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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Rommel was always a complicit member of the party, and besides the inevitable sort of atrocities that in combat come up to, the Afrika Korps also turned a blind eye to Einsatzkommando activity and the destruction of the Libyan and Tunisian Jewish population. This reminds me, while I heard about the destruction of Europe's Jews over and over again in school, the destruction of Libyan and Tunisian Jews was never mentioned, not even in passing. Is there anything I can read about what happened to them? They aren't even mentioned in the WWII-documentaries I watched. (I wasn't even aware that there were enough Jews in North Africa to make sending Einsatzkommandos a worthwile activity for the Nazis.)
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Dec 30, 2016 01:51
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BalloonFish posted:You referring to my mention of what they did with time-expired Merlins? That wasn't common but it did happen. It happened before the engines left the factory, too: If a Merlin engine block, crankshaft or cylinder head fell outside certain specifications for use as an aero-engine (which needed to reliably put out huge amounts of power for a brief period) it may still be found suitable for building up as a Meteor, the unsupercharged, de-tuned version for powering tanks (which had to reliably put of a small amount of power for a long period). An engine considered 'junk' for aero use could still be stripped, repaired and rebuilt for land-based uses. Oooohhhhh. OK, that makes sense. For some reason I read this as only the newest engines being used in front line fighters, which struck me as...kinda extravagant.
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Dec 30, 2016 02:31
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Libluini posted:This reminds me, while I heard about the destruction of Europe's Jews over and over again in school, the destruction of Libyan and Tunisian Jews was never mentioned, not even in passing. Is there anything I can read about what happened to them? They aren't even mentioned in the WWII-documentaries I watched. I'll try to see what I can dig up. Part of it is that the Blackshirts et.al. didn't really make anti-semitism a big part of their ideology until Hitler they started sucking up to Hitler. That said, Libyan Jews were more at risk than Jews in Italy, for a couple of reasons. I'll try to find the article about it, but the author there had it pegged to a combination of things: Italian settlers (broadly) self-selected for fascist dickhole-ism, Italian colonial infrastructure was already set up in a way to divide colonist/colonized, racism (Libyan Jews looked North African, Italian Jews didn't?), more direct and sustained German influence, and the swingy back and forth nature of the front lines led to a bit of retaliation against local populations that had helped/celebrated when the Allies had the upper hand. Most of the surviving communities bailed for Israel once the whole Pan-Arab nationalism thing fired up.
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Dec 30, 2016 03:28
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Libluini posted:This reminds me, while I heard about the destruction of Europe's Jews over and over again in school, the destruction of Libyan and Tunisian Jews was never mentioned, not even in passing. Is there anything I can read about what happened to them? They aren't even mentioned in the WWII-documentaries I watched. The part I'm always surprised at is that the collective memory of the holocaust is so centered on Jews. Granted they were the major targeted demographic (and about half the total killed I think?), but it's strange that you never really hear about how many political enemies, assorted Slavs, homosexuals, and other "undesirables" also got put to into the system.
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Dec 30, 2016 07:00
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:The part I'm always surprised at is that the collective memory of the holocaust is so centered on Jews. Granted they were the major targeted demographic (and about half the total killed I think?), but it's strange that you never really hear about how many political enemies, assorted Slavs, homosexuals, and other "undesirables" also got put to into the system. and in some cases, prosecuted both of those groups under nazi laws after the war
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Dec 30, 2016 07:08
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Phone posting so I won't go into details but after the war there was a LOT of wrangling for who got the mantle of victims of nazism. Early French films on the camps for example REALLY play up the fact that some resistance members went to them. For the Soviets and their allied states it was all about persecuted socialists/communists. Holocaust commemoration as we know it in the west today really comes out of the events surrounding the eichmann trial, the Frankfurt Auschwitz trials, and eventually a handful of wildly successful media events that really cemented the modern popular understanding. Seriously the 1978 NBC Holocaust can not be understated. Also the state of Israel kind of hammers on it. The Roma, homosexuals, etc don't really have a government pushing their commemoration. The socialists kind of did (soviet Holocaust historiography is a whole other amazing thing) but the Cikd War and its results left us with a very west-centered narrative that glosses over it in major ways.
