested easy mode options outlined above, yeah they are sensible ideas in paper but sound rather resource intensive, which makes me opposed to them. From soft is not good at spreading themselves too thin, let them spend every bit of their limited resources on making another masterpiece instead of waffling around with more tweaks that undermine the design choices made with the original difficulty in mind. KingSlime fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 23:33
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Speaking of easy modes or designs, the new Guilty Gear has a cool mode for new players interested in the look of the game and don't necessarily want to learn it called Stylish Mode where if you just mash buttons the game does cool combos for you. You can't use Stylish mode online so it can be a way to show people "here's some of the wicked stuff you can do in our game!" and at the same time say "check out Training mode and Challenge mode so you can do this stuff on your own before playing online for real".
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Dec 29, 2016 23:34
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CJacobs posted:Keep in mind that this is a discussion about an easy mode for the game, not making the game easier as a whole. My big one would be making enemies more passive, which is what games like DMC do. Enemies crowd you less, have less aggro, don't attack as often. And then there was what I said when this came up earlier about dropping the number values' ramp-up through the game so that you end up with less ballooned damage and health values and thus the player being able to take more hits. Give enemies less poise, or weapons more poise damage. There's a lot that can be done that would require tweaking quite a bit of the game, but would imo make it easier without ruining the feeling of it. except pretty much all of those things are exactly what the game does early on, yet ive still seen multiple people fail to get through the tutorial of a souls game. you would have to set it to the point where enemies barely attacked to have a meaningful difference because the main difficulty early on is based around learning the controls and how souls games work wrt swinging your weapon etc rather than actual difficulty. very little in the games is actually mechanically difficult early on. and there isnt a ramp up, its just how much damage enemies do or how much hp they have, theyre set values. just pushing them down would likely do little to help people who really struggle with the games.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:35
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In the case of Dark Souls you could legitimately make the case that adding an easy mode would harm the brand. Dark Souls, while "hard" in some respects gets an overblown reputation as being hardcore. This is despite the fact that most people can beat it and that summoning help trivializes every boss to a comical degree. But that's not what's important. What's important is that the game is perceived as being "very hard" by the community at large. Whether this is deserved or not (it's not), it is a big driver of sales. People want to be hardcore. Giving the game a "story mode" or whatever like a Bioware game would completely deflate that selling point. Every story you see about how "hardcore" Dark Souls is on gaming websites would vanish. Zero people would be excited for the latest "blind run" by Popular Twitch Person. It would devastate the game's marketing. Nobody would elevate the game as a game for "hardcore gamers" anymore. It would just be another babby game in a sea of babby games. Refusing to add an easy mode is a smart business decision.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:35
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I disagree with that. I think the barrier to entry of the game being hard drags down a lot of interesting potential discussion about it. There are people who will never play Dark Souls who probably would have a lot of cool insight to give, but they'll never do so because the game is hard so they won't play it. And to that end I think the argument that those people shouldn't have an intrinsic right to play the game if they're not willing to accept that challenge, is bullshit. The challenge is totally arbitrary, and could be mitigated with alternatives for those with a genuinely lower skill floor and ceiling than your "standard" gamer. edit: And don't get me wrong, I'm not for them compromising their ideal of making the game be punishing. That's what Dark Souls as a series is built on: Other games are not that punishing, but this one really really is. What I'm saying is that the contention of easy mode = compromising that, is crap. It's just not true.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:36
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Chomp8645 posted:In the case of Dark Souls you could legitimately make the case that adding an easy mode would harm the brand. Dark Souls, while "hard" in some respects gets an overblown reputation as being hardcore. This is despite the fact that most people can beat it and summon help trivializes every bosses. But that's not what's important. What's important is that the game is perceived as being "very hard" by the community at large. Whether this is deserved or not (it's not), it is a big driver of sales. People want to be hardcore. this is dumb though
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Dec 29, 2016 23:36
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In Training posted:Speaking of easy modes or designs, the new Guilty Gear has a cool mode for new players interested in the look of the game and don't necessarily want to learn it called Stylish Mode where if you just mash buttons the game does cool combos for you. You can't use Stylish mode online so it can be a way to show people "here's some of the wicked stuff you can do in our game!" and at the same time say "check out Training mode and Challenge mode so you can do this stuff on your own before playing online for real". Bayonetta 1 had that as well. You just press any button and it positions, combos and dodges stuff for you.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:37
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Dark Souls already has an easy mode and it's called real life. That's right, I went there
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Dec 29, 2016 23:38
