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But then it wouldn't be like mega man Bruh bosses are a like an exam before you get to move on
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Dec 30, 2016 00:03
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Either way, I think the difference between being approachable and accessible is important. A game can be hard to approach, while still being accessible, and vice versa. The vast majority of video games are one or the other or both, but at a certain skillset and below Dark Souls is neither. And again, I think it's relatively unique in that way. A game can be unapproachable because of its reputation or just how hard it actually is, and Dark Souls fits both. But it's also inaccessible because it has expectations of you as a player that you might not be physically able to match up to- and because of that, you can't learn and get better because the game is more brutal to you than it would be to people who know at least a little of what they're doing. An easy mode for Dark Souls would be for those people. A mode that would allow them to learn from their mistakes and get better without having to butt their head against the game's normal difficulty curve. They get easier as you play them more, but if you can't even get started, then you miss out on a really incredible game because you can't get off the ground to start with. And imo that's not fair. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 00:03
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People missing out on a game doesn't bother me. I recently played through grimrock 2, I loved it! But my friends did not. Didn't care as they're into different stuff, still one of my favorite gaming experiences to date. If it were up to them, they'd throw out the grid based movement first things first KingSlime fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 00:04
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I don't care if it doesn't bother you, if it doesn't then that's fine. That it doesn't bother you that people miss out on the game doesn't matter because it happens whether you care about it or not. It has nothing to do with you, or me, or people who have played the games through already. It's for people who want to play the game but can't, and if you have no empathy for those people then whatever I guess?
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Dec 30, 2016 00:07
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If your worries are "people can't even get started!" then planting a big sign that says "GO UP" at Firelink would accomplish that 10x more than an easy mode. Same for "explain how to upgrade items".
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Dec 30, 2016 00:08
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Guy, we're taking about a form of media not a social justice cause I hate reggae grr it's SO unjust that they haven't catered their sound to my tastes Seriously not sure what you have to gain by caring so much about others enjoying your personal faves
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Dec 30, 2016 00:10
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Chomp8645 posted:If your worries are "people can't even get started!" then planting a big sign that says "GO UP" at Firelink would accomplish that 10x more than an easy mode. Same for "explain how to upgrade items". There is a big sign that says "go up" at firelink, it's the second thing the crestfallen warrior says and he's sitting right at the bonfire at Firelink. The game provides you with ample directional tools already, I actually have no problem with that at all. KingSlime posted:Guy, we're taking about a form of media not a social justice cause Haha here comes the "it's not cool to be passionate about things" posts
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Dec 30, 2016 00:11
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my takeaway from this is that Dark Souls is for people who struggle with the existence of different tastes
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Dec 30, 2016 00:11
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I genuinely don't understand what's so controversial about "structure the game so that more people with lesser ability can play it".
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Dec 30, 2016 00:13
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KingSlime posted:But then it wouldn't be like mega man Yes, this is correct. Dark souls is more nintendo hard than actually difficult..
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Dec 30, 2016 00:14
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CJacobs posted:I genuinely don't understand what's so controversial about "structure the game so that more people with lesser ability can play it". I feel like people actually offered some in depth explanations to this E: Nintendo hard, I like the term. And hell yeah I love me some old school Nintendo hard games, and from soft clearly does as well
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Dec 30, 2016 00:15
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It is good that not all games are for everyone. If they were they would be bland.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:16
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Chomp8645 posted:It is good that not all games are for everyone. If they were they would be bland. Again, there's a distinct difference between the game being for everyone and being playable by everyone. KingSlime posted:I feel like people actually offered some in depth explanations to this And I disagreed and defended my point, instead of just saying "those people can eat dirt, gently caress you got mine" like you did 
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Dec 30, 2016 00:19
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If that was your take away of what I was trying to say, I fear our discussion wasn't very productive. I don't think anyone is opposed to a well implemented easy mode (summons). We just don't believe it would be done well.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:22
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CJacobs posted:Again, there's a distinct difference between the game being for everyone and being playable by everyone. This feels like semantics to me.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:22
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"This movie should be watchable and enjoyable for everyone" said no passionate film nut ever
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Dec 30, 2016 00:23
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Add an Easy Mode by siphoning the resources spent on making New Game Plus
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Dec 30, 2016 00:24
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KingSlime posted:"This movie should be watchable and enjoyable for everyone" said Disney, repeatedly, in emails to J.J Abrams.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:24
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KingSlime posted:"This movie should be watchable and enjoyable for everyone" said no passionate film nut ever It's not comparable because every movie is consumed exactly the same way (except specialty cases like video installations)
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Dec 30, 2016 00:25
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I don't disagree that DS has a ton of flavor, and lots of that originate from the "die alot" theme. Maybe something like adaptive difficulty would work better?