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Dec 30, 2016 07:38
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Homosexuals just need to declare that Sweden is their state and Anyways, on unrelated matter: cost-per-unit has been mentioned and it's something I fail to understand. Yesterday I raed about the Zumwalts, in that it was a 9 bil project to build 32 ships that ended as a 22 bil project for 3 (three) ships, which each ship now costing 7 bil. How the gently caress does that work? I mean, do you allocate 9 billion and you hope that's going to be enought for the RnD and the physical assembly of the ships, but then RnD overruns or something, eating the assembly part of the budget allocation, so you need to throw more cash into it, and eventually you cut down the number of thr ships because you can't assign any more money to build them? How does an individual unit get more or less expensive, especially when there's a hard limit on the lowest cost, since there's a physical ship to build frpm physical materials and labor? Like, if you ramped up the F-35 production for the war, how would that make them cheaper if you would have to be paying additional money for the physical side of the matter on top of the money sunk into RnD? Back to Zumwalt, cutting down on the ships somehow increased the price of their future space cannon round to 800 000 when say Excalibur is only 68k a pop. How? And could this bullshit be avoided if the corps had to do RnD entirely by themselves, only presenting the finished product at a flat price with some bulk discounts maybe? Because what I see from F-35 and Zumwalts is that, say, LockMart comes up with a total pipedream plane drawn on a napkin, ensures everyone that it's great and it will cost X amount of money, but it turns out that whoever drew the plans doesn't know how planes or ships work and the end result is much more work trying to chase the dream. Ramble Ramble Rant
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Dec 30, 2016 09:28
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I'm interested in the Malayan Emergency. I see there's been a number of films, but they're all from the seventies, are they any good?
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Dec 30, 2016 09:44
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Basically your project cost for a defence contract is made up of two things: 1. R&D cost for the whole project 2. The cost to physically build the items that have been ordered What's happening with things like the Zumwalt, F-35 etc. is that when a contract is awarded, the defence firm will have built some number of prototypes for the purposes of competitive testing and/or to demonstrate the technology available. This is not the final product, as there are usually a lot of kinks to iron out once production design begins, the impact of which will depend on the project and specific design in question. The defence firm ultimately needs to be paid for materials and labour to conduct R&D - they will be making a design to the DoD standards, so if the design is a tough one to meet (F-35 having to build everything around one engine due to the -B variant is a good example) it's not necessarily just the defence company trying to milk money. What eventually happens is that if cost overruns occur, this will jack up the price of R&D that will be have to be paid for anyway, so Congress/whoever might decide to cut back on the number of units to order to reduce the overall cost, since they won't have to pay for the additional units to be built. So in the example of the Zumwalt, if congress still wanted to order 32 ships the project would cost a whole lot more than 22 billion, but the unit cost would be a lot lower since that cost would be spread across more units. Procurement is in a pretty bad place at the minute in a lot of ways, some political and some technological. The US military is going pretty hard in on new technology for the purposes of things like stealth, and building new combat vehicles with untried technology has always been a risky process lined with failures throughout history. Political decisions to go for things like concurrency have not helped matters though, and have created huge problems as individual components are designed separately and simultaneously but then do not work together as anticipated on the assembled vehicle, forcing cycles of redesign that has knock on effects on multiple systems, that require redesign... A good example of the opposite of recent procurement woes is the Black Hawk. That was built by Sikorsky who were is pretty bad financial trouble, so they submitted a design that was as risk-free as possible, using new technology that was not present on current military helicopters but had been proven in other helicopter designs, and ironing out as many of the trouble points prior to competitive testing. The Army's specifications were for a evolutionary aircraft rather than a revolutionary one, and is probably what we're going to see a return to since it's unlikely congress is going to want to repeat the budgetary disasters of the F-35, LCS, Zumwalt etc. especially considering many combat vehicles are nearing the end of their service life and their current replacements are not going to come in sufficient quantity to fully replace the inventory. As for R&D, the answer is that firms do their own in-house R&D in order to come up with the kinds of new technology that they want to put in new designs. No company in the world would be able to eat the R&D costs of something like the F-35 and stay functioning though, especially since most of the costs have come after competitive trials and LockMarts design was accepted for production. Defence projects are some of the most expensive things in the world, and there is a reason that you need major states in order to pay for new ones.