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the issue with trying to make an easy mode is that most of the initial difficulty from the game comes from the way it controls in contrast to most other games and the pace of the combat and how that all works together. once youve played a couple of souls games theyre super easy at the start even on a new title because theyre actually quite low tuned to begin with so that new players can learn the controls. after that barrier any "easy mode" considerations are really talking about mid to late game sections and bosses and at that point its questionable who would want or need such a thing if theyve gotten that far.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:38
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CJacobs posted:What I'm saying is that the contention of easy mode = compromising that, is crap. It's just not true. Implementing things that cost time and money are always a compromise in the sense that they cost time and money. Is the game too hard with summons for some of you all? Plz stay away from the video games that I love
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Dec 29, 2016 23:39
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Stux posted:the issue with trying to make an easy mode is that most of the initial difficulty from the game comes from the way it controls in contrast to most other games and the pace of the combat and how that all works together. once youve played a couple of souls games theyre super easy at the start even on a new title because theyre actually quite low tuned to begin with so that new players can learn the controls. after that barrier any "easy mode" considerations are really talking about mid to late game sections and bosses and at that point its questionable who would want or need such a thing if theyve gotten that far. That's fair, I think that at some point you will have learned the mechanics enough that an easy mode would just be playing the game normally, except it's easier. Reaching that point on your first playthrough imo is unlikely, but in the event that happens I think the easier difficulty overall would kind of naturally gate your progression of skill. You'd be good at the game on easy mode, but the 'standard' Dark Souls experience with more aggressive enemies etc would still be foreign to you at that point. KingSlime posted:Implementing things that cost time and money are always a compromise in the sense that they cost time and money.  Dark Souls is my favorite video game of all time, I know how to play the game and I know what I'm talking about when it comes to the design of the thing. You are right that it costs time and money but it'd be worth it to make sure more people would play and enjoy the end product, and I really don't think it'd require sacrificing much to make it possible. If you've got the systems in place, tweaking them is certainly made much easier.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:41
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tap my mountain posted:Dark Souls already has an easy mode and it's called real life. That's right, I went there Man, I loving wish. Give me Dark Souls any day of the year.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:43
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Can't make an easy mode for a game that has "Prepare to Die" in the title!
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Dec 29, 2016 23:45
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https://zippy.gfycat.com/RepentantAptHare.mp4
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Dec 29, 2016 23:46
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Well honestly I strongly disagree that the franchise would benefit from growing it's playerbase. What would more players mean in this context? They already sell well enough. I'm not a dev nor am I in the industry so I don't care about growing the player base i guess. I just want cool modern castlevania games. For the record, having 1000s of hours into a game doesn't necessarily give you the developmental or design insight that you might hope it does. I sure as hell couldnt make my own game, and my opinon on hard mode bad is just that, an outsider opinion from someone who does not make games. Actually in general gamers have terrible opinions on design choices so idk where that puts your or my argument... KingSlime fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 23:46
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Chomp8645 posted:Can't make an easy mode for a game that has "Prepare to Die" in the title! It didn't have Prepare to Die in the title until the DLC came out. edit: Until (arguably) Dark Souls 1's DLC came out and then (definitely) Dark Souls 2 screwed it up, the games were never really about "you're gonna die so fuckin bad and this game is WAY CRAZY HARD and you're gonna be MISERABLE but also like it". The trailers for Dark Souls 1 are all "it will be hard, but you'll survive". The aspect they took was that the game is hard and you're gonna die a lot, but that death will give you the motivation to succeed. They're not about the sheer difficulty as much as you and many many people think they are. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 23:46
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CJacobs posted:That's fair, I think that at some point you will have learned the mechanics enough that an easy mode would just be playing the game normally, except it's easier. Reaching that point on your first playthrough imo is unlikely, but in the event that happens I think the easier difficulty overall would kind of naturally gate your progression of skill. You'd be good at the game on easy mode, but the 'standard' Dark Souls experience with more aggressive enemies etc would still be foreign to you at that point. i just dont think its a feasible request without making an almost parallel game where the controls and combat are entirely different, and i think any easy mode wouldnt actually be any help to getting to the point of playing the game normally because it would need such huge changes to be viable. not all games have to be accessible to everyone. no one is asking forza to put in an fps section to get more sales or make farming simulator into a football game. the "difficulty" from dark souls for new players is entirely down to having to learn the core mechanics of the game rather than any actually scalable difficulty and asking that to be changed is really asking for the game to be a different type of game on a fundamental level.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:47
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A headset is arriving tomorrow and I am waiting until the 1st to begin Bloodborne as part of Japanuary. Gotta say, I am excited.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:51
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Wasn't it Megaman 10 that had an easy mode that put platforms over every pit in the game?