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Dec 30, 2016 00:25
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"This game should cater to me and me alone"
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Dec 30, 2016 00:25
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I feel like this strongly reinforces my point
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Dec 30, 2016 00:27
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Where Dark Souls is a bad game is where it doesn't explain the back end well enough, and that some of the more unique boss weapons aren't nearly as effective as a generic one of the same category. Leveling: Ah, I made it to Blight Town, time to pump Resistance stat! Whoops! Gear upgrades: Hmm, I wonder if this Occult weapon type is very good! So, you can still EXP-grind down the difficulty through leveling up, but you can still mistakenly dump your souls into legitimately useless categories, too. All the hapless zombies are target dummies to practice on and improve the player's sense of timing and stuff. That's as close to an easy mode as they wanted to allow: Letting the player become over-leveled. That all being said, I really enjoyed Dark Souls, and the sometimes bullshit difficulty is the intended experience. There's no sense of triumph on easy mode.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:28
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KingSlime posted:If that was your take away of what I was trying to say, I fear our discussion wasn't very productive. It's fine to not be bothered by people missing out on a game but using that in a discussion about making games more accessible as your standing point is pretty obnoxious. Chomp8645 posted:This feels like semantics to me. It's an important distinction to make, to me. A game being for everyone means that it is targeted at all comers, which Dark Souls is not, and that's fine. Dark Souls is targeted at people who want to tackle the challenge of it, with more recent entries leaning more heavily into that. You don't have to be in the target audience for a game to play it and enjoy it, and until I played it that's how I was. I hated games that punish you as hard as Dark Souls does and I still have trouble swallowing the pill of how brutal being invaded can be. But that leads into my opinion on the other half of it: A game being playable by everyone means that even if you're not the target audience, you can still get into it and enjoy it from a basic level onward. Most games are the latter and some of them are even both. Plants vs Zombies is my go-to example, anyone can learn to play that game and it is universally targeted at anybody even if you've never touched a videogame before. But again, Dark Souls pushes away the latter when imo they should welcome it.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:28
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You people are getting very defensive about games having options.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:29
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Your obession with championing for this cause is frankly something i don't understand, it's not like the player base isn't large already. I miss out on tons of games all the time because they're not for me, the world keep spinning. But hey neither you or I make games so
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Dec 30, 2016 00:32
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Everyone should stop this discussion and go play HITMAN instead imo
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Dec 30, 2016 00:32
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Okay.What was up with all the bullshit hand holding in that game? I had to turn all the prompts off before I could really enjoy myself. gently caress accessibility
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Dec 30, 2016 00:33
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Phantasium posted:Wasn't it Megaman 10 that had an easy mode that put platforms over every pit in the game? Later megaman games are a pretty good example for this. Starting with zero 4 they added easy modes that trivialized to an insane extent what were not particularly hard games. Easy modes to breeze by in games with other major qualities like rpgs is one thing, but in relatively short games that are mostly about combat/platforming/etc it just provides a gutless experience. Plus most games provide "outs" for less skilled players on the regular difficulty anyway. Few things are too hard when you can refill your health a dozen times
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Dec 30, 2016 00:33
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Ciaphas posted:Everyone should stop this discussion and go play HITMAN instead imo This discussion reminded me to check out how much 1001 spikes is discounted: -67%. It's pretty much the definition of a fair but gently caress you game, so I decided to gift bomb some people with it. If you like platformers and hate yourself, buy it. It's also really fun in co-op which just about 0 platformers have accomplished ever.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:34
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Chomp8645 posted:This feels like semantics to me. It's not though. You can't make a 4X game that everyone will like (because not everyone likes 4X games), but there's a world of difference between one that has a good tutorial and clearly explains how its systems work through tooltips and feedback mechanisms etc, and one that is unnecessarily obtuse and arcane. Part of the fun of Dark Souls is discovery and exploration but the game takes it too far and applies it to basic mechanics; the Dried Finger in DS1 is good, Poise in DS3 is not.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:34