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Dec 30, 2016 10:03
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Were there any notable times when a wave of drunkenness did not ensue? That is, a group of soldiers were sober and responsible to everyone's considerable confusion?
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Dec 30, 2016 10:08
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The Lone Badger posted:Were there any notable times when a wave of drunkenness did not ensue? That is, a group of soldiers were sober and responsible to everyone's considerable confusion? Never. (Please someone who knows more, prove me wrong) Back on procurement: how do other countries handle it, compared to the US? From an outside perspective, it seems like the UK throws money at us and prays we deliver while the eu countries rely on their own mechanisms, Russia and China do their own thing (??? What is it???) and everyone else relies on gear from the four sources I listed while Japan and Israel build stuff internally when they can.
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Dec 30, 2016 10:43
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JcDent posted:... This is definitely not unique to the military. Some of it is that when you're doing something new it is hard to predict what the costs will be, some is that is that R + D means upfront fixed costs which are gradually amortized as you build more units, and then a ton of it is that people are just really, really overoptimistic and bad at planning. When you look at the projections for almost any R + D or infrastructure project you'll see hugely wrong estimates. Phone posting, so apologies for not having citations but a ton of academics have researched this at various levels. Reviews of the costs of public works projects vs the estimated costs show that it's normal to spend twice as much as expected on average, with a lot going to 10x or more. I'm mostly familiar w/ the psychological reasons behind this. People almost always underestimate the time it will take them to complete tasks -- this is called the planning fallacy. Studies have found this with people carrying out lab exercises, students estimating time to complete real world homework, and professionals across a variety of fields. When you're thinking about how a project is going to go, you tend to naturally think of the best case scenario since that's most obvious and what is most relevant to actually completing the task step-by-step. There are a million different ways things could go wrong, and your brain is lazy and won't look into these. This happens even when it's in the person's best interest to plan accurately, and usually even when you tell them to make the most generous estimate possible. This is magnified in group decision making -- you tend to get an echo chamber where everyone is pressured to be optimistic. Combine this with the pressure to put forward a competitive bid and the minimal info you have and it's very, very easy to end up with a seriously wrong estimate even if you honestly are trying to be accurate and have substantial expert knowledge.
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Dec 30, 2016 10:43
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Hunt11 posted:From my limited research this is technically true. The North African campaign lacked many of the elements that made other areas of World War II so horrifying, such as no real interest in targeting the population at large in the area and the lack of the type of tensions that lead to routine violations of things such as the rules surrounding POWs. Of course this is mostly because the campaign ended before the Axis could really get started with projects such as transitioning concentration camps for Jews into death camps and more importantly the Nazis were unable to force their way into Palestine to start butchering every Jew they could find. Also as a general point just because an area of combat is considered the least bad in terms of World War II does not stop it from being horrifying. How many Jews lived in Palestine before the war? MikeCrotch posted:The current USA also isn't in two simultaneous transoceanic wars with peer competitor industrial powers though. I'm sure if there was a planned wartime economy Lockmart could start cracking out planes a bit faster than they do now. Those history books will be cave paintings.
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Dec 30, 2016 11:21
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Hogge Wild posted:How many Jews lived in Palestine before the war? About 384,000 in 1936 (from a population of around 1.3 million in the Mandate).