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Dec 29, 2016 23:52
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Phantasium posted:Wasn't it Megaman 10 that had an easy mode that put platforms over every pit in the game?
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Dec 29, 2016 23:53
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Ughhh I wish I could play bloodborne blind all over again
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Dec 29, 2016 23:53
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Phantasium posted:Wasn't it Megaman 10 that had an easy mode that put platforms over every pit in the game? Yeah, it's pretty nuts. Also enemies do like 1/4 the damage and bosses have less health. It's barely recognizable
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Dec 29, 2016 23:53
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The argument that the inclusion of an easy mode would make soulsgames more accessible is fundamentally flawed, because if you're playing on easy mode, you're playing a different game. The game is one way. It's one big monolithic system of gameplay and progression. If you "make it easier", the whole experience falls apart, because it was designed to be a certain way. I think, that if you wanted to make soulsgames more accessible, a separate, comprehensive tutorial is the way to go. Put it right there on the main menu: "Tutorial - If this is your first time playing, start here!" Just don't put that handholdy bullshit in the game where I have to play through it every time I start a run.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:54
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Stux posted:i just dont think its a feasible request without making an almost parallel game where the controls and combat are entirely different, and i think any easy mode wouldnt actually be any help to getting to the point of playing the game normally because it would need such huge changes to be viable. Maybe so, but what spawned this discussion was someone complaining about the games being unapproachable to a casual gamer. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on whether it's feasible or not, but I don't think it'd be that hard. I think it's worth it to at least try, no matter what. Games don't have to be accessible to everyone but imo they should be approachable if you want to try it, and the Dark Souls games are relatively unique in that they just aren't because of how they're designed. All I'm really saying is that if you want to play Dark Souls while starting at a lower skillset than the game expects of you by default, you should be able to and not be miserable. Snak posted:I think, that if you wanted to make soulsgames more accessible, a separate, comprehensive tutorial is the way to go. Put it right there on the main menu: "Tutorial - If this is your first time playing, start here!" It certainly would go a long way to solving the complaints of that fuckin guy from a few pages ago, that's for sure
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Dec 29, 2016 23:54
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Snak posted:The argument that the inclusion of an easy mode would make soulsgames more accessible is fundamentally flawed, because if you're playing on easy mode, you're playing a different game. The game is one way. It's one big monolithic system of gameplay and progression. If you "make it easier", the whole experience falls apart, because it was designed to be a certain way. They did exactly that in Demons Souls
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Dec 29, 2016 23:55
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VideoGames posted:A headset is arriving tomorrow and I am waiting until the 1st to begin Bloodborne as part of Japanuary. I hope you break free of your scheduled gaming shackles by FPSuary or whatever and play all the games all the time
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Dec 29, 2016 23:57
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Help Im Alive posted:I hope you break free of your scheduled gaming shackles by FPSuary or whatever and play all the games all the time I am legit excited to impose a game genre on each month. I feel like the constraints will give way to more fun. I dunno! Just something cool to try 
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Dec 29, 2016 23:58
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Are your theme months accounting for new games being released? I can see that breaking down quickly if not.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:59
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I vividly remember my first playthrough in demons souls was weird and frustrating. Then it clicked. "Oh my god this is like I'm playing mega man, hooooly poo poo" It was extremely refreshing after what, two generations of games without this kind of gameplay
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Dec 29, 2016 23:59
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Phantasium posted:Are your theme months accounting for new games being released? I can see that breaking down quickly if not. They are not. It is entirely games I own before 2017 begins. Anything good released in 2017 gets pushed back. (I do this anyway, I very rarely play a game 'new'.)
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Dec 30, 2016 00:00
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Stux posted:i think the point is is that the games are so focused around working how they do that implementing an easy mode would be like telling EA to remove the ball from fifa. like, what does an easy mode look like for dark souls? just more HP or less damage from enemies wouldnt really make a difference. you would probably have to rip out the entire combat system and work out a new one just for "easy" mode. What? DS combat system isn't advanced at all and an easy mode where you don't get 3 shot by every boss past the early stages would make the game appeal to more players. Most of the fun in DS is exploring and the general atmosphere, making the bosses more a part of that than a roadblock doesn't really remove anything.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:01
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