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In Training posted:It's not comparable because every movie is consumed exactly the same way (except specialty cases like video installations) Things like "difficult" art films make use of alienating stylistic techniques, lack of explanation or closure, and purposeful obtuseness, though, and they reward people who have a lot of knowledge of cinema history and form, and who want something more mentally taxing than just a story delivered to them. So on that level the analogy holds
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Dec 30, 2016 00:34
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Doctor Spaceman posted:It's not though. You can't make a 4X game that everyone will like (because not everyone likes 4X games), but there's a world of difference between one that has a good tutorial and clearly explains how its systems work through tooltips and feedback mechanisms etc, and one that is unnecessarily obtuse and arcane. Part of the fun of Dark Souls is discovery and exploration but the game takes it too far and applies it to basic mechanics; the Dried Finger in DS1 is good, Poise in DS3 is not. I agree with this 100%. Like totally. But "explain the game better" is not what was being called for. An Easy Mode was being called for.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:35
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KingSlime posted:Your obession with championing for this cause is frankly something i don't understand, it's not like the player base isn't large already. Someone has to care about it or it'll never get changed. It's not an "obsession" to be willing to defend my point instead of just saying it and moving on, it's not like having an involved conversation with someone about a topic one time means it's a clutched pearl you're never gonna let go of. The reason I'm adamant about it is because I've seen it happen firsthand and it really sucks to see people give up on a game they otherwise would really like because they just cannot play it as effectively as it asks of them. It's genuinely important to me. Video games are great, and for a game to turn people away at the door in a way that (again, imo, not some of the other people itt's o) is totally fixable sucks.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:35
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Charliefoxtrot, you explained that way better than i did, and without tossing in a passive insult for fun. Nice!
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Dec 30, 2016 00:36
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Klaus Kinski posted:You people are getting very defensive about games having options. I feel like the point isn't that options are bad but that the option being offered would be bad and make the game look worse to the types of people who would want it rather than just being blindsided by the difficulty in the first place. While those games have environments and story telling it's not like they're grand elaborate things and the notion that somebody needs to get through just to experience things that most people don't pick up on until they read a wiki page anyway is kind of silly.'' Like few people actually give a drat about the plot of a Mega Man game they just care about the challenges and without the challenges they're just pretty levels to walk through? I don't think it's unreasonable to say it would be nice for everyone to play any given game but if in so doing you erase the point of the game then, yeah.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:38
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Lack of transparency about what exactly stats, skills, upgrades etc do besides vague, possibly inaccurate descriptors is often a big issue with games, yeah. And then you have the games where skills or even whole stats are bugged and don't work. 
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Dec 30, 2016 00:41
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Motto posted:Lack of transparency about what exactly stats, skills, upgrades etc do besides vague, possibly inaccurate descriptors is often a big issue with games, yeah. That is a legitimate point, the stats n junk could be less obtuse
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Dec 30, 2016 00:42
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Phantasium posted:I feel like the point isn't that options are bad but that the option being offered would be bad and make the game look worse to the types of people who would want it rather than just being blindsided by the difficulty in the first place. I really don't think making the bosses, which are the main roadblocks of any souls game, easier would be erasing the point of the game. Getting owned while exploring a new area is fun and exciting, being careful when rounding a corner or crossing a frail bridge is fun. Corpserunning to a boss for the 20th time is not fun because you didn't know what direction to dodge on that particular attack is not. I maintain, the DS bosses are cool setpieces but lovely fights.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:44
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Should there be a 20% speed Super Hexagon to make the game more accessible for new players? If not, then why Dark souls? I loving love Super Hexagon and VVVVVV and I wish more people could experience those games the way I did but adding an easy mode completely defeats the purpose.
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Dec 30, 2016 00:45
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