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Dec 30, 2016 12:16
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Nebakenezzer posted:I would like a few sources if you know of any! I now realize that my knowledge of this is pretty foggy. Just from you and mr. Ballonfish, part of this is the sheer complexity of base engines, power to weight ratios, fuel, turbo and superchargers...let alone things like reliability and useful life. And this is something I know we talked about before in the last thread, because I was scratching my head then, too, about what made the Germans have so many power plant failures compared to the allies. Allied Piston Engines of WWII is just awesome. It isn't just for plane nerds or history nerds either, anyone is any sort of a gearhead will love it. I'll also take any opportunity to plug America's Hundred Thousand which is just about the best technical history book ever written on any subject. If you're just wanting to learn about engines those should pretty much scratch the itch as all of the WWII aero engines were more or less the same thing. Unfortunately there has never been a study the quality of AHT done for other nation's aircraft (to my knowledge); Luftwaffe Combat Aircraft Development Production Operations is probably the closest thing. It is very good but not AS good. Finally I'll plug one of my more favorite primary source things: A bunch of geniuses commissioned by the air force to write up a comprehensive overview of future aero propulsion systems. It is obnoxiously technical and obviously isn't meant for the layperson (most of it is over my head for instance, especially the "math"); the reason I post this is it does a great job of outlining all of the technical issues engine designers were facing during the later part of the war, and gives this really unique perspective about the possibilities of various jets and rockets as propulsion mechanisms long before any of the stuff became technically viable. Specifically and probably needless to say they were quite enamored with nuclear power as a means to propel an aircraft. edit - I'll try and do a writeup on the Homare; it kind of sucks that nearly all of the primary/technical stuff on Japanese gadgets remains in Japanese but I'll do my best ;/ (probably part of the reason I'm so fascinated by it because it is kind of a mystery) bewbies fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 15:31
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Cyrano4747 posted:Phone posting so I won't go into details but after the war there was a LOT of wrangling for who got the mantle of victims of nazism. Early French films on the camps for example REALLY play up the fact that some resistance members went to them. For the Soviets and their allied states it was all about persecuted socialists/communists. I'd be very interested in hearing a bit more about this. Was it any way similar to the Anti-Fascist Myth in the GDR or am I totally off base?
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Dec 30, 2016 16:08
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Hogge Wild posted:How many Jews lived in Palestine before the war? Adding to the number already quoted there were about 200,000 Jews in Axis controlled lands in North Africa so over .5 million possible additional victims of the Holocaust if the Axis had won in Africa.
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Dec 30, 2016 16:13
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the JJ posted:I'll try to see what I can dig up. Part of it is that the Blackshirts et.al. didn't really make anti-semitism a big part of their ideology until Hitler they started sucking up to Hitler. That said, Libyan Jews were more at risk than Jews in Italy, for a couple of reasons. I'll try to find the article about it, but the author there had it pegged to a combination of things: Italian settlers (broadly) self-selected for fascist dickhole-ism, Italian colonial infrastructure was already set up in a way to divide colonist/colonized, racism (Libyan Jews looked North African, Italian Jews didn't?), more direct and sustained German influence, and the swingy back and forth nature of the front lines led to a bit of retaliation against local populations that had helped/celebrated when the Allies had the upper hand. Thanks! (Also I think you meant Mussolini sucking up to Hitler, not Hitler to Clone-Hitler.  )PittTheElder posted:The part I'm always surprised at is that the collective memory of the holocaust is so centered on Jews. Granted they were the major targeted demographic (and about half the total killed I think?), but it's strange that you never really hear about how many political enemies, assorted Slavs, homosexuals, and other "undesirables" also got put to into the system. Now that at least I've avoided, since during the time I was in school, homosexuals, the mentally ill, political enemies and the Sinti and Roma all got mentioned many, many times. Sure, they were added as an afterthought after Jews, but they were mentioned as victims in our education. That, and people like the Weiße Rose getting executed for pamphlets, made always for an awfully strong taste of evil.
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Dec 30, 2016 16:26
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Back on procurement: how do other countries handle it, compared to the US? From an outside perspective, it seems like the UK throws money at us and prays we deliver while the eu countries rely on their own mechanisms, Russia and China do their own thing (??? What is it???) and everyone else relies on gear from the four sources I listed while Japan and Israel build stuff internally when they can. The British tend to throw tons of money at things that don't really work, such as: L85 rifle that was constantly breaking until H&K came along and threw away everything that wasn't the outer shell Nimrod AEW3, an attempt to turn a 1940s jet airliner into a modern AWACS during the '80s. It didn't work because it had two radars at the front and rear of the fuselage, which the computers were too slow to keep up with. It also was ugly as sin. Nimrod MRA4, an attempt to turn a 1940s jet airliner into a modern maritime patrol aircraft during the '00s. It didn't work because it turns out that it's expensive to modernise hand-built aircraft that were built during the '60s. Also, the Nimrod has a chance of exploding in midair. Their new aircraft carriers which they won't be able to afford planes for, or indeed afford to sail at the same time. Their new destroyers, which can't sail anywhere it's a bit warm because the engine breaks if you do. Their copy of the American spec ops Chinook, which was so botched they were restricted to clear weather flying during daylight, perfect for special operations work in Afghanistan
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Dec 30, 2016 16:30
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Foreman Domai posted:I'd be very interested in hearing a bit more about this. Was it any way similar to the Anti-Fascist Myth in the GDR or am I totally off base? They're closely related. For those who don't know, the "Anti-Fascist Myth" that he's referencing is the idea that the GDR was the one true heir to the anti-fascist tradition in German politics. The Nazis hated communists above all other (political) groups, so obviously the post-war German state founded by the survivors of the anti-socialist and communist purges of the 30s must be the one with the most sterling anti-nazi credentials. Since it was a state founded by the victims of fascism the GDR was therefore absolved of the crimes of that state. It was a way for them to proclaim a completely fresh start while at the same time setting up the BRD as the obvious heir to National Socialism. Of course that wasn't quite true. The top level leadership might have had a cleaner past than in the West (the judiciary is a particuarly galling example of this), but once you got past that level denazification was just as much hand waving and bullshit in the east as it was in the west. It also nicely side-stepped any need for coming to terms with the crimes of the previous generation like the west did, so you had the pleasant combination of incomplete denazification and the firm belief that those were someone else's crimes. The fact that the former DDR is were you see the most far right activity today isn't 100% the result of this (it's also the part of the country that's in the dumps economically speaking) but it really, really didn't help. As far as the Cold War Soviet understanding of the Holocaust (here "Soviet" can broadly be read as the eastern bloc - I'm most familiar with Germany, fairly familiar with Russia, and not at all familiar with Poland et. al, but my understanding is that they're similar. I'm sure a Pole will be along to correct me soon) went all the people who died were subsumed under the category of "victims of fascism." Jew murdered in the Lodz ghetto? Victim of fascism. Gay guy killed by the police? Victim of fascism. Soviet civilian dead due to the progress of the war? Victim of fascism. Communist politician killed for his views? Victim of fascism. The net result is that it lumped everyone into one group at the same time as the state was making the most hay out of the dead Soviet civilians and murdered foreign politicians. This was all part of the post-war construction of the Great Patriotic War as the major defining moment in Soviet (and indeed Eastern European Communist) history. They didn't deny that a bunch of Jews died (and anyone with a more than passing familiarity with the Nazis understood they weren't fans of them) but since all the public discourse was concentrated on addressing all victims as a single group they kind of faded from prominence. Compare that to the west, where it starts in a similar situation but within a few decades you have established that there was something uniquely hosed up about the way the Jews were targeted. Lemkin coined the term genocide during the war, but it's a few decades later that you really have it established as something apart from your run of the mill political killings or war crimes against civilians. The understanding of the anti-Jewish genocide as a thing separate from the millions of other dead civilians produced by the war is much more a thing in the west than the warsaw pact during most of the cold war. Note that I'm mostly talking about the Stalin - Khrushchev era here. Things get a lot more nuanced in the 70s and especially the 80s, but there is a lot of ground work laid in this period that still informs discussions later. As an aside, you also have to map this against the general issue of Soviet Antisemitism. Things got pretty loving bad under Stalin, merely lovely under Khrushchev, and it wasn't until Brezhnev in 1981 that the government really begins to push against it.
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Dec 30, 2016 16:41
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Libluini posted:Now that at least I've avoided, since during the time I was in school, homosexuals, the mentally ill, political enemies and the Sinti and Roma all got mentioned many, many times. Sure, they were added as an afterthought after Jews, but they were mentioned as victims in our education. That, and people like the Weiße Rose getting executed for pamphlets, made always for an awfully strong taste of evil. This is very much a post-90s thing.
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Dec 30, 2016 16:43
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Quinntan posted:The British tend to throw tons of money at things that don't really work, such as: God it is all so rubbish I feel patriotic  .It is kind if sad we can't seem to get the hang of things that aren't lumps of metal or wood.
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Dec 30, 2016 16:45
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Quinntan posted:Nimrod AEW3, an attempt to turn a 1940s jet airliner into a modern AWACS during the '80s. It didn't work because it had two radars at the front and rear of the fuselage, which the computers were too slow to keep up with. It also was ugly as sin. C'mon man, you can't talk about the Nimrod AWACs and not post a picture  hello ladies
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Dec 30, 2016 16:48
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Even the loving planes were clearly desperately necking booze waiting for the Cold War balloon to go up.
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Dec 30, 2016 16:49
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Cyrano4747 posted:This is very much a post-90s thing. I went to school throughout the 80s and 90s, so nope. Definitely not just a post-90s thing. At least not in Germany.
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Dec 30, 2016 17:09
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Libluini posted:I went to school throughout the 80s and 90s, so nope. Definitely not just a post-90s thing. At least not in Germany. Germany is WAAAAAY ahead of the curve when it comes to teaching people about the holocaust in public schools. edit: Well, "Germany" as in the BRD. edit 2: it's also an issue of curricular focus. I'm sure you'll find mention of the fact that it wasn't just Jews in an American high school textbook from the 80s, but it's not going to see anything like the emphasis that you see later. Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 17:10
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Cyrano4747 posted:Germany is WAAAAAY ahead of the curve when it comes to teaching people about the holocaust in public schools. Considering what I've heard about American education on SA makes me be genuinely surprised every time I learn they even have textbooks for something. I keep expecting American schools to still work with stone tablets.
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Dec 30, 2016 17:14
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SeanBeansShako posted:Even the loving planes were clearly desperately necking booze waiting for the Cold War balloon to go up. British Aerospace gave the plane Derby Neck to make the engines feel at home
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Dec 30, 2016 17:15
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Libluini posted:Considering what I've heard about American education on SA makes me be genuinely surprised every time I learn they even have textbooks for something. I keep expecting American schools to still work with stone tablets. SA engages in a lot of hyperbole. The problem with American schools is the unevenness of quality. A blighted school district in an inner city with gently caress all for a budget and high teacher turn over is truly lovely, but your average suburban public school is in the same ballpark as a western European one. Well, maybe not Finland. Those fuckers have some good game.
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Dec 30, 2016 17:16
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Libluini posted:I keep expecting American schools to still work with stone tablets. Oh, some people would like them to! 
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Dec 30, 2016 17:27
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What's the Japanese take on the atrocities of the war? They don't have the same sort of pop culture reinforcement of the horrors of their crimes that the nazis do.
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Dec 30, 2016 17:36
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Atrocities?
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Dec 30, 2016 17:45
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SlothfulCobra posted:What's the Japanese take on the atrocities of the war? Mostly denial at this point. quote:The charges were made this week [2014] by Naoki Hyakuta, a nationalist writer and close friend of Abe, who was recently appointed to the board of governors of the Japan Broadcasting Corp., commonly known as NHK. http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/18/opinion/la-oe-guttentag-japan-nanking-20130118 etc., etc.
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Dec 30, 2016 17:45
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Cyrano4747 posted:Germany is WAAAAAY ahead of the curve when it comes to teaching people about the holocaust in public schools. I went to a Catholic school that was connected enough to get a mid 90s speech from Lech Walesa (which would have owned a lot more if I hadn't been 10 at the time) so take this as you will, but we heard all about Maximilian Kolbe and even Martin Niemoller despite his unpapistness.
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Dec 30, 2016 17:54
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The Comfort Women agreement worked out a year ago between Japan and South Korea is a pretty good representation of their post-war stance, I think. Basically they came to an agreement, but one of the main Japanese conditions is that a memorial for the Comfort Women outside of their embassy in Seoul had to be removed. Essentially: okay we'll pay, but now you have to pretend it never happened.
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Dec 30, 2016 17:55
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Koramei posted:The Comfort Women agreement worked out a year ago between Japan and South Korea is a pretty good representation of their post-war stance, I think. Basically they came to an agreement, but one of the main Japanese conditions is that a memorial for the Comfort Women outside of their embassy in Seoul had to be removed. Essentially: okay we'll pay, but now you have to pretend it never happened. There was a recent lawsuit to try and remove the City of Glendale's statue to the comfort women as well. http://www.latimes.com/socal/glendale-news-press/news/tn-gnp-me-comfort-women-20160804-story.html
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Dec 30, 2016 18:10
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Cyrano4747 posted:SA engages in a lot of hyperbole. The problem with American schools is the unevenness of quality. A blighted school district in an inner city with gently caress all for a budget and high teacher turn over is truly lovely, but your average suburban public school is in the same ballpark as a western European one. Well, maybe not Finland. Those fuckers have some good game. Finnish school history (with the rest of our public-sphere culture) has a serious tendency to whitewash the last 120+ years or so. Nationalist terrorists are usually called "activists", when discussing the Civil War there's usually a thing going on where people say "well there was the White Terror but also a Red Terror so fair's fair", except that the Red Terror was unorganized killings that the Red govt tried to curb, while the White govt encouraged revenge killings, sent women and children to the camps and never tried anyone for war crimes. And then there's the thing about WW2 where Finland sent Russian civilians to concentration camps where a lot of them somehow starved to death and collaborated the the Einsatzgruppen and turned over Russian Jewish prisoners without batting an eye.
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Dec 30, 2016 18:15
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It wasn't for a long, long time after we'd covered the nazis that I knew gay people had been sent to death camps, and even longer until I knew where the pink triangle came from. The killing of communists and roma and such was also a late starter. I knew about the killings of the disabled pretty early, though. Up until I was maybe sixteen or seventeen I would've said literally everyone the nazis killed (well, as in, as part of an extermination programme, rather than just from air raids or in firefights) was jewish, and I went to a reasonably good UK secondary school in early 2000.
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Dec 30, 2016 18:38
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Shoot, I was actually taught early on that Hitler and co were gay, with a very heavy implication that's that why they were such assholea.
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Dec 30, 2016 18:42
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Cyrano4747 posted:SA engages in a lot of hyperbole. The problem with American schools is the unevenness of quality. A blighted school district in an inner city with gently caress all for a budget and high teacher turn over is truly lovely, but your average suburban public school is in the same ballpark as a western European one. Variation in educational outcomes is greatest between rich and poor districts, even within the same state, because money is allocated at that level. However, I think non-Americans should also understand that nearly all educational policy is set by state governments, and they have considerably more leeway than even other federal systems, like Germany's. Public education systems in the Northeast and much of the Midwest (i.e. Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Illinois, etc.) are fairly healthy at the state level. Schools in poor areas of Massachusetts or New York will still perform more poorly than those in wealthy areas, because they are less well-funded and because the students will be negatively impacted by their socio-economic disadvantages, but on average they benefit from the state government having some degree of commitment to sound educational policy. States in the South, West, and Southwest don't really have that, and the schools suffer for it. There is even a lot of variation between states with bad systems, as to the exact way they manage to be terrible. Texas and Louisiana both suck, but in fundamentally different ways.
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Dec 30, 2016 18:44